Tech Universities for all

letsbet

Not sure if this is too much to post. If so, please delete but I have no link:

Minister Quinn sanctions major re-organisation of higher education

The Minister for Education and Skills, Ruairí Quinn T.D., has today announced a major re-organisation of the country’s higher education sectorthat includes provision for the creation of new Technological Universities.

This announcement follows recommendations made by the Higher Education Authority (HEA) to Minister Quinn. The HEA's report called for consolidation of the Institute of Technology (IT) sector; the creation of a small number of technological universities; the formation of regional clusters between universities and stronger ITs; implementation of recommendations to rationalise teacher education; as well as increased sustainability and capacity in the higher education system.

Minister Quinn said; "A new relationship between the state and the 39 publicly funded higher education institutes will be implemented. This will allow the system to respond in a more coherent way to national priorities set down by the government and provide graduates with the skills and qualifications that are essential for Ireland’s social and economic well-being.

“A new performance framework will be put in place to increase the transparency and accountability of institutions for delivery of agreed performance outcomes. Integral to this will be a process of strategic dialogue between the HEA and each higher education institution".

The Minister continued: "Following discussion with Government colleagues this week, my response to the HEA report formally sets out the Government's national priorities and its key objectives for the higher education system. I will be asking the HEA to report to me on an annual basis on the collective performance of the higher education system against these national priorities and objectives and a set of high level system indicators which will be finalised in the coming weeks. A legislative framework will be brought forward to enable the implementation of these very important processes."
Minister Quinn said this new focus on system and institutional performance will bring the funding and governance of Irish higher education into line with best practice internationally. “It marks a new era for students and other stakeholders of the system".
The Ministeris also instructing the HEA to begin to implement thereport's recommendations that will result in the consolidation of three groups ofinstitutes of technology to progress towards attaining Technological University status. The three are:

• The Dublin Institute of Technology, theInstitute of Technology Tallaght and the Institute of Technology, Blanchardstown
• The Cork Institute of Technology and the Institute of Technology, Tralee
• The Waterford Institute of Technology and Carlow Institute of Technology.

The next stage for each of the applications will be the preparation of a plan to meet the criteria for Technological University status. The plan must be based on a legally binding memorandum of understanding between each consortium of institutions describing their consolidation into a new single institution.
The plans will be evaluated by an independent expert international panel that will decide if the applicant can meet the agreed criteria in the proposed timetable and can proceed to the final stage.
Minister Quinn added that:“It is clear some institutes are not seeking to amalgamate with others and become Technological Universities. However, all institutions must concentrate on the core mission of developing close links with the local and regional business community and giving the best possible quality of education to their students, both from home and abroad.“
In addition, the Minister is asking the HEA to establish regional clusters of institutions in three identified regions, Dublin/Leinster, the South/South East and West/Mid/West. All seven universities and 14 ITs will be grouped as follows:

• South/South East - University College Cork, Cork IT, IT Tralee, Waterford IT and IT Carlow;
• West/Mid/North West - University of Limerick, Mary Immaculate College, Limerick IT, Galway-Mayo IT, IT Sligo, Letterkenny IT and NUI Galway (St Angela’s and Shannon College incorporated into NUI Galway);
• Dublin/Leinster Pillar I – University College Dublin, Trinity College Dublin, National College of Art and Design, Marino Institute of Education, Dun Laoghaire Institute of Art, Design and Technology;
• Dublin/Leinster Pillar II – Dublin Institute of Technology, IT Tallaght, IT Blanchardstown, Dublin City University (and incorporating linked colleges, National College of Ireland, Dundalk IT, NUI Maynooth, Athlone IT and Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland

Heads of institutions in these clusters will now develop regional plans, eliminating unnecessary duplication of provision and establishing clear pathways of transfer and progression for students in the region. Emerging alliances between universities and institutes of technology will be strengthened and promoted - developing critical mass and centres of excellence in undergraduate, postgraduate and research provision.
The re-configuration of higher education follows on from the National Strategy for Higher Education to 2030 (the Hunt report) that set out a series of objectives for a reformed system. The re-configuration also incorporates the rationalisation of initial teacher education recommended in a report published last year by the HEA and the recommendations of the review of creative arts provision in the Dublin area also published in 2012.

letsbet

It seems very much like we merge with carlow and then down the line there is potential for an "upgrade". The whole plan seems to focus on cost-cutting as far as I can see.

mecco

Sully wrote: »

I was always of the understanding that they sent in their applications sometime ago and the government paved the way for these applications ages ago.

