Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....

Itssoeasy

beakerjoe wrote: »

Just finished the Macho Man doc on the Network and while it was a good length for a beyond the ring doc, I was still craving more at the end. I found it was great to hear his backstory before he entered the world of wrestling. I couldn’t help but think did his wrestling career cause the injury which forced him out of baseball.

I found his work ethic and devotion to perfecting his interviews fascinating, and he came across as a very easy guy to work with from that perspective.

His relationship with Elizabeth was very interesting, especially the conflicting opinions of his naturally protective brother and other WWF personalities, which was very fresh for a WWE doc and gave the film a sense of honesty and it felt like these opinions were genuine. (unlike those in, lets say, a Triple H doc, where I question the validity of some of the wrestler statements due to Hunters position in the company). Lanny’s takes on his brother came across very raw and passionate, yet there is part of me thinking he was just trying to protect his brothers image.

I loved Brets line about how jealous he was at savage about his ability to bring his real life partner on the road as he was homesick and missing his wife and kids. I couldn’t blame Savage if he was protective about Liz, but he did seem overly paranoid if what the likes of Jimmy Hart and Hogan say are true (though I don’t trust anything out of Hogans mouth).

The potential Savage v Shawn program after Wrestlemania ten sounded like money in hindsight, I wonder if Shawn nixed the idea, or was it Vince not believing in Savage or a combination of both.

On the whole Steph/Savage rumour, it was always a rumour that never believed. I always felt it was too far-fetched to be true (and I still think its untrue). Vince’s kind words after Savage left suggest that while it may have been an hard break up (due to Savage going to work for Vince’s competition and Vince’s lack of faith in Savage), Vince’s words on air tells the story of a man who still respected Savage, something he never would do if Savage had been with Steph.

That being said I found it odd that WWE seemed to hint at some untold story when Savage shooted on WWE and Hunter after WCW got purchased. Seemed very odd and seemed to subtlety suggest something happened. I can’t see why this was part of the doc.

The never mentioned Sherri which seemed odd too or anything to do with Warrior or his Macho King phase. The never mentioned his feud with Flair either which again seemed like something they could of mentioned.

Overall I could of watched another 3 hours’ worth of story and I feel they could of elaborated on a lot more of the content and added more details about his career feuds. A very good watch even if it did leave me wanting more in places.

Yeah I liked the macho man doc. And as you say it tried to explain the macho man and Elizabeth dynamic very honestly. I mean in a way I can understand randys paranoia as Liz was beautiful and she was on the road with aload of wrestlers and I'm sure it wasn Liz he didn't trust.

The Steph thing I've never believed one bit. If anything even remotely what is alledged to have happened did happen then randy wouldn't have gotten to the first show with WCW before Jim devvit would have sued him faster then he could have said WCW.

Blue_Dabadee

PTH2009 wrote: »

So superstars has been cancelled

Aw, the memories of Primo vs. Yoshi Tatsu each week. Also, that time when JTG oversold Cobra Strike.

In seriousness, it was a good show to watch during first three years.

Chain Smoker

I'd be kind of okay with Flair dying tbh, my big fear for Flair is that he's so heavily of the past in his behaviour that he might do something that'll **** all over his legacy. From what I know of him, most of his antics have been reasonably harmless (infidelity, a tendency to expose himself loads, being a creepy flirt with any woman in his vicinity) but it's all stuff that could snowball into something awful.

leggo

Chain Smoker wrote: »

I'd be kind of okay with Flair dying tbh, my big fear for Flair is that he's so heavily of the past in his behaviour that he might do something that'll **** all over his legacy. From what I know of him, most of his antics have been reasonably harmless (infidelity, a tendency to expose himself loads, being a creepy flirt with any woman in his vicinity) but it's all stuff that could snowball into something awful.

To be fair they're fairly big red flags, especially the indecent exposure!

beakerjoe

Infidelity isnt reasonably harmless. Families on both sides can be ruined and torn apart.

Chain Smoker

beakerjoe wrote: »

Infidelity isnt reasonably harmless. Families on both sides can be ruined and torn apart.

