Tech Universities for all

Max Powers

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/cabinet-signs-off-on-plans-for-three-new-technological-universities-1.1410620

So WIT and Carlow to form one, Cork and Tralee IT, another with Dublin ITs. As usual, this is a hotch-potch step towards renaming all of them Tech Unis. Galway/Mayo failed for now, it wont be long though before they do get one, along with midlands. I suppose, once this is in place, a campaign for investment in 'Tech Uni SE' will need to start to get it up to proper Uni status, what we need.

Maybe im being a bit cynical, but we need to be able to attract business and compete with Unis for funding, I cant see this helping those goals much unless major changes accompany the name change

MOD WARNING:
This is not turning into another thrash the government thread, as such I request that people stay on topic.
I must also remind people to attack the post and not the poster! I will not remind people of this again!

Sully

Pessimism even with good news, chriky can we never be positive! Everything is a downer! We should be delighted with this news after years of campaigning and neglect by successive governments. The South East is on its knees and needs this welcome boost. Did you expect that it was just WIT that was getting upgraded? It was well known that Cork & Dublin would also be getting the approval, to be fair. I agree if there all upgraded it would be farcical but I was never thinking it would be just WIT being upgraded.

The government followed through on their commitment for a University for the South East, despite many repeatedly saying (especially on this forum and using it as a stick to poke me) they wouldn't. They quickly started the process to allow for a Tech University, got the colleges to submit applications and have now approved WIT. There in government just over two years and they have done more than Fianna Fail who have been in government for decades. Credit where credit is due, to be fair.

Yes Boss

A typically ignorant, political decision. Only in Ireland!:rolleyes:

O Riain

Sully wrote: »

Pessimism even with good news, chriky can we never be positive! Everything is a downer! We should be delighted with this news after years of campaigning and neglect by successive governments. The South East is on its knees and needs this welcome boost. Did you expect that it was just WIT that was getting upgraded? It was well known that Cork & Dublin would also be getting the approval, to be fair. I agree if there all upgraded it would be farcical but I was never thinking it would be just WIT being upgraded.

The government followed through on their commitment for a University for the South East, despite many repeatedly saying (especially on this forum and using it as a stick to poke me) they wouldn't. They quickly started the process to allow for a Tech University, got the colleges to submit applications and have now approved WIT. There in government just over two years and they have done more than Fianna Fail who have been in government for decades. Credit where credit is due, to be fair.

WRONG! The only way this was ever going to be a benefit for Waterford and the South East was if only Waterford/Carlow and possibly DIT got it. Now it is clear that every I.T. in the country will be able to become a technological uni. I said from the start that this would be a sham if other I.Ts got it and that is seemingly just what it is. Another sham for Waterford.

Why are you once again trying to score points for your party for what is obviously a total con job. I had high hopes for this and would have praised Fianna Gael if they gave us something that was relatively unique to Waterford and thus gave us an advantage over other locations but alas this is not to be. Also I thought we were suppose to keep politics out of these discussions?

mike65

Remember when WIT was proposed and Cork Regional Technical College screamed like a stuck pig? Suddenly it was ITs for everyone and thus rendered meaningless. An arms race based on nomenclature.

Sully

O Riain wrote: »

WRONG! The only way this was ever going to be a benefit for Waterford and the South East was if only Waterford/Carlow and possibly DIT got it. Now it is clear that every I.T. in the country will be able to become a technological uni. I said from the start that this would be a sham if other I.Ts got it and that is seemingly just what it is. Another sham for Waterford.

Why are you once again trying to score points for your party for what is obviously a total con job. I had high hopes for this and would have praised Fianna Gael if they gave us something that was relatively unique to Waterford and thus gave us an advantage over other locations but alas this is not to be. Also I thought we were suppose to keep politics out of these discussions?

Well that's your opinion, I think its great news for Waterford. The South East now has a University, as promised, and will now hopefully be able to attract more investment and jobs. It was well known from the offset that it wouldn't be just WIT being upgraded, there was a large interest since before the Tech Uni idea was tabled and it was well known that it was more than WIT getting the nod.

