Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....

Stereomaniac

Does it really matter what we think of Vince McMahon's level of creativity though? We're still watching the product. If someone else could've done what he's done, they would've already.

Ageyev

Stereomaniac wrote: »

Does it really matter what we think of Vince McMahon's level of creativity though? We're still watching the product. If someone else could've done what he's done, they would've already.

How often do you hear a (serious) film critic - or any other critic or commentator or punter of creative media - say "well, it doesn't really matter what we think about the plot, the direction or the dialogue because millions of people paid to see it so the director, writer, actor, producer etc. is a genius so any discussiom on the creative merits is moot. My guess is not often.

Uwe Boll still gets hired to direct films but he sucks. Likewise Michael Bay. He's pretty much awful but his films have made a lot of money. Sure, it's subjective but I'm not alone in saying that they suck when it comes to compelling creativity.

Omackeral

Stereomaniac wrote: »

Does it really matter what we think of Vince McMahon's level of creativity though? We're still watching the product. If someone else could've done what he's done, they would've already.

It's a random thoughts thread. We're discussing random thoughts!

Ageyev

Omackeral wrote: »

Just to weigh in on the Vince being the almighty genius...


[[/YOUTUBE]

That was great. There was a WWE Network video parody last year but I can't find it.

Stereomaniac

Omackeral wrote: »

It's a random thoughts thread. We're discussing random thoughts!

I just don't want to see people getting too heated about something we all love really!

jaykhunter

Re: Punk - Austin, Edge etc got to main event WM, and weren't fired on their wedding day. Punk strikes me as a very difficult person to deal with but if even 20% of what he said on Colt's podcast is true, WWE are far more bitterly insecure. He listed out dozens of specific examples of how he was screwed over but he's labelled as having a populist anti-WWE narrative and pulling the wool over people's eyes? Surely not playing the 'PR game' makes him more honest. Instead of people being grateful he's honest and explaining why he left, oh sure he's just whining and poor ol' me. There's no winning for him.

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I just don't want to see people getting too heated about something we all love really!

As long as no personal insults go around we're all good

jaykhunter

ERG89 wrote: »

Not really most the fans were chanting his name for ages after he left. They missed him but the Bryan push helped at the time

I get what ya mean; but it seemed that fans just chanted it to seem smart (i.e. at his wife AJ) or to show disapproval (when they're bored watching a match, or angry at the Divas!) rather than a ground swell of support if that makes sense? Punk chants were never a hijacking, like Bryan chants when they tried to push Orton or whoever. If fans chanted it squarely at Triple H/Vince it'd be a different matter.

leggo

jaykhunter wrote: »

Re: Punk - Austin, Edge etc got to main event WM, and weren't fired on their wedding day. Punk strikes me as a very difficult person to deal with but if even 20% of what he said on Colt's podcast is true, WWE are far more bitterly insecure. He listed out dozens of specific examples of how he was screwed over but he's labelled as having a populist anti-WWE narrative and pulling the wool over people's eyes? Surely not playing the 'PR game' makes him more honest. Instead of people being grateful he's honest and explaining why he left, oh sure he's just whining and poor ol' me. There's no winning for him.



As long as no personal insults go around we're all good

Don't get me wrong: I'm glad he did the podcast and had his rant. It was tremendously entertaining. But Punk's version of the truth relies on the basic premise that he's entitled to earn as much as bigger stars than him, main event WrestleMania etc. Also there's a big difference between being screwed over and having to do your job as dictated by your employer. Being put into a programme with Ryback isn't getting screwed over, even if you feel like you are in a different league to him talent-wise. Punk is the guy in your job who moans about absolutely EVERYTHING while still collecting his cheque at the end of the week, then **** stirs like a bitter ex once he eventually leaves. He's a compelling talker and an excellent spin doctor, look at how people are calling stuff like 'having to work Ryback' being screwed over as opposed to 'just doing what he's paid to do' for example, but that's what it all boils down to at the end of the day when you wade through his BS and get to the core of his moaning.

Mick Murdock

It is a fact that he was held back when he was at his hottest. Losing to the mighty Trips was one of their worst ever decisions and I'm not surprised he was bitter about it.

Punk and Bryan were never truly given the opportunity to compete with Cena because they booked the fans into submission.