It's reasonably harmless to the public image of Ric Flair. And, in that respect, I was pretty obviously talking in a context relative to something like rape, which is significantly less socially acceptable and utterly impossible to explain away.


I dunno, that seems like really needless nitpicking over words that had a pretty clear context, albeit not perfectly phrased.

beakerjoe

Chain Smoker wrote: »

It's reasonably harmless to the public image of Ric Flair. And, in that respect, I was pretty obviously talking in a context relative to something like rape, which is significantly less socially acceptable and utterly impossible to explain away.


I dunno, that seems like really needless nitpicking over words that had a pretty clear context, albeit not perfectly phrased.

Apologies if I seem to be nit-picking, I do see your point that in the grand scheme of things its socially more acceptable. I, personally, the infidelity side of things always still brings someone down in my opinion, especially if they are a serial offender. I know nobody’s perfect, but I would hold guys like, say Kevin Owens etc in much higher esteem because of their family values.

I know its not the same, but take Ryan Giggs for example. I used to hold him in very high regard until his infidelity’s came out. Hes still a legend as a player but his reputation and aura is tarnished beyond repair for me.

And while Flair is still one of the best wrestlers in his sport, his reputation has been tarnished in so many ways in the last 15 or so years, his aura is also damaged beyond repair.

Chain Smoker

beakerjoe wrote: »

Apologies if I seem to be nit-picking, I do see your point that in the grand scheme of things its socially more acceptable. I, personally, the infidelity side of things always still brings someone down in my opinion, especially if they are a serial offender. I know nobody’s perfect, but I would hold guys like, say Kevin Owens etc in much higher esteem because of their family values.

I know its not the same, but take Ryan Giggs for example. I used to hold him in very high regard until his infidelity’s came out. Hes still a legend as a player but his reputation and aura is tarnished beyond repair for me.

And while Flair is still one of the best wrestlers in his sport, his reputation has been tarnished in so many ways in the last 15 or so years, his aura is also damaged beyond repair.

Ah okay, we're basically in agreement on the main parts so!

There are these characters in their 60s and up who basically seem to get judged by a wholly different standard for being consistent with their dodgy behaviour and it always just feels like their one incident away from making people realise how stupid that double standard is.

I'm someone who tends to be pretty forgiving of people's flaws (and I am towards Flair too*), but there's an awful lot of times where he says something and I'm like "I can't believe this guy hasn't been curtailed and/or completely abandoned by the industry". Dude's a ticking bomb.


* I don't think a character like Ric Flair could be Ric Flair for as long and as well as Ric Flair has been Ric Flair without their personal life being a ****ing mess and there being a lot of victims to his impulsivity along the way. On the basis of what I know he has done, I'm able to not let that effect my enjoyment of his work for the most part, but there's definitely a limit to how far I can go there.

beakerjoe

Its very hard for a wrestler or anybody not to have their legacy devalue as they age in the limelight like Flair has, especially in a day and age where celebrities are exposed 24/7 to the public, and where the media are literally waiting for them to slip up.

Steve Lombardi put it well when he recalled a story of Talk Is Jericho of being pulled over by a cop while driving with Hogan. Instead of being given a ticket for speeding and wreckless driving, Hogan gave out autographs to the cops who were starstruck. Lombardi says its different now, where cops are delighted to catch a top star speeding so they can nail him and get 5 mins of fame.

From Hogan, to Flair, they all seem like men who have fallen from grace to in different ways, where as an Eddie Guererro is remembered more fondly as our freshest memory of him was him in arguably the most successful time in his career where as our freshest memory of the three Ive named above are incidents of Racism, Drunk and rude behaviour respectively.

I do agree Flair wouldn’t be Flair without his wild lifestyle as it was an extension of his on-screen character. While I do also agree that I forgive stars like Flair and Hogan to a degree, I feel sad that their legacies are being tarnished.

