Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....

leggo

I think you're underrating how furiously stubborn Vince can be when it comes to pushing big guys whether they're getting reactions or not!

Bounty Hunter

Cass is this generations non roidy Test

beakerjoe

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

Cass is this generations non roidy Test

He looks alot greenier than Test and he has a bigger frame too which may limit him in terms of what moves he can do. But he's young and has potential. I don't think hes as bad as people think.

Test was very under rated. He was very agile and nimble for a big man and had a lovely move set. (Loved his big boot/ top rope elbow / pump handle slam)

Agent Coulson

I wonder what the chances are that Dixie will do some more work with the WWE now that she has worked on the Angle doc.


She would be a good talking head for AJ, Joe, The Hardys, Sting.

Snakeweasel

Random question as much as it is a thought, is Benoit's WCW title win recognised in the "record books"? I know WWE made a big deal of him winning the title there but is that kind of like how they don't recognise Joe as a former world champ because it was with the competition?

Did they only recognise Booker T as multiple times champion since he was champion when WCW was bought out by WWE? I dont recall them putting DDP over as a former world champion during his run, same as Scott Steiner, but I could be wrong as that's over 15 years ago now. But I digress.

Anywho, original question, Benoit, 1 or 2 time world champion?

Angron

beakerjoe wrote: »

He looks alot greenier than Test and he has a bigger frame too which may limit him in terms of what moves he can do. But he's young and has potential. I don't think hes as bad as people think.

Test was very under rated. He was very agile and nimble for a big man and had a lovely move set. (Loved his big boot/ top rope elbow / pump handle slam)

Test's big boot was a thing of beauty, looked like he was really trying to kill people with it.

Mr.Nice Guy

Snakeweasel wrote: »

Random question as much as it is a thought, is Benoit's WCW title win recognised in the "record books"? I know WWE made a big deal of him winning the title there but is that kind of like how they don't recognise Joe as a former world champ because it was with the competition?

Did they only recognise Booker T as multiple times champion since he was champion when WCW was bought out by WWE? I dont recall them putting DDP over as a former world champion during his run, same as Scott Steiner, but I could be wrong as that's over 15 years ago now. But I digress.

Anywho, original question, Benoit, 1 or 2 time world champion?

WCW didn't recognise the win. Sid's foot was under the ropes when he submitted which was supposed to be a storyline reason to set up a rematch between new champ Benoit and Sid - but then Benoit left so WCW changed the plans and claimed that because Sid's foot was under the ropes, the title was now vacant.

As I recall leading up to Mania 20, the storyline was about Benoit trying to become the World Champion for the first time, so I don't think WWE recognised him as a former World Champion back then. But apparently WWE records do have him as a former WCW Champion - even though when WCW were in business they did not!

So basically it comes down to interpretation.

beakerjoe

Angron wrote: »

Test's big boot was a thing of beauty, looked like he was really trying to kill people with it.

He always looked full of power in the execution of his moves.

The would have a great snap in his gut wrench powerbombs and pumphandle slams too.

I have to look back at his match with Brock from 2002 KotR. Both men killing eachother.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Who recognizes the TNA title as a world title apart from themselves?

Didn't PWI magazine downgrade it years ago.

I wonder what would the likes of AJ consider to be his first world title win.

martyos121

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Who recognizes the TNA title as a world title apart from themselves?

Didn't PWI magazine downgrade it years ago.

I wonder what would the likes of AJ consider to be his first world title win.

The TNA title was a legitimate world title in my eyes until the moment Hogan and Bischoff showed up there. From that moment on, it started to lose its value. Everyone probably has a different opinion on it, and I accept that many never saw it as a proper world title. Honestly, when Angle and Joe were feuding over it, that title meant more to me than the WWE Championship.

As the old saying goes, "the title doesn't make the man, the man makes the title". Same goes for a great feud of course.

SureYWouldntYa

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Who recognizes the TNA title as a world title apart from themselves?

Didn't PWI magazine downgrade it years ago.

I wonder what would the likes of AJ consider to be his first world title win.

It's the main title for a brand seen as respectable at various times, I'd consider it a world title

Now the revamped ECW title from 2006, there's a "world" title that shouldn't be regarded as such

Itssoeasy

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Who recognizes the TNA title as a world title apart from themselves?

Didn't PWI magazine downgrade it years ago.

I wonder what would the likes of AJ consider to be his first world title win.