Its awful selfish to suggest only WIT and maybe one other college be given this status.

The South East has been crying out for a University and it has obtained it. I don't believe for one second it will impact us if other colleges become a Technological University, Carlow & WIT are serving the South East region and other regions can do their own thing.

I couldn't agree more that if every other IT is upgraded, it would be a farce. I 100% agree with that, but right now as it stands, its great news.

Max Powers

Sully wrote: »

Pessimism even with good news, chriky can we never be positive! Everything is a downer! We should be delighted with this news after years of campaigning and neglect by successive governments. The South East is on its knees and needs this welcome boost. Did you expect that it was just WIT that was getting upgraded? It was well known that Cork & Dublin would also be getting the approval, to be fair. I agree if there all upgraded it would be farcical but I was never thinking it would be just WIT being upgraded.

The government followed through on their commitment for a University for the South East, despite many repeatedly saying (especially on this forum and using it as a stick to poke me) they wouldn't. They quickly started the process to allow for a Tech University, got the colleges to submit applications and have now approved WIT. There in government just over two years and they have done more than Fianna Fail who have been in government for decades. Credit where credit is due, to be fair.

Sully,
to be fair, im very positive on this forum if you look at my posts, highlighting the things happening around the VT and private works. I do agree with you i when you say did i expect it just to be WIT, no I didnt but i didnt expect Cork to be brought in as well, DIT yes. What Tech Uni was about was differentiating us from the rest of the ITs, giving us some hope on the jobs/investment front, its clear that this is just the start, Cork tech uni now and soon it will be the midlands and west, give it a few years. its what happened the last time and will happen again. So to sum up, it is a small positive step, could have been a big one, opportunity lost.

O Riain

Sully wrote: »

Well that's your opinion, I think its great news for Waterford. The South East now has a University, as promised, and will now hopefully be able to attract more investment and jobs. It was well known from the offset that it wouldn't be just WIT being upgraded, there was a large interest since before the Tech Uni idea was tabled and it was well known that it was more than WIT getting the nod.

Its awful selfish to suggest only WIT and maybe one other college be given this status.

The South East has been crying out for a University and it has obtained it. I don't believe for one second it will impact us if other colleges become a Technological University, Carlow & WIT are serving the South East region and other regions can do their own thing.

I couldn't agree more that if every other IT is upgraded, it would be a farce. I 100% agree with that, but right now as it stands, its great news.

Great we have one. Dublin now has 4, Cork 2, Galway will have 2 and Limerick will have 2 leaving us once again at the very bottom of the pile.

Benimar

I'm sorry Sully, but we don't have a University, we have a Technological University, which is not the same thing.

This is just RTC to IT Mark II from what I can see. Once Galway/Mayo sort out the paperwork they will be 'upgraded' too meaning all the major catchment areas will be TUs instead of ITs. So where is the differentiation?

The difference of course being that the South West, West and Dublin will have actual Universities to go along with their TUs. The South East will not.

The news is positive in the sense that the application was successful, so we don't fall behind any further, but thats as far as it goes really.

Bards

Sully wrote: »

Pessimism even with good news, chriky can we never be positive! Everything is a downer! We should be delighted with this news after years of campaigning and neglect by successive governments. The South East is on its knees and needs this welcome boost. Did you expect that it was just WIT that was getting upgraded? It was well known that Cork & Dublin would also be getting the approval, to be fair. I agree if there all upgraded it would be farcical but I was never thinking it would be just WIT being upgraded.

The government followed through on their commitment for a University for the South East, despite many repeatedly saying (especially on this forum and using it as a stick to poke me) they wouldn't. They quickly started the process to allow for a Tech University, got the colleges to submit applications and have now approved WIT. There in government just over two years and they have done more than Fianna Fail who have been in government for decades. Credit where credit is due, to be fair.

I thought a mere mention of politics would get threadds moved to the Mega Thread or have things changed back to normal?