They seem determined not to push anybody that smart fans like for any considerable period. Ziggler, Cesaro come to mind. That is so idiotic it's hard to comprehend.

Maybe Punks attitude and Bryans injuries prove them right but they're not exactly in a position to pick and choose at the moment. Go with what's hot and see what happens.

More than ever they need to build a lot of guys who can talk and fill the 5 hours of tv a week.

It is possible to appease both kids and more casual viewers and hardcore fans at the same time. They clearly see the hard-core fans as a given and try to appeal to the masses.

Makes for a rubbish product where most guys mean nothing and that's obvious to anybody other than a kid.

ERG89

jaykhunter wrote: »

I get what ya mean; but it seemed that fans just chanted it to seem smart (i.e. at his wife AJ) or to show disapproval (when they're bored watching a match, or angry at the Divas!) rather than a ground swell of support if that makes sense? Punk chants were never a hijacking, like Bryan chants when they tried to push Orton or whoever. If fans chanted it squarely at Triple H/Vince it'd be a different matter.

I think the fans did eventually move on (even if it wasn't for long as Bryan physically broke down after winning the title). Fans know that there was bad blood between Punk & WWE so lost faith in a swift return pretty quickly.
Definitely remember the authority listening to a lot of CM Punk chants (I remember Stephanie replying to it at least once) but it faded when Bryan was pushed. Think fans were into the Yes craze & tired of Punk phoning it in tbh.
It was crappy & spiteful that they did it on his wedding day but he wasn't coming back 6 months later in his mindset he was already gone from wwe anyway.

Omackeral

Here's a random wrestling thought. This edition of Raw in Toronto apparently had 40,000 people at it. That's insane.

connemara man

That's mental!

1 look at all the signs! The place is practically cardboard
2 Cole aand King aren't annoying
3 I know it's a small thing but look how stone cold enters the ring does the here I am bit and just gets on with the promo. He's practically commanding the audience respect. And they quiet down naturally. None of this waiting for them to stop that happens a lot today.
That's natural charisma that doesn't get the chance to show itself or isn't there in modern wwe

CastorTroy

Was just thinking having Owens/Cesaro where they are seems to be a way to try and placate the Daniel Bryan/CM Punk crowd. Who else is there that could be classed as the internet darlings?

sky88

i liked punk but hes always seemed bitter about everything and he wanted to be the top guy without having to do media work that goes with it that we all see cena do.

There was plenty about him to be peed at wwe over the years especially losing to trips at his hottest, but the way he says things youd think he was a jobber the whole time.

i think what turned a lot of fans against him was the accusations against the doctor and it just seemed wrong to me that a doctor would do what he said he did.

A Brad Maddox Guy

I honestly miss Punk when watching 90% of RAWs since he left. Whether he's a moany git or not doesn't enter the equation for me; the product has one less main event level guy at a time when they have very very few main event level guys and for that I wish he was still there. He's the reason I started taking a proper interest in wrestling again with the hype surrounding Money in the Bank 2011 and he never let me down in the proceeding years. He was brilliant as champion despite them prioritising dreadful Cena vs John Laurinitus/Big Show feuds. Including him in the Cena vs Rock Mania main event would have been a logical improvement on what we got and I still can't believe they didn't do it.

leggo

Mick Murdock wrote: »

It is a fact that he was held back when he was at his hottest. Losing to the mighty Trips was one of their worst ever decisions and I'm not surprised he was bitter about it.

Punk and Bryan were never truly given the opportunity to compete with Cena because they booked the fans into submission.

They seem determined not to push anybody that smart fans like for any considerable period. Ziggler, Cesaro come to mind. That is so idiotic it's hard to comprehend.

Maybe Punks attitude and Bryans injuries prove them right but they're not exactly in a position to pick and choose at the moment. Go with what's hot and see what happens.

More than ever they need to build a lot of guys who can talk and fill the 5 hours of tv a week.

It is possible to appease both kids and more casual viewers and hardcore fans at the same time. They clearly see the hard-core fans as a given and try to appeal to the masses.

Makes for a rubbish product where most guys mean nothing and that's obvious to anybody other than a kid.