The article linked in the OP confirms that the applications have been accepted and that they are being created?

You're right, it is further on then I thought. My confusion was from the fact they have a next step they must pass (To implement a legally binding plan to link with Carlow) as letsbet mentioned.

mecco

hardybuck wrote: »

There are tiers. There are in every country. If the Technological (that is a mouthful) University is to focus on technological areas, is it to stop offering courses like Business Studies for example?

As an employer, I can say that a Commerce student from UCC and UCD have received a similar level of education during their time in both those colleges. While the quality of the individual will always be the most important factor at the end of the day, can I be sure he/she is getting the same level of degree coming out of a Business Degree in Tralee IT? Right now, the answer is no.

Sure, I'd agree with all that. That's the practicality of the situation and the SE group will have to make sure they have quality courses. But the point I'm making is let's not sell the new institute as being less before we even start taking course quality into it.

As regards your other point, I'm simply guessing that if they delivered Business courses etc as an Institute of Technology, they would continue to do so as a University of Technology.

hardybuck

mecco wrote: »

Sure, I'd agree with all that. That's the practicality of the situation and the SE group will have to make sure they have quality courses. But the point I'm making is let's not sell the new institute as being less before we even start taking course quality into it.

As regards your other point, I'm simply guessing that if they delivered Business courses etc as an Institute of Technology, they would continue to do so as a University of Technology.

Sure, and would imagine that the criteria for becoming a Technological University is lower as a result. If WIT and Carlow were to come up to University standard in the morning, they'd have a bit of work to do in my opinion. More to do with their course catalogue and postgraduate offerings as much as anything else. Becoming a Tech could allow them to gradually build their standard over time, and that could be a positive thing.

letsbet

The HEA were pushing for a merger between Cork IT / IT Tralee and Waterford IT / IT Carlow and it's not completely off the table it appears. At any rate we now go to stage 2 - where it seems it'll take a long time (if we ever get there) to meet the criteria. In the meantime, all that will happen is more consolidation in the system and you assume there'll be job losses at some point as why else would they want to merge and cut duplication as they put it.


From the HEA Report to the Minister:
In considering the cases of the Cork IT / IT Tralee and Waterford IT / IT Carlow expressions of interest, the HEA had regard to whether the strategic interest of the regions and the country would be better served by the creation of a single technological university from these two separate proposals. Combining all four institutes, there would be clear potential for a multi-campus technological university of scale. With approximately 23,000 students, current income of over €220 million, 2,500 academic, support and research staff, and research income of €37m, such an institution would certainly offer enhanced benefits to students, enterprise and communities in the South, and it would have greater potential to compete internationally.

However, based on institutional submissions and on HEA engagement with the institutions, it is clear that at present there is no appetite for such a proposal. Notwithstanding this, as the institutions engage with the process of meeting the technological university criteria, the option of a more co-ordinated approach up to and including a single institution should be kept live and reconsidered if it offers a realistic prospect of delivering a stronger institution.

Subject to this proviso, it is recommended that each of these two separate expressions of interest should now proceed to the next stage of the process for designation as a technological university as set out in the Landscape Document.

Meathlass

Both Carlow and Waterford ITs will have to merge first and sort out duplicating courses etc. Then they can apply as a single 'Waterford and Carlow Insitute of Technology' for Technological University status.

I can't see a merger happening for at least 2 years and then the new entity would need to operate on its own for at least 2 years to consolidation the partnership. Applying for TU status, application being reviewed and accredidation provided would easily take 2-3 years. But it's good that this first major hurdle has been crossed.

Max Powers

'Clusters'......i wonder where these clusters might lead to, where will that cluster will be based, ran from, budgets controlled from etc, with talk like this, WIT or TechUni SE will go the way WRH went, slow but consistent cuts and not a fair crack of the whip. Do they think the SE isnt a region in itself.

Maybe im being overly cynical and anything like i said is miles down the road, but that word doesnt bode well for the SE when any govt starts talking about it.

added by MP....a bit cynical and paranoid maybe..