Cabaal

Bards wrote: »

I thought a mere mention of politics would get threadds moved to the Mega Thread or have things changed back to normal?

This is big news for Waterford so we decided to make an exception for now as it isn't strictly government.

However, this thread is not an open forum to bitch about the government. If you want to do that take it to the relevant forum.

If you want to discuss this further then PM Mods or C-Mods or take it to the feedback thread

letsbet

This is a long way from what people had hoped for and is virtually pointless. I wonder is the funding for WIT (or USE or whatever pointless renaming they will potentially go with) going to be increased significantly. We were told that we (WIT and Carlow) needed a certain percentage of staff with PhDs. Not sure if that matters anymore but if you want a proper University (this won't be anywhere near that) then you need to have a lot of active researchers.

That is difficult to do when the President (although I hate using that term as it is not appropriate for an IT) has pulled the funding for staff to undertake PhDs and the funding for researchers to travel to conferences. Also when asked how a lecturer was supposed to do a PhD when teaching 18 hours (or God knows how much after Haddington Road) and he said "you can't". The whole thing is a farce. There isn't even money in the college at the moment for ink for staff printers or for bulbs for overhead projectors. Simply renaming the college (along with most other places in Ireland) is not good news at all if it's simply that - a renaming. It might change the perception of some people but not very much imo.

Sully

Max Powers wrote: »

Sully,
to be fair, im very positive on this forum if you look at my posts, highlighting the things happening around the VT and private works. I do agree with you i when you say did i expect it just to be WIT, no I didnt but i didnt expect Cork to be brought in as well, DIT yes. What Tech Uni was about was differentiating us from the rest of the ITs, giving us some hope on the jobs/investment front, its clear that this is just the start, Cork tech uni now and soon it will be the midlands and west, give it a few years. its what happened the last time and will happen again. So to sum up, it is a small positive step, could have been a big one, opportunity lost.

There was talk for a while that WIT & Tralee were merging, but it was widely known when I was in college that Cork and Dublin would be looking for an upgrade. The University issue was something I was actively involved in for a while, but even lecturers spoke about it. I didn't know the others were applying.

Benimar wrote: »

I'm sorry Sully, but we don't have a University, we have a Technological University, which is not the same thing.

This is just RTC to IT Mark II from what I can see. Once Galway/Mayo sort out the paperwork they will be 'upgraded' too meaning all the major catchment areas will be TUs instead of ITs. So where is the differentiation?

The difference of course being that the South West, West and Dublin will have actual Universities to go along with their TUs. The South East will not.

The news is positive in the sense that the application was successful, so we don't fall behind any further, but thats as far as it goes really.

Nobody was being given the full blown University Status, that was said from day one. Instead it was agreed that a second type of University would be created and that certain colleges which were performing well enough would be upgraded.

I am not nor was I ever of the understanding that all ITs are or would be upgraded and that's not whats happening. If it was announced that they would be, I wouldn't be supporting it at all and would agree that its effectively an upgrade for everybody but nothing to help the region.

Bards wrote: »

I thought a mere mention of politics would get threadds moved to the Mega Thread or have things changed back to normal?

Well considering in most political threads individuals frequently quoted pre-election promises and said they weren't following through on them - I felt it was important to remind people that this was a pre-election promise followed through despite people saying they wouldn't do it. I have no intention or desire to get into another "My party is better than yours" debate or into a fully fledged political discussion. I think its fair to agree that referencing the promise is important when announcing the news.

You cant avoid a small bit of political referencing in this thread, and that has been acknowledged so far by the mods that this thread will have a limited political role but deserves its own thread due to the news being big. Limited being key and its hoped that we can discuss this civilly without getting into a "Who can make the best personal attack" competition.

