Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....

Riddle101

As far as the Hogan/McMahon debate goes, I think it takes two to tango. Yes, McMahon was changing the business back in the early 80's, and he provided wrestlers with opportunities, but he needed a guy to be his crown jewel, the face of the company and it was Hogan. Hogan's role in Rocky 3 also helped because they were able to build around that and establish him. But I think Hogan deserves a lot of credit for what he's done. He kick started two wrestling booms, became a megastar and a huge draw for WWE. I remember reading in Bret Hart's book that people would shake his hand in the lockerroom, because he was the guy that was putting money in their pockets. After that, the only other guys that could do with Hogan did were Steve Austin and The Rock.

LeeJM

A Rogue Hobo wrote: »

Not that I'm taking sides in you guys' debate here but he is right, Hogan was the top star in AWA before he jumped back to WWE(F) even though he never actually won the company's heavyweight title. You have to remember that Rocky 3 came out while Hogan was in AWA, he left WWE initially because the McMahons didn't want him in the movie. Hogan, to his credit, saw that he could transition to Hollywood and become bigger star from it before the McMahons ever did.



You're being a bit harsh here with the making stuff up part but you're both actually right sorta. Inoki was the first official IWGP champion, but before the actual physical championship existed they held a IWGP tournament, of which Hogan was the first ever winner.

I think to jump to the conclusion that Hogan would have been a big star in wrestling without the "Hulkamania" era is a fair assessment. He would never have come close to the heights he reached with Vince, but he still would have been a incredibly famous wrestler. As much flack as Hogan gets, he has star presence and always did have buckets of charisma and likeability.

Yep even though he was never AWA champ he was the top star there. An apt comparison would be John Cena in WWE today, hasnt been WWE champ for a couple of yrs now but is still the top guy.

Yea im making up Hogan being the first IWGP champion and hope that nobody questions me on it. Seriously dont let your dislike of Hogan get in the way of the truth. As far as i know NJPW even recognise Hogan as the first champion.

Rogue is spot on saying Hogan would more than likely have been a big wrestling star without Vince. He pretty much already was by the time he jumped to the Fed in 84. Did things skyrocket being in New York? Absolutely. Was Vince partly responsible, absolutely. Would either have been as successful without the other is pretty much impossible to answer.


Random thought, if Okada was to leave NJPW for WWE does he go straight to the main roster or does he go to NXT first?

A Rogue Hobo

For me, NXT. AJ Styles has been tremendous since debuting straight onto the main roster, but he is the exception not the rule. While people like us know who Okada is and sing his praises most wouldn't. The Bullet Club were the exception in general because of the huge worldwide buzz about this cool dominant nWo like faction, it's quite sad really how much they messed up that unit considering the buzz there was when they signed, to now. Really left money on the table.

beakerjoe

You could make a good argument for a multiple of ways Okada could be used.

You could argue that NXT is the right place, sighting how its eased Nakamura in nicely to a niche audience who know who he is and what he’s capable of, while exposing him to an American audience who may be unfamiliar to him.

On the other side, many think Nakamura is wasted in NXT and should be on the MR already and you could argue that Okada is above NXT.

You could argue that hes talented enough to go straight onto the main roster. AJ Styles managed it with ease and Okada is arguable as talented as AJ and arguably as deserving.

On the flip side you could argue with Vinces track record with foreign stars on the main roster that it may not be the best place to insert him immediately and that he could easily be mishandled.

Id say its a while off before Okada is WWE bound and by the time that he does make the jump (if ever), you may look at how Nakamura was handled in the time between (Was he promoted, how did he fair?). I speculate if he ever did the move, a run in NXT at least could settle him in.

leggo

It wouldn't be in Okada's best interest to go straight to the main roster. Nakamura has the character there that is most easily transferable to an international audience and he needed to be introduced via NXT. Sending Okada out now and treating him with the same respect as Nakamura by keeping his character, name and legend would see the audience react to him like they're reacting to the new cruiserweights, his gimmick would look like a Japanese take on MVP's (this really important guy people have never heard of). He'd get respect and recognition in NXT and build his way up to being a ready-made star by the time he debuted on the main roster.