Omackeral

Then you have the likes of Ricky Steamboat who is universally loved and respected. Flair and Hogan have these massive egos that they can't and never could keep in check. Hogan with his politicking and BS Metallica/Laila Ali stories. Flair with his rubbishing of the greatest send off ever in wrestling history and carry on like a 20 something year old. These fellas are their own worst enemies IMO/

sky88

i think its how out in the open that these things are. i think with flair his escapades are out there with a quick google. Hogans terrible behavior is out there for all to see.

Flair to me just cant be out of the limelight of wrestling and just cant let go of being the nature boy. But i think the deaths in wrestling have hit him hard over the last 20 years as some of them were his best friends then of course reids death which i dont think hell ever recover from.

Eddie has the redemption story of getting clean from drinks and drugs but for a few years seemed like he was out of control. Getting fired from wwe and cheating on vickie.

Chain Smoker

Omackeral wrote: »

Then you have the likes of Ricky Steamboat who is universally loved and respected. Flair and Hogan have these massive egos that they can't and never could keep in check. Hogan with his politicking and BS Metallica/Laila Ali stories. Flair with his rubbishing of the greatest send off ever in wrestling history and carry on like a 20 something year old. These fellas are their own worst enemies IMO/

Yeah but a world with nothing but Ricky Steamboats would be one boring as **** world. Give me a Kanye ahead of a Dave Grohl.

Regarding Flair's retirement. I don't think it's at all fair to attack Flair for not following through on a retirement that wasn't his decision though. He absolutely should've retired by then if not a couple of years earlier but WWE can go **** themselves if they're gonna claim the independent contractor nonsense and hold the right to dictate every detail of person's career.
(his run in TNA was infinitely more fun that the entirety of his second WWE run w/e of the retirement angle too)

Angron

The only thing of his TNA run that really stood out as being "good" was Jay Lethal doing an impression. Everything else just felt like crappy rehashes of the Horsemen or his rivalries with Sting and Hogan.

Chain Smoker

Angron wrote: »

The only thing of his TNA run that really stood out as being "good" was Jay Lethal doing an impression. Everything else just felt like crappy rehashes of the Horsemen or his rivalries with Sting and Hogan.

Whoops sorry, Flair's performances were generally great (probably on account of the handcuffs being removed, iirc he was quite restricted in WWE following that deranged promo about deflowering virgins at a smackdown taping around 2004), the material was largely by Vince Russo and therefore total garbage.

Itssoeasy

sky88 wrote: »

Flair to me just cant be out of the limelight of wrestling and just cant let go of being the nature boy. But i think the deaths in wrestling have hit him hard over the last 20 years as some of them were his best friends then of course reids death which i dont think hell ever recover from.
.

That's an interesting point and one that Kevin Sullivan made on his podcast a few weeks ago about how much pro wrestlers struggle when they are out of the limelight as they have been playing a character to some degree using a different look and most likely a different name for years and in flairs case it must be hard to go from Ric flair to Richard fliehr all of a sudden.

He said the guys that use their real names have a less hard time as the character is a character but they don't have to use a different name.

I just thought it was an interesting thing that I'd never really thought about.

Angron

Chain Smoker wrote: »

Whoops sorry, Flair's performances were generally great (probably on account of the handcuffs being removed, iirc he was quite restricted in WWE following that deranged promo about deflowering virgins at a smackdown taping around 2004), the material was largely by Vince Russo and therefore total garbage.

Ah, I get what you mean. Sorry, thought you meant the storylines.

ShagNastii

I stated in the RAW thread my love for the Sheamus/Cesaro storyline. Like all, I think Cesaro is F'n boss. But I can't help but scratch my head with the James Bond, 007ish tweaks he has acquired in his most recent run. What exactly is the gimmick if you were to put in on paper?

CastorTroy

Think I said it before, but watching Joe fight Dillinger made me think again that I would love to see what Joe and Brock could do.

Omackeral

ShagNastii wrote: »

I stated in the RAW thread my love for the Sheamus/Cesaro storyline. Like all, I think Cesaro is F'n boss. But I can't help but scratch my head with the James Bond, 007ish tweaks he has acquired in his most recent run. What exactly is the gimmick if you were to put in on paper?