Max Powers

i think nearly all of the posts on this indicate a slight degree of positivity but really we all see the name changes happening across the country in a few years. as one said, once GMIT sort out the paperwork, they will be on board too.
Next campaign is for a full and proper uni, we will need investment for that to happen, we will need to differntiate Tech Uni SE from the rest, with some investment, some luck we may get full Uni, what will the govt of that day probably do, yep, change all of them to Unis, just like it played out in the UK and here with RTC-IT-Tech Uni

Cabaal

Off-topic posts deleted,
The next person to start going off topic gets banned

letsbet

Sully wrote: »

The South East now has a University, as promised

Did they promise us a university or a technical university (ignoring that they didn't mention the upgrade of all the other places)? Unfortunately the attitude of "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" is not apt here. Do we think that WIT will be a university with appropriate funding and teaching contracts commensurate with existing proper universities. If anyone thinks that that will happen in the current climate then they need their head examined.

Why does Waterford need a university? The country has too many universities at the moment. The idea is not great, diluting the advantages if being called a university. The only it that maybe deserve to be a university
is DIT.

Sully

letsbet wrote: »

Did they promise us a university or a technical university (ignoring that they didn't mention the upgrade of all the other places)? Unfortunately the attitude of "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" is not apt here. Do we think that WIT will be a university with appropriate funding and teaching contracts commensurate with existing proper universities. If anyone thinks that that will happen in the current climate then they need their head examined.

They said University and they specified the South East because they were the only region campaigning for years. Labour's Ruairi Quinn said there would be no further Universities under his watch, as Education Minister, but he wanted to create a new type of University. Colleges were asked to apply, WIT & Carlow did. I think we expect to see the details of this plan today.

But before this government got elected, I was told that Cork & Dublin were looking for an upgrade (told by college lecturers, students, it was covered in college newspapers which I wrote for, mentioned by Students Union and its former presidents). When they got elected, the same story and it was expected they would be given it. Nobody was of the understanding (and I campaigned for it) that we would be on our own but that it was expected WIT and Tralee would be going for it and not Carlow.

I must reiterate: I do NOT support and will NOT support any further upgrading of Universities. I firmly believe this tier of universities should be for a very select few. Also, I will NOT support it if the funding isn't in place and improvements aren't put in place.

letsbet

Well it seems to me then that it's a bit of a stretch to say that they kept their election promise.

Sully

letsbet wrote: »

Well it seems to me then that it's a bit of a stretch to say that they kept their election promise.

It was said pre-election it would be a University. Now sadly, its not a fully fledged University and when it was inserted into the programme for government I immediately questioned it (if you dig back, you will see from my posts two years ago that I asked - my involvement in politics was well known before the GE) but was assured that it would benefit WIT.

So I remained hopeful and I was worried that Labour may derail our chances of getting any upgrade. As had been pointed out, it went quiet for a period while the colleges worked on their applications (this was widely known, but ignored during political attacks). But yeah, as long as its the select few and as long as it benefits the SE Region - I'm game.

hardybuck

I'm going to ask the obvious question here - what's different? Outside of Carlow and Waterford pooling resources, is this just a change of the sign on the door in real terms?

As we an open economy and trying to attract international investors, I feel that something like Tech Universities popping up everywhere will confuse them.

I'm also in agreement with views exchanges about the possibly diluting the status of existing Universities by this move.

Sully

hardybuck wrote: »

I'm going to ask the obvious question here - what's different? Outside of Carlow and Waterford pooling resources, is this just a change of the sign on the door in real terms?

As we an open economy and trying to attract international investors, I feel that something like Tech Universities popping up everywhere will confuse them.

I don't think we know the full spec yet. I *think* that's what is being announced today. It would have to be more than a name change for the colleges to be interested and for people in the regions (especially the South East) to support.

hardybuck

Sully wrote: »

I don't think we know the full spec yet. I *think* that's what is being announced today. It would have to be more than a name change for the colleges to be interested and for people in the regions (especially the South East) to support.

I think if IT officials were offered the chance to change their name to a University without needing to make any significant change they'd be delighted!

letsbet

hardybuck wrote: »

I'm going to ask the obvious question here - what's different? Outside of Carlow and Waterford pooling resources, is this just a change of the sign on the door in real terms?