As far as I know the WWE title and now the universal title are the only ones recognised as world titles by PWI.

leggo

I'd consider the WWE, WCW and NWA titles to be the only 'World Titles' that count. For it to have any credence as a 'World Title', for me, you have to be able to claim that it was at one point the most important championship in wrestling. I wouldn't argue with someone who counted the IWGP Heavyweight belt either, though, but then that gets messy because it wasn't always what it is today and do you start counting the GHC belt (which was more prestigious than that for a period)? So that's why I wouldn't anyway. WWE, WCW and NWA are the only belts that can truly claim that without dispute IMO.

Riddle101

I definitely think there is an argument to be made about the TNA World Championship being recognized as a world title, but I think wrestling fans have been conditioned to believe WWE's way of thinking in regards to World Championships. The only titles WWE consider world titles are all the WWE World Championships, the WCW World Championship, and the NWA Championship. WWE doesn't seem to recognize the TNA, ECW, AWA or the IWGP Heavyweight Championship, despite how well known they are. I guess they only really count promotions who were legitimate competition to them.

x43r0

Riddle101 wrote: »

I definitely think there is an argument to be made about the TNA World Championship being recognized as a world title, but I think wrestling fans have been conditioned to believe WWE's way of thinking in regards to World Championships. The only titles WWE consider world titles are all the WWE World Championships, the WCW World Championship, and the NWA Championship. WWE doesn't seem to recognize the TNA, ECW, AWA or the IWGP Heavyweight Championship, despite how well known they are. I guess they only really count promotions who were legitimate competition to them.

History is written by the victors

SureYWouldntYa

I'd consider it a world title when the brand it's for is a worldwide brand and has some of the best talent in the world, and by best I'd mean a few from the top 10/15 at the time

TNA back in 2006 for instance had a lot of the best in the world, and were a brand reaching worldwide at the time, mind past about 2013 that was no longer the case and I wouldn't promote Magnus or Eric Young as a world champion

ROH right now is getting there but it wouldn't be a world title in my eyes yet

leggo

I love these debates. So pointless and meaningless but so many different viewpoints that can all be legitimate.

Would you ever, at any point, have said that the TNA Champion is THE champion in wrestling though? I don't think there was one point, even during the brief period when the quality of the product was high and they had a semi-decent TV deal, where that would be the case. I mean they had Christian go on a ridiculously long winning streak while winning the title too after his debut. Regardless of what you think of Christian, he was never at that level, doesn't even look physically imposing, and it's a move that just reeks of second rate. And that was during TNA's peak!

It's interesting when the ROH Title gets brought up. I'd say that was more relevant from 2004-06 personally. These days, I'd say the EVOLVE Title is more relevant because the majority of young talent setting the world on fire wrestles there as opposed to ROH. In the future when we see packages of wrestlers working their way up through the indies, the footage will likely come from EVOLVE and not ROH as it has the past while. When the ROH Title gets defended on a big show like Wrestle Kingdom now, it's put as a mid-card filler match, met with silence and never steals the show or comes close. I'd never have considered it the premiere title in pro-wrestling, but even less so these days than ever.

SureYWouldntYa

I said 2006 because that's when Angle joined, that was a point where they could really start being seen as some sort of competition. When TNA got their own world title in 2007 and Angle was the champion, if he wasn't the best in the world there's no way he wasn't top 5. Sting and Samoa Joe were also champs not long after, and Joe was definitely still a big deal then if not as iron hot as 2006.

The champions in WWE at the time would have been Cena during the absolute worst of supercena and the WHC had Khali, Batista and Edge. Angle and Joe were better than all of those at the time, as performers and wrestlers imo, so around that time it was for sure a world title.

I only mentioned ROH because they do call it a world title, but it's not and would never really have been a world title as they hadnt the same exposure as TNA would have had, they had some of the best in the world without the worldwide reach

leggo

So then where would the Lucha Underground title rank? The company has kinda fallen off a bit, but if you're talking companies that had TV exposure and a strong roster, that's got to count too right? I mean, TNA never came close to WWE in ratings, but neither did Lucha Underground. So would they qualify under the same logic? Prince Puma (Ricochet), John Morrisson and Matanza (Jeff Cobb) can all legitimately count as some of the best on the planet today.

Angron

I'd consider the IWGP title a world title, especially now with some of the amazing matches put on for that title. In the past I probably would have thought of the TNA as one, but not any more.

