Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....

Omackeral

I agree with that. In fact brand splits in general harm the prestige of world titles. I can't buy for a second that Jack Swagger, Christian or Dolph Ziggler would have captured a world title if there was only one strap. There should be one world title. The US and IC should be their brands top belt, the main one should go between and be top dog of the whole company. Would allow fresh challengers from both shows.

Itssoeasy

Omackeral wrote: »

I agree with that. In fact brand splits in general harm the prestige of world titles. I can't buy for a second that Jack Swagger, Christian or Dolph Ziggler would have captured a world title if there was only one strap. There should be one world title. The US and IC should be their brands top belt, the main one should go between and be top dog of the whole company. Would allow fresh challengers from both shows.

So the IC and US titles should be like the old territory champs and the world champ went and fought the top guy ?

Omackeral

Perhaps. Like wasn't the US champion usually the No1 contender to the worlds title? Have it on a rolling basis between brands, notwithstanding needed "contractual" rematches.

PTH2009

I wonder would aleister blacks gimmick work on the main roster ???

He could have a good rivialrys with Bray Wyatt and Finn Balor among others

Could become the first top Dutch WWE star

gerrybbadd

I'm genuinely surprised to see the IWGP title isn't held in higher regard. This is a true world title. Amazing lineage. Treated as a belt should be. This is how the WWE should treat their world championships

leggo

Omackeral wrote: »

leggo, AWA: World Title yay or nay?

I don't know...like the AWA was so big at a point that I wouldn't disagree with anyone who considered it. But did it ever have a legitimate claim to being the most prestigious belt in pro-wrestling (meaning above Flair's NWA Title at the time)? I don't think so, so probably wouldn't consider it myself. Then again, WWE have mythologised the AWA to such a degree in recent years through the Hall Of Fame etc that it's taken on a greater historical relevance. So was it a legitimate World Title? It's hard to say no. But would I consider it when saying someone was an X-time World Champ? Probably not, personally, no.

gerrybbadd wrote: »

I'm genuinely surprised to see the IWGP title isn't held in higher regard. This is a true world title. Amazing lineage. Treated as a belt should be. This is how the WWE should treat their world championships

I brought the IWGP belt into this and there's no doubt that today it's treated in high regard. But you also have to look at the fact that NJPW has only really become the truly prominent promotion in Japan again in recent years. NJPW wasn't really up to much during the last decade, for example, people tend to forget that. All-Japan was the top dog in Japan for so long, NOAH took over in the 00's, Zero-One was even more relevant for a period and NJPW has only really asserted itself as true alpha dog relatively recently.

And now, because people are getting into Japanese wrestling through it, they tend to view all of Japanese wrestling history through NJPW's rose-tinted glasses. So to have Brock Lesnar as a former champion looks really good today and seems to bolster the lineage, but when you know the facts you know he presided over one of the most pitiful Wrestle Kingdom main events and ended up having to vacate the title in a bit of a sad mess of a situation tied up with his WWE legal issues. New Japan wanted a stunt for relevance and Brock needed cash because his career was in limbo. It was a low point that gets painted as a high point today. And that's true of a lot of the history of the belt. It was only Tanahashi's reign on top, now bleeding into Okada's, that put it where it is today. So give them ten more years doing the same, breaking into the US and defending around the world, and then it's got a case IMO.

LeeJM

leggo wrote: »

I don't know...like the AWA was so big at a point that I wouldn't disagree with anyone who considered it. But did it ever have a legitimate claim to being the most prestigious belt in pro-wrestling (meaning above Flair's NWA Title at the time)? I don't think so, so probably wouldn't consider it myself. Then again, WWE have mythologised the AWA to such a degree in recent years through the Hall Of Fame etc that it's taken on a greater historical relevance. So was it a legitimate World Title? It's hard to say no. But would I consider it when saying someone was an X-time World Champ? Probably not, personally, no.