Mr Tibbs

Just a thought its strange when Limerick were granted University status after a long campaign nearly as long as ours every other college did not achieve similar just like whats being proposed here in this wonderful news for this town (city). Hope I'm not banned for this.

Sully

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

Just a thought its strange when Limerick were granted University status after a long campaign nearly as long as ours every other college did not achieve similar just like whats being proposed here in this wonderful news for this town (city). Hope I'm not banned for this.

Lol why would you be banned? For the town jibe? Irelands oldest City, it just didnt grow.

Its hard to understand what your saying - is it that when Limerick got upgraded that there wasn't a flood of other upgrades?

So your suggesting it may not happen here that a flood of applications will be granted?

Psychedelic

On the one hand it looks like good news, but I think we can safely write off any chance about ever having an actual university in Waterford.

If WIT is merged with Carlow IT there's no going back, and I wonder if the merger will actually be a negative thing. Instead of having a technological university across several WIT campuses, there will be the other campus up in Carlow, who will have to get a share of the funding, courses etc. Then again the merger could be a good thing, and if it works at TU level it might strengthen a case to be upgraded to full university status.

That whole clusters thing seems like just another indicator that the South East region is being slowly wiped out, so eventually we won't be able to lobby for things based on what the South East needs, because there will only be East, West/Midlands and South regions.

Us: "Waterford/South East needs X"
Government: "Well, X is already in the South Region" (in Cork)

Max Powers

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

Just a thought its strange when Limerick were granted University status after a long campaign nearly as long as ours every other college did not achieve similar just like whats being proposed here in this wonderful news for this town (city). Hope I'm not banned for this.

what you're saying is that our achievement is downgraded by the fact that others are brought into the same even though we fought the fight, i agree 100%. Same happened with the RTC - IT campaign and yes as you point out, same is happening here probably.
Re: UL, Chuck Feeney primarily, JP and other rich Limerick people pumped millions into UL before it was UL making it look and feel like a Uni. No other Uni in Ireland has gotten such private investment, maybe UCD.

DeiseforLiam

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

Just a thought its strange when Limerick were granted University status after a long campaign nearly as long as ours every other college did not achieve similar just like whats being proposed here in this wonderful news for this town (city). Hope I'm not banned for this.

UL and DCU were created at the same time AFAIR (late 80s?). They had been NIHEs which were institutes of higher education a level above the (then) RTCs.

Trotter

Does this move Waterford's economic cause forward in comparison to the other regions? No.

For me it's another example of name changing and reminds me of the RTC to IT farce. Until the political (sorry) will is there to provide Waterford with a leg up, we'll have to put up with these farcical 'everyone please celebrate' type announcements.

This region has the population density for a university of its own and there is no good reason why a solid functioning university could be set up. I don't believe the other regions need this like the SE does. I don't even believe DIT needs upgrading but I could be convinced on that one. Cork? No way.

Anyone with a pair of eyes can see that Waterford's advancement as a region is being blocked because we'll see pigs fly before resources are diverted from the other regions into ours as opposed to us being given goodies that everyone else gets too to make sure we gain no advantage.

The key here is advantage. This 'tech uni for most people in the audience' is an example of how Waterford/SE never gets the advantage over other regions.

And that my friends is a political policy and decision :eek: so I'll stop.

Advantage. We never ever get the advantage and Waterford will never see a university (a real one not a diet/light one) because it would annoy the other regions who apparently have the right people on speed dial.

letsbet

It's even worse than that as today's decision doesn't even come close to giving tech uni status. It just basically says that you can apply. In the meantime you have to merge and maybe in five years ye will qualify for tech uni status but we won't be giving ye any help in getting there. I'd be tempted to say that it all adds up to bad news rather than my earlier thought that it's just a lack of good news.

Nypd

To me it looks like a farce !!

The other regions mentioned for upgrades already have universities based in their areas.
It's another sad day for our belguired city.

KevIRL

My views on this are mixed, it is a plus to see the University issue progressing in some facet, however it does hark to some sort of sop akin to the WRTC > WIT move, swiftly followed by the rest of the institutions some years back.

Lightbulb Sun

Would not be an idea to try partner with UCC or something?

DKIT is trying to become a partner of DCU, therefore degrees from there will be a University accredited degree.