SureYWouldntYa

Difference is between some of the best, and the best. Not many will argue that any of those guys are the best in the world but I also haven't seen enough Lucha Underground to fully know

Omackeral

Evolve and Lucha Underground could never be true World Titles in the sense of a global championship. Even very hardcore fans would struggle to tell you the current champions of either promotions are. To be a true world champion IMO, you need a mixture of history, brand awareness and prestige legitimacy from the press. WWE definitely has all three in spades but then you get down to whether that applies to both the WWE Championship and the Universal Championship. Interesting topic. Does NJPW have similar? Perhaps.

Other things I've seen said that in order for a title to be considered a World Title it has to be defended outside its home country/continent. So ECW did that when they went to Japan, ditto WCW. ROH did it in the UK. Hell, CZW did it right here in Ireland. Is that enough though? Maybe regular tours are needed to legitimise it. TNA could claim it during their UK and Ireland tours I suppose. The NWA Title is another funny one, it obviously has regressed but does it's history stand to it?

leggo

I'd say the NWA title counts until it was merged with the WCW belt, then doesn't even resurrected by TNA.

Itssoeasy

The only wrestling world titles I think you can now(or historically) call a world title are the wwwf/WWF/WWE title, NWA worlds heavyweight title, WCW world heavyweight title, and AWA world title.

I say that because all of those titles have history to varying lengths behind them, and they were made to feel like world titles. They have had some of the best in pro wrestling history hold those titles. That's something that promotions outside of the WWE don't have due to them not having a long enough run.

I mean if you watch Harley race from the seventies being interviewed you are left in no doubt he is the best in the business and he is the real worlds champion. That the kind of thing that has lead to the world titles being held in the regard they have been held over the years.


I agree leggo, it's a funny conversation to have about a world title of a sport that isn't on the level been taken so seriously.

Omackeral

If you include the AWA Title then puts Mr Perfect, Rick Martel and Jerry Lawler as World Champions. It always felt a tad too regional IMO to be a World Title. On a par with Memphis and the USWA.

Itssoeasy

Omackeral wrote: »

If you include the AWA Title then puts Mr Perfect, Rick Martel and Jerry Lawler as World Champions. It always felt a tad too regional IMO to be a World Title. On a par with Memphis and the USWA.

Well the AWA title along with the WWF title were breakaways from the NWA title so I wouldn't personally say the AWA title is a regional title at all. I think Memphis being a regional promotion was the reason lawler got the AWA title so as to legitimise lawler on a national stage. The NWA and AWA had a unification match in the mid 1980s so clearly the NWA didn't feel it was a regional title.

WinnyThePoo

leggo wrote: »

So then where would the Lucha Underground title rank? The company has kinda fallen off a bit, but if you're talking companies that had TV exposure and a strong roster, that's got to count too right? I mean, TNA never came close to WWE in ratings, but neither did Lucha Underground. So would they qualify under the same logic? Prince Puma (Ricochet), John Morrisson and Matanza (Jeff Cobb) can all legitimately count as some of the best on the planet today.

I'm a big fan of Lucha Underground, but I would never have put their title anywhere near strength of the WWE Championship etc. Very young brand. Does have some of the best talent around though.

I don't watch ROH yet I know of the guys like Bryan, Rollins, CM Punk etc who have won it. It seems a pretty good indicator of who the best indie talent is in the america down the years.

leggo

Oh I agree, I'm of the opinion that WWE, WCW and NWA are the only ones that truly count, my point was that if you count TNA and ROH then it starts to get tenuous when other companies you'd never even think of counting would have to be considered.

Omackeral

leggo wrote: »

Oh I agree, I'm of the opinion that WWE, WCW and NWA are the only ones that truly count, my point was that if you count TNA and ROH then it starts to get tenuous when other companies you'd never even think of counting would have to be considered.

leggo, AWA: World Title yay or nay?

ERG89

I still don't take the Universal title seriously it was created for a brand not out of necessity. It's had a pretty rocky start too.
Then again Jinder Mahal holding the WWE Title drops it to as low of a level as I can remember viewing it.
IWGP one right now means so much as you look at the guys who have held it for most of the last decade Okada, Styles, Naito & especially Tanahashi it's now been risen far above any other one. It's rarely passed around like a parcel & the overall match quality of the defences is crazy.