Of course all of that is saying nothing of their talent or legacy, it's just how recognisable NJPW guys would be in WWE's world. On merit alone they should debut against Cena day one.

sky88

i really havent seen the big deal on okada. i mean hes good in the ring but i im not a fan but cant really figure out why.

Clegg

sky88 wrote: »

i really havent seen the big deal on okada. i mean hes good in the ring but i im not a fan but cant really figure out why.

Okada was given the Cena/Reigns mega push. He got the title matches, the central focus of the show, put front and centre of advertising campaigns etc. Became exceedingly obvious that he was NJPW's guy for the future and some people were put off by that. Plus the fact that he was replacing a beloved star in Tanahashi.

But he's pretty well liked by the Japanese audience in general. It helps that he's an extremely good wrestler unlike early years Cena and Reigns. People are entertained by his matches and he plays the cocky chosen one character very well.

He's facing another problem now too. He's the IWGP Champion but beat the hottest wrestler in the company to do it. Naito is the guy right now but is getting the short shrift from the company. Although NJPW are smart enough to work this into his Wrestle Kingdom storyline. He felt disrespected by the company and the fans so now wants the main event at the Tokyo Dome to show how wrong they were and rub it in their faces.

LeeJM

Love the amswers re Okada in WWE. Heres another question, do ye think WWE reemphasising the Intercontinental Title has anything got to do with NJPW having a title of the same name that headlines shows? Or is it just down to the brand split and giving The Miz as champion a chance to get over due to having more time for talent to establish their characters?

beakerjoe

LeeJM wrote: »

Love the amswers re Okada in WWE. Heres another question, do ye think WWE reemphasising the Intercontinental Title has anything got to do with NJPW having a title of the same name that headlines shows? Or is it just down to the brand split and giving The Miz as champion a chance to get over due to having more time for talent to establish their characters?

Its down to the brand split. I feel the writers have done a splendid job getting the title over and its really how it should be presented. Miz and Dolph have been great in their respective roles. NJPW have always had the IC title held in high regard so I doubt anything they did pushed WWE into it

Omackeral

LeeJM wrote: »

Love the amswers re Okada in WWE. Heres another question, do ye think WWE reemphasising the Intercontinental Title has anything got to do with NJPW having a title of the same name that headlines shows? Or is it just down to the brand split and giving The Miz as champion a chance to get over due to having more time for talent to establish their characters?

beakerjoe wrote: »

Its down to the brand split. I feel the writers have done a splendid job getting the title over and its really how it should be presented. Miz and Dolph have been great in their respective roles. NJPW have always had the IC title held in high regard so I doubt anything they did pushed WWE into it

If NJPW was the bar setter, then the Dolph v Miz IC Title match would have headlined No Mercy. It should have, regardless, anyway if they were intent on doing the 3 way as the opener.

A Brad Maddox Guy

WWE through Dolph & Miz have done more for the IC title than at least the previous 5 years - most likely more but I was out of the loop at that point. What will be interesting to see now is if it was a one-off or not. Miz & Dolph had a great storyline delivered fantastically by the two guys but it's most likely coming to an end soon with (I hope) Miz being elevated and Dolph needing a new challenger. Only then will we know if WWE are committed to reviving the IC title but if they are then it should have headlined No Mercy.

To answer the question I also think brand split as Smackdown has been well written for the most part.

Riddle101

Every time I see a Steel Cage Match, someone jumps off the top of the cage, but would it take away from the match itself if they didn't do that spot? It's an overdone spot that I feel makes no sense in the grand scheme of things. It worked for Jeff Hardy back in the day because he was a daredevil and I guess it plays to his character to do it, but watching other people do it for no reason just ruins it for me. Also they should get rid of pinfall victories in the cage too, it should always be about escaping the cage.