The Professional International I guess. Suave, sophisticated and get's sh*t done. All in a suit and with an accent.

leggo

Omackeral wrote: »

The Professional International I guess. Suave, sophisticated and get's sh*t done. All in a suit and with an accent.

Yeah, I get the gimmick, it's fairly straightforward right?? I dunno if I'd see it working in the main event of WrestleMania, like the entrance is fun but mid-card, but I like it for him and it seems to have opened him up a lot.

billion dollar baby

His entrance is ridiculous lets be honest. He just looks like a stripper

Riddle101

leggo wrote: »

Yeah, I get the gimmick, it's fairly straightforward right?? I dunno if I'd see it working in the main event of WrestleMania, like the entrance is fun but mid-card, but I like it for him and it seems to have opened him up a lot.

Agreed, it comes off as a mid-card gimmick all things considered. Reminds me of Dean Malenko's gimmick. But it's basically like Val Venis or The Godfather, characters that do well as mid-card acts, but wouldn't make it in the main event scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSffl064Usc

billion dollar baby wrote: »

His entrance is ridiculous lets be honest. He just looks like a stripper

I remember when he first did it I thought it was fine because he wanted to make a surprise return. But now there's no real point to it.

Nerdkiller1991

Well, thank the gods our GameStop got those prepaid WWE Network cards, as I can finally get on there now.

CastorTroy

A couple thoughts:
Who would've thought in 2016 Matt Hardy would be so over and more talked about than his brother?

And how is it, a wrestler can issue an open challenge or just be interrupted leading to a match right away in which they lose their title, yet other times they have to have a contract signing for the title? Could they dispute losing the title as not being an officially contracted match? Or is it oral contract?

Blue_Dabadee

I would hope for when Hardy Boys come back to WWE that they still keep broken gimmick alive. Dudley Boys are proof that there is no point in nostalgia runs.

cian68

Blue_Dabadee wrote: »

I would hope for when Hardy Boys come back to WWE that they still keep broken gimmick alive. Dudley Boys are proof that there is no point in nostalgia runs.

You're probably right that they should try to be fresh in WWE instead of a nostalgia tour but I'm not sure the Dudleys are a like for like comparison. The Hardys can still put on a decent tag match but D-von is fu*king finished.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Itssoeasy wrote: »

The NWA worlds title belt known as the globed dome belt.its a nice belt and has the lineage of the NWA whereas the big gold belt is more or less a WCW thing(or at least most closely associated with WCW)

The ten pounds of gold, the most prestigious belt in the history of Pro Wrestling.

The fact that fat clowns in the modern day such as Colt Cabana have held this title seriously devalue it though.

If were on the NWA booking committee today, I would see to it that Cody Rhodes becomes the official Champion of the World in the near future. In tribute to his Dad.

Dustin should have held it in TNA, but instead they attempted a rip off of his WWE character and made him look like a retard.

sky88

Cody really isn't that good of a wrestler. I think the mid card in wwe suited him perfectly. His matches on the indies have been nothing special againist some of the best in the world like chris hero. Doesn't deserve half the hype he's getting and if he wasn't dustys kid wouldn't be getting it.

Chain Smoker

sky88 wrote: »

Cody really isn't that good of a wrestler. I think the mid card in wwe suited him perfectly. His matches on the indies have been nothing special againist some of the best in the world like chris hero. Doesn't deserve half the hype he's getting and if he wasn't dustys kid wouldn't be getting it.

Yep, what Cody is is a fantastic midcarder, you can bounce him around into all manner of gimmick and twist and turn and he'll fill up some time okay. He's not got the look or in ring charisma to go further though.

He needed to leave WWE for a while though, they were completely forgetting about him with the stardust gimmick and he was well on his way to being demoted to the rock bottom of the card.

LeeJM

The original Undertaker vs Kane feud in the build up to WrestleMania 14 doesnt get half of the praise it should. 'Taker refusing to hit his brother made great tv. And Kane was made to look like an absolute monster who nobody could stop. It was just a brilliantly simple story to understand.