Sully

Psychedelic wrote: »

On the one hand it looks like good news, but I think we can safely write off any chance about ever having an actual university in Waterford.

If WIT is merged with Carlow IT there's no going back, and I wonder if the merger will actually be a negative thing. Instead of having a technological university across several WIT campuses, there will be the other campus up in Carlow, who will have to get a share of the funding, courses etc. Then again the merger could be a good thing, and if it works at TU level it might strengthen a case to be upgraded to full university status.

That whole clusters thing seems like just another indicator that the South East region is being slowly wiped out, so eventually we won't be able to lobby for things based on what the South East needs, because there will only be East, West/Midlands and South regions.

Us: "Waterford/South East needs X"
Government: "Well, X is already in the South Region" (in Cork)

I don't get you? We are not being put into clusters... We are merging with a college in the South East. That's two colleges in the South East merging for a University to the South East? We aren't being paired with Cork?

I'm probably missing something obvious in your post, sorry.

letsbet wrote: »

It's even worse than that as today's decision doesn't even come close to giving tech uni status. It just basically says that you can apply. In the meantime you have to merge and maybe in five years ye will qualify for tech uni status but we won't be giving ye any help in getting there. I'd be tempted to say that it all adds up to bad news rather than my earlier thought that it's just a lack of good news.

Heh? The application process was ages ago. Our application was granted and the process to become a Tech Uni is underway.

Trotter

Here's the big dividing question. Is a technical university equal in standing to UCC, DCU, UL, or NUIG?

If not, then there's nothing to see here because they are the other cities in the gateway strategy thats being rapidly flushed.

Sully

Trotter wrote: »

Here's the big dividing question. Is a technical university equal in standing to UCC, DCU, UL, or NUIG?

If not, then there's nothing to see here because they are the other cities in the gateway strategy thats being rapidly flushed.

This has been on the table for two years now and WIT appear to be in favour of it, as do our local representatives on both sides of the houses. I heard David Cullinane welcoming it.

No government seems to want to add to our Universities, and ill include Fine Gael & Labour in that. I was disappointed that the pledge for University Status wasn't a full blown Uni but a new type of Uni instead.

It appears that this idea is to create a center of excellence type University of which WIT excels in many areas technologically so was granted - that's what Fine Gael & Labour want to do and it should help the South East if implemented right and isn't just a name change or a change of how ITs as a whole work.

Trotter

Sully wrote: »

This has been on the table for two years now and WIT appear to be in favour of it, as do our local representatives on both sides of the houses. I heard David Cullinane welcoming it.

No government seems to want to add to our Universities, and ill include Fine Gael & Labour in that. I was disappointed that the pledge for University Status wasn't a full blown Uni but a new type of Uni instead.

It appears that this idea is to create a center of excellence type University of which WIT excels in many areas technologically so was granted - that's what Fine Gael & Labour want to do and it should help the South East if implemented right and isn't just a name change or a change of how ITs as a whole work.

Sully do you think Waterford would be allocated anything positive that didnt result in a phonecall from a neighbouring region looking to block or match it? Cmon.. You've your finger on the pulse of Waterford and you know full well we'll never be allocated a bob without the nod of our well alligned competitors.

The university issue bears so many of the hallmarks of all of Waterford's battles.

WRH (A very special part of Cork's new network)
Waterford Airport (Runway extension would detract from Cork's numbers)
VEC (Others needed it more it would seem... hmm)
IDA (Anyone want to guess where they went?)
etc..

To a neutral, its obvious.

Our problem is not that our TDs don't want the best for Waterford. Far from it!
Our problem is that the other TDs dont want the best for Waterford because it would be us taking a bigger piece of a static cake. This "university" is just a case of making the cake bigger and giving us all a bit.. but telling WIT that its slice is.. special.

Our TDs are outnumbered and out-influenced.

Now please don't see that I'm singling you out.. Its not personal at all. Ive a lot of respect for you. I'm debating here with the strongest govt supporting voice.. whoever that might be.

****e I went political didn't I.. I'll ban myself til tomorrow. Save the bother

zl1whqvjs75cdy

This might not be the most popular opinion but why does Waterford even need a University? Ireland is a small country, there are already 7 (?) Universities here. I really do not see the need for another.