The problem with just going with what's hot is, off the top of my head:

1) They did that with Brock Lesnar. Then he left and made a competitor a lot of money instead. Of course he came back, but that's not guaranteed at all. If TNA had made the right offer to him at the right time, he could've bankrupted WWE by going there. It's circumstances outside of WWE's control that prevented that from happening, which is a poor way to run a business.

2) There's literally zero extra money in pushing guys who are beloved by fans who are going to watch regardless. Just keep them on the show somewhere and those fans will watch, they don't have to main event or be champion or even win.

3) Zack Ryder and Fandango were both 'hot' at one stage. Sometimes fans get behind stuff just because it's funny, not because it's what they actually want. So how can you bet the house on their judgement? We're living in an era where fans very nearly decided they wanted to see ZZ win Tough Enough! Sometimes fans don't know best.

Bounty Hunter

leggo wrote: »

2) There's literally zero extra money in pushing guys who are beloved by fans who are going to watch regardless. Just keep them on the show somewhere and those fans will watch, they don't have to main event or be champion or even win.

I've seen this kinda thing posted before (not by yourself Leggo, just talking in general) and tbh I don't get it. Sure the hardcore fans who loved Bryan, Punk etc will probably keep watching anyway but just cos they are Internet darlings does not mean the kids and casuals aren't also big fans. If anything when Bryan finally got pushed it showed the opposite as it seemed like everyone (except management perhaps) loved DB and he was also shifting merch.

A Brad Maddox Guy

leggo wrote: »

The problem with just going with what's hot is, off the top of my head:

1) They did that with Brock Lesnar. Then he left and made a competitor a lot of money instead. Of course he came back, but that's not guaranteed at all. If TNA had made the right offer to him at the right time, he could've bankrupted WWE by going there. It's circumstances outside of WWE's control that prevented that from happening, which is a poor way to run a business.

2) There's literally zero extra money in pushing guys who are beloved by fans who are going to watch regardless. Just keep them on the show somewhere and those fans will watch, they don't have to main event or be champion or even win.

3) Zack Ryder and Fandango were both 'hot' at one stage. Sometimes fans get behind stuff just because it's funny, not because it's what they actually want. So how can you bet the house on their judgement? We're living in an era where fans very nearly decided they wanted to see ZZ win Tough Enough! Sometimes fans don't know best.

1) Odd argument to make. Brock Lesnar got hot because WWE pushed him from the very start as the Next Big Thing. They knew he was amazing & pushed him accordingly. To use him leaving as a reason to not push somebody the fans get behind on their own merit makes no sense as his wasn't a fan oriented rise.

2) True to an extent but it's much easier to push someone the vocal fans are already behind as opposed to the perceived throat shoving which is still affecting Roman Reigns. WWE tried to push someone the 'hardcore' fans (I hate that term but it's the easiest to convey) didn't think was worthy yet and it failed as a result. There's absolutely no way that Roman Reigns has earned WWE more than CM Punk did so I think it's pretty clear that there is an additional profit to be made under the right circumstances.

3) I agree with you about fans not always knowing what's best but I don't think you'll find many that were advocating a Fandango to be anything more than a midcarder. But at the same time there's no telling how much Zack Ryder could have made WWE had they not gone out of their way to push him back down the card (personally not a big fan but his merch sales were undeniable). Ryder isn't a good example of running with what's hot either; it's an example of WWE directly inhibiting the natural popularity of these wrestlers. So it can't really be used as a deterrent to WWE running with what's hot since they never fully did.

Mick Murdock

Leggo,

Brock was a once off and that's just the risk you take unless you never want to push anybody again?It's pretty much a guarantee that nobody will ever compete head to head with WWE on the level of WCW.

The alternative to pushing the guys that get a reaction from the internet fans and the audience in general is pushing guys that Vince likes - Big Show, Sheamus, Reigns who get no reaction at all. The presentation, entrance and announcers talking guys up makes the viewer take them seriously. Burying every call up after a few weeks obviously isn't helping anybody.

Nobody ever suggested pushing Fandango (his music was good) or Zack Ryder into the main event. That doesn't mean they had to bury him either.