The main objective of the government is to have less colleges (rightly or wrongly). What they would get from this is is the merging of a few places and they hope that changing the name will make people happy to do so. One thing's for sure, we can't say that it's a wonderful day for the south east. We need to see all of the details. A lot of good courses will also potentially be lost from Waterford according to the plans that we've heard. It's also surprising some people high up in WIT said last week that "that whole Carlow thing is now off the table".

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I think the key difference between an IT and a University is research output as has been already mentioned. The funding gap for research between universities and ITs is vast. I have done PhD research in both an IT and in am currently in a university. There is absolutely no comparison between the two. In the IT I wasn't even provided with gloves (I'm a chemist). In the university I have access to resources and material that the IT could only dream of. I think that is the fundamental difference, you can change names all you want, but with the current fiscal situation the ITs are going to continue to lag behind the universities.

letsbet

Sully wrote: »

It was said pre-election it would be a University. Now sadly, its not a fully fledged University

This suggests then that they didn't keep their promise. Also, it's a technical university not a university. Thus, to say that the government are going to create a university in the south east (therefore keeping their promise) is not true and you are being mis-leading when you say that. The two are clearly not the same thing. Also, as you've stated above what was promised in pre-election and in the programme for government are two different things. So, to say "This was promised in the election and in the programme for government" is also incorrect.

mecco

A couple of points that seem to be getting lost in everything:

1) No-one has gotten anything yet. 3 groupings have been approved to go forward with an application. However, it is certainly good news as the South East application has cleared the first another major hurdle.

2) It's up to the South West grouping how they plan on showing they service a geographical/regional need that isn't catered by the long standing UCC that is across the road. But that is their issue to deal with, so let them at it.So long as the political process is equitable and transparent, it will avoid the fiasco that was the RTC to IT upgrades.

3) It's technological, not technical. (Sorry, i'm pedantic )

4) I have an issue with people calling it a new tier. As if it'll be below the existing universities by design. It'll be a university with a focus on technological areas. (Areas where WIT has proven to be strong already as one of the best Institutes of Technology, so that'll help the proposal.)

letsbet

Technological indeed, my bad! The point about clearing the first hurdle is a good one. If the requirement for PhDs etc is still in place then we're back at the old chicken and egg situation:

• You need to have a certain percentage of staff with PhDs.
• Then you can become a "university" and have more funding and time to do research.
• Can we have time and funding now to get the PhDs?
• Ah, no.

It reminds me of the way the ICC attempt to keep Ireland from becoming a test-playing nation. And in the same way that Irish players then go to play for England as it's their only way to play test cricket we have lecturers leaving for universities as they get to do research and teach at a higher level (I know of two in WIT who have done so and two who are strongly considering it).

Sully

mecco wrote: »

1) No-one has gotten anything yet. 3 groupings have been approved to go forward with an application. However, it is certainly good news as the South East application has cleared the first major hurdle.

I was always of the understanding that they sent in their applications sometime ago and the government paved the way for these applications ages ago.

The article linked in the OP confirms that the applications have been accepted and that they are being created?

letsbet

Sully wrote: »

I was always of the understanding that they sent in their applications sometime ago and the government paved the way for these applications ages ago.

The article linked in the OP confirms that the applications have been accepted and that they are being created?

I suppose we'll have to wait for further details but the phrasing would suggest that. However, if so, you'd wonder why they ignored the criteria that they set out. Look forward to hearing the details later on.

hardybuck

mecco wrote: »

4) I have an issue with people calling it a new tier. As if it'll be below the existing universities by design. It'll be a university with a focus on technological areas. (Areas where WIT has proven to be strong already as one of the best Institutes of Technology, so that'll help the proposal.)

There are tiers. There are in every country. If the Technological (that is a mouthful) University is to focus on technological areas, is it to stop offering courses like Business Studies for example?

As an employer, I can say that a Commerce student from UCC and UCD have received a similar level of education during their time in both those colleges. While the quality of the individual will always be the most important factor at the end of the day, can I be sure he/she is getting the same level of degree coming out of a Business Degree in Tralee IT? Right now, the answer is no.