Mr.Nice Guy

Riddle101 wrote: »

Also they should get rid of pinfall victories in the cage too, it should always be about escaping the cage.

I don't agree that it should always be about escaping the cage. The original point of the cage match was to prevent interference in matches so that the dastardly heel would be stuck in there with the battling babyface; and there must be a winner. Escaping the cage can work well at times for heels, but I think it's much better for a babyface to beat the heel and pin him clean inside the cage. At times I find it looks poor visually to see the babyface trying to escape the confines of the match.

leggo

It should depend on the context of the feud and the reason for the match what the rules are IMO.

Rikishi jumping off the top of the cage was another awesome moment btw.

Clegg

I posted earlier about Naito but I'm interested in others opinions. For me he's the best wrestler in the business right now. He's an excellent wrestler and almost always has great matches. Plus his storyline is great.

A few years ago he had a title shot at the heavyweight title at WrestleKingdom but his main event status was usurped because Nakamura was so over as Interconental champ and got to defend it in what was basically the main event. Now Naito is the most over. He's the IC champ and the one everyone wants to see and he knows it. He wants the main event and may very well get it. It's all be brought into the story. It's a fantastic blurring of real life and wrestling booking.

leggo

I think they know exactly what they're doing with Naito. I think it's a really well done version of WWE's Daniel Bryan storyline, in that they've fallen into it but now they're milking the **** out of it. And because NJPW's year is a lot less dense than WWE's, they can drag it out over a long time so when he finally gets his due it'll be perfect. I've no idea where they're going with Okada/Omega but wouldn't be surprised if Naito and co show up either at the end or after the match to cause havoc.

Glico Man

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I don't agree that it should always be about escaping the cage. The original point of the cage match was to prevent interference in matches so that the dastardly heel would be stuck in there with the battling babyface.

I have to agree a lot with this point, and having recently rewatched the Austin/McMahon cage match at St. Valentine's Day Massacre, the above quote is the perfect description of what happened. Vince was stuck in that environment with Austin. People were basically baying for McMahons blood. Although Paul 'Big Show' Wight still managed to interfere somehow, though it ended with a cage escape. Of sorts

PTH2009

thinking to myself being a pro wrestler full time compared to other full time jobs would be not bad.

Pros

You only work about 3 times a week and the most you would be working would be 15-20 mins a night

You make a good bit of $$$$$ and travel the world

You to get to meet loads of people

Cons

A lot of travelling involved and in the us/canada you have to pay your own way

You have to be 100% perfect all the time and be in great physical shape

WinnyThePoo

PTH2009 wrote: »

thinking to myself being a pro wrestler full time compared to other full time jobs would be not bad.

Pros

You only work about 3 times a week and the most you would be working would be 15-20 mins a night

You make a good bit of $$$$$ and travel the world

You to get to meet loads of people

Cons

A lot of travelling involved and in the us/canada you have to pay your own way

You have to be 100% perfect all the time and be in great physical shape

I find this mental about Wrestling , how they can keep going for so long. I often wonder should WWE have an off season for wrestlers to give their bodys abit of a break!

martyos121

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

I find this mental about Wrestling , how they can keep going for so long. I often wonder should WWE have an off season for wrestlers to give their bodys abit of a break!

The idea I've heard to address the issue that I personally like is a rotating off-season, meaning everyone gets time off at different points, so you could have Cena leaving for 3 months for example, with Styles coming back around the same point so there's always high level talent on the weekly shows. It's starting to happen indirectly (some guys going off TV to shoot movies or TV shows and coming back refreshed). It also combats the worst part of WWE programming: overexposure.

jaykhunter

I wonder if it'd eat at you that the world thinks you're a phoney play-fighter. And don't forget the constant pain! Pro: legendary pain tolerance.

LeeJM

PTH2009 wrote: »

thinking to myself being a pro wrestler full time compared to other full time jobs would be not bad.