I'm talking about legitimate guys and veterans of independent wrestling like Punk, Bryan, Owens, Cesaro, Rollins, Ambrose and give them a chance. I'm not necessarily the biggest fan of all of them but they are clearly far superior to almost anybody that WWE has produced themselves. There's no reason why Cena, Punk and Bryan couldn't all be really over at one time. You add Ziggler, The Shield to that and you have a show worth watching. Everybody can't be the main guy but everybody can feel important.

Punk and Bryan got bigger pops than most guys that have ever wrestled - including Triple H.

The audience may not have the expertise of people behind the scenes but surely going with what's over is a better alternative to what's been happening in the last 5+ years.

SureYWouldntYa

They should bring in a divas tag team championship soon. There's 10+ divas on the roster, and most of them are competent workers and there's lots more to come from nxt. The current title scene is looking very crowded with those 3 teams, be very hard to keep them all relevant in time without a tag team division

More importantly it could allow the Bellas to get out of the main title scene

Stereomaniac

jaykhunter wrote: »

Re: Punk - Austin, Edge etc got to main event WM, and weren't fired on their wedding day. Punk strikes me as a very difficult person to deal with but if even 20% of what he said on Colt's podcast is true, WWE are far more bitterly insecure. He listed out dozens of specific examples of how he was screwed over but he's labelled as having a populist anti-WWE narrative and pulling the wool over people's eyes? Surely not playing the 'PR game' makes him more honest. Instead of people being grateful he's honest and explaining why he left, oh sure he's just whining and poor ol' me. There's no winning for him.



As long as no personal insults go around we're all good

Maybe sometime we can have a 12 hour period where we all shoot on each other, a bit like that movie, The Purge I think it was called, where crime is legal. CM Punk had reason to be annoyed, but he didn't handle it all that well either.

Reebrock

Stereomaniac wrote: »

Maybe sometime we can have a 12 hour period where we all shoot on each other, a bit like that movie, The Purge I think it was called, where crime is legal. CM Punk had reason to be annoyed, but he didn't handle it all that well either.

I think he handled it fine. He waited like 8 months and then went on his mates podcast because he knew he would otherwise be hounded forever about why he wasn't in WWE anymore.

Agent Coulson

Will a Diva's match be the main event of RAW tonight?

They have been building Nikki breaking AJ's record for weeks if not months now.

Nikki vs Charlotte with the clock counting down to the close of RAW and the record.

Laurel_Patente

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Will a Diva's match be the main event of RAW tonight?

They have been building Nikki breaking AJ's record for weeks if not months now.

Nikki vs Charlotte with the clock counting down to the close of RAW and the record.

Nikki will win the title tonight but it won't be clean, either she will win with interference or Charlotte will win but it will be a DQ for some reason. So the WWE can have Nikki Bella beat AJ Lee's record, expunge her from their records, and set it up for Charlotte to win at Night of Champions.

Stereomaniac

Reebrock wrote: »

I think he handled it fine. He waited like 8 months and then went on his mates podcast because he knew he would otherwise be hounded forever about why he wasn't in WWE anymore.

He obviously didn't handle it that well if he's after ending up with a court case on his hands over the remarks he made about the doctor. I'm glad he did do it though.

beakerjoe

Laurel_Patente wrote: »

Nikki will win the title tonight but it won't be clean, either she will win with interference or Charlotte will win but it will be a DQ for some reason. So the WWE can have Nikki Bella beat AJ Lee's record, expunge her from their records, and set it up for Charlotte to win at Night of Champions.

Charlotte wins. The countdown is dwindling down as Charolotte has Nikki in the figure 8 for about a minute.... she taps but its after the countdown is over.

CastorTroy

I think the countdown was scheduled to end after Raw ends, because I remember wondering how it could be, so I just assumed daylight savings came into play

beakerjoe

Good piece on Voices about Cesaro at the minute, http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2015/09/14/stop-trying-to-make-cesaro-happen/

Its an interesting look on why hes not pushed to the moon as some may think he should.

I agree he hasnt the presence on the mic and that usually can hinder most pushes in Vinces eyes.

Lord TSC

Ryback pinned the WWE champion last week on Raw.

Anyone think they'll ever mention it again? In theory, shouldn't he be next in line for a title match now? :pac:

Agent Coulson

Now that the WWE has a number of European wrestlers I'd love to see the return of the European belt.




Davey Boy & Regal are the only Europeans to hold the belt.