Sully

Trotter wrote: »

Sully do you think Waterford would be allocated anything positive that didnt result in a phonecall from a neighbouring region looking to block or match it? Cmon.. You've your finger on the pulse of Waterford and you know full well we'll never be allocated a bob without the nod of our well alligned competitors.

Before this government got elected, Dublin and Cork were on the cards for an upgrade. It continued that way during the upgrade. None of the Universities want any additional ones created and I am not sure we need one. We are not calling for one of out necessity for our Education system but for our own region and to be on a level playing field.

I don't want to drag this thread off topic, so I wont reply to the other remarks as I would like to try keep on topic. (I'm learning )

Meathlass

Sully wrote: »

Heh? The application process was ages ago. Our application was granted and the process to become a Tech Uni is underway.

There's been no application yet to become a Tech Uni. They've just been given formal approval to apply to become one but only on the condition that the two institutes merge first and apply as one entity.

I agree wth you that the application process is underway but it will still be years before students are able to apply to TUSE for third level education.

Psychedelic

Sully wrote: »

I don't get you? We are not being put into clusters... We are merging with a college in the South East. That's two colleges in the South East merging for a University to the South East? We aren't being paired with Cork?

I'm probably missing something obvious in your post, sorry.

I was referring to this:

letsbet wrote: »

Not sure if this is too much to post. If so, please delete but I have no link:

Minister Quinn sanctions major re-organisation of higher education
In addition, the Minister is asking the HEA to establish regional clusters of institutions in three identified regions, Dublin/Leinster, the South/South East and West/Mid/West. All seven universities and 14 ITs will be grouped as follows:

• South/South East - University College Cork, Cork IT, IT Tralee, Waterford IT and IT Carlow;
• West/Mid/North West - University of Limerick, Mary Immaculate College, Limerick IT, Galway-Mayo IT, IT Sligo, Letterkenny IT and NUI Galway (St Angela’s and Shannon College incorporated into NUI Galway);
• Dublin/Leinster Pillar I – University College Dublin, Trinity College Dublin, National College of Art and Design, Marino Institute of Education, Dun Laoghaire Institute of Art, Design and Technology;
• Dublin/Leinster Pillar II – Dublin Institute of Technology, IT Tallaght, IT Blanchardstown, Dublin City University (and incorporating linked colleges, National College of Ireland, Dundalk IT, NUI Maynooth, Athlone IT and Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland

Heads of institutions in these clusters will now develop regional plans, eliminating unnecessary duplication of provision and establishing clear pathways of transfer and progression for students in the region. Emerging alliances between universities and institutes of technology will be strengthened and promoted - developing critical mass and centres of excellence in undergraduate, postgraduate and research provision.

Benimar

Sully wrote: »

I don't get you? We are not being put into clusters... We are merging with a college in the South East. That's two colleges in the South East merging for a University to the South East? We aren't being paired with Cork?

Not at all. WIT and Carlow IT are merging in order to allow them to apply to become a Technological University. I've highlighted the 'T' word again as you seem to keep missing that part for some reason....

Also, there is no guarantee that merger will result in this 'upgrade' but should it not be awarded WIT and Carlow IT must stay merged as per the legislation.

As a previous poster pointed out WIT and Carlow currently do not meet the criteria for upgrade regarding PhDs, research etc.

7upfree

Sully wrote: »

Well that's your opinion, I think its great news for Waterford. The South East now has a University, as promised, and will now hopefully be able to attract more investment and jobs.

:D:D:D
Of course it has................:rolleyes:

7upfree

Sully wrote: »

This has been on the table for two years now and WIT appear to be in favour of it, as do our local representatives on both sides of the houses. I heard David Cullinane welcoming it.

Ah so that's OK then........ Look, it is, as someone already said, a farce. Universities for all. No mention of WU or UW - God forbid that should happen on a certain Minister's watch. It is purely politics, along with the "mergers" of the councils announced earlier..

letsbet

Benimar wrote: »

As a previous poster pointed out WIT and Carlow currently do not meet the criteria for upgrade regarding PhDs, research etc.

It's a bit worse than that from a WIT perspective in some ways. Whatever chance WIT has of getting near the required levels in the next few years Carlow will drag the average down and make it even harder to achieve. Carlow definitely has more to gain from this proposed merger.