Pros

You only work about 3 times a week and the most you would be working would be 15-20 mins a night

You make a good bit of $$$ and travel the world

You to get to meet loads of people

Cons

A lot of travelling involved and in the us/canada you have to pay your own way

You have to be 100% perfect all the time and be in great physical shape

Thats an awfully simplistic view of the way it works. You are forgetting the hours of training just to get to your first match. The cost of said training. The fact that you will make very little money until you become a "name" guy/girl. You will need to work a full/part time job to pay for training or gym time while being a wrestler. You will more than likely get screwed by a promoter at least once. Your social life will be non-existent if you really wanna make it big. And thats before you ever make it outside of the UK&Ireland scene.


Then lets say you make it to a company like RoH. You will have visas to sort out. You will need to find somewhere to base yourself and live while you arent on the road. You still need to train daily to maintain your physical condition. You will probably need to work outside of RoH to supplement whatever money you are getting from them. You will need to get used to living in a new city and country. You will need to sort out transport for yourself. You will have different taxes to pay depending on where you work or live.


And after all of that you still need to deliver in the ring and on the mic. And even the above is probably only a quarter of the stuff you need to do to reach a certain level as a wrestler. Hell I didnt even mention the wear on your body and what may happen if you get injured and cant work for a long period of time. But yea that wrestling stuff is a breeze....

Riddle101

Dutch Mantel/Zeb Colter has been dismissing WWE creative on twitter for a while now, he even tweeted that he wished he could control WWE for 1 month. I would love to see him in a prominent creative role. I think he has a good mind for the business, has enough experience in the role given his work throughout his career, has an exceptional record in the role of booker, and he's a proper wrestling guy, not a Hollywood writer or someone with little experience and knowledge of the business.

I mean, they always say it good to have veterans in the locker room to help teach the younger guys about the business and all, so why not do the same in creative. Having a veteran like Mantell would be invaluable to the other writers I think because he can pass on his knowledge and skills to them.

Snakeweasel

I wonder do kids notice any of the things we gripe about? I wonder is it as predictable to them? When I was a kid I didn't know anything behind the scenes so was shocked if someone debuted or left.

I couldn't remember who won a match a few months ago so it didnt bother me if there was 50/50 booking as long as my favorite good guy (Savio Vega) got to finally beat the dastardly bad guy at some point!

sky88

Snakeweasel wrote: »

I wonder do kids notice any of the things we gripe about? I wonder is it as predictable to them? When I was a kid I didn't know anything behind the scenes so was shocked if someone debuted or left.

I couldn't remember who won a match a few months ago so it didnt bother me if there was 50/50 booking as long as my favorite good guy (Savio Vega) got to finally beat the dastardly bad guy at some point!

i have a little brother whos 13 and and in the last couple of years i can see the change in were hes starting to get the same gripes and just annoynance at the product.

Snakeweasel

sky88 wrote: »

i have a little brother whos 13 and and in the last couple of years i can see the change in were hes starting to get the same gripes and just annoynance at the product.

That would have been the age I would have started too! once I discovered the wrestling teletext page on channel 4 it blew my mind! Always remember the rumours of Raven joining wwe seemed to last forever until he actually joined

jaykhunter

Snakeweasel wrote: »

I wonder do kids notice any of the things we gripe about? I wonder is it as predictable to them?

I don't think they'd have critical thinking/specific gripes, but I think it'd add up to a feeling of disinterest, and after ~2 years just stop watching.

Itssoeasy

Just watching legends with JBL with the living legend(no not Larry Zbyszko) but the one and only and statistically the greatest WWE world champion ever. Good interview and Bruno is a guy who cares about the business and he's not a fan of hogan. Haha atta boy Bruno.

Itssoeasy

Just watching legends with JBL with the living legend(no not Larry Zbyszko) but the one and only and statistically the greatest WWE world champion ever. Good interview and Bruno is a guy who cares about the business and he's not a fan of hogan. Haha atta boy Bruno.

J. Marston

James Ellsworth has a t-shirt....

http://shop.wwe.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-main/default/dwd65df04f/images/large/W12527.jpg