I would say there was a 10 year period between the mid 70s and mid 80s where the AWA Title was without doubt a legit World Title. Towards the end when you had Hennig and Lawler and Zbysko as champ I think you would say it was at the status of an ROH Title now, kinda regional but still a bit of a big deal.

I brought the IWGP belt into this and there's no doubt that today it's treated in high regard. But you also have to look at the fact that NJPW has only really become the truly prominent promotion in Japan again in recent years. NJPW wasn't really up to much during the last decade, for example, people tend to forget that. All-Japan was the top dog in Japan for so long, NOAH took over in the 00's, Zero-One was even more relevant for a period and NJPW has only really asserted itself as true alpha dog relatively recently.

You are totally glossing over the early to mid 90s period of NJ where All Japan was getting plaudits for its matches but New Japan was drawing record crowds to the Dome. It was constantly selling out huge arenas and up until the Okada era the mid 90s NJPW with Chono, Hashimoto and Mutoh as the leading men was the most successful era of pretty much any Japanese promotion. And I would say Zero-One was never more relevant than New Japan. It may have been more relevant to Western audiences but in Japan, without looking up any figures, I doubt it ever out drew or was more popular on a consistent basis than New Japan even if NJ was in that horrible Inoki era of MMA meets wrestling.

And now, because people are getting into Japanese wrestling through it, they tend to view all of Japanese wrestling history through NJPW's rose-tinted glasses. So to have Brock Lesnar as a former champion looks really good today and seems to bolster the lineage, but when you know the facts you know he presided over one of the most pitiful Wrestle Kingdom main events and ended up having to vacate the title in a bit of a sad mess of a situation tied up with his WWE legal issues. New Japan wanted a stunt for relevance and Brock needed cash because his career was in limbo. It was a low point that gets painted as a high point today. And that's true of a lot of the history of the belt. It was only Tanahashi's reign on top, now bleeding into Okada's, that put it where it is today. So give them ten more years doing the same, breaking into the US and defending around the world, and then it's got a case IMO.

That Brock reign was garbage, I think everyone will agree on that. But I do think you are playing down the lineage of the IWGP Title. People forget New Japan put their title on Hogan before the WWF did. Vader had a great run as champion long before WCW Vader happened. Mutoh, Chono and Hash all had good runs and drew massive crowds. The late 90s through to late Tanahashi era was more miss than hit but that was down to poor management and Nakamura and Tanahashi taking time to grow into their roles. IMO the IWGP Title is definitely a World Title and this current Okada run has just cemented that.

sky88

For me ive always thought that a world title has to be defended worldwide to cement its place as a real world title. if the belt is only defended in one country be it Japan or america which i like now that the iwgp belt had a match in america. it think it makes the title feel more special when defended in countries other than the base country.

leggo

I think if NJPW continue to break away from the pack and become a world force as opposed to a Japanese one, as say WWE did after WCW and ECW died, until it's undisputed that they're THE promotion outside of WWE and nobody will come close for the foreseeable; if they continue along the lines of this year's progress of successfully breaking into new regions and having the belt defended there; if they continue to have it defended against the best non-WWE talent out there; if they can keep their big names, snag a name like Bryan or Punk and even attract a WWE main event level name like KO, Balor, Nakamura etc when WWE would like to keep them...then how do you not consider it a world title anymore? Then they could say it's defended worldwide, against some of the top talent of the era, and demonstrate how people who fought for it are choosing to fight for that above other world titles.

For now, many of the same arguments that (for me) sink TNA's claim can be levelled at NJPW. Japan's wrestling history is littered with this promotion being on top, then that promotion. If that's all this period turns out to be and this period ends with WWE taking all of NJPW's top names and reducing the company to rubble, then the likes of the GHC belt has just as strong a claim. How can you claim to be THE World Title in any facet of sports etc when, eventually, most of your big names decided they'd rather fight for a different title? If they go through the steps above, as said, then nobody can level that claim at them and they can claim that status. Kenny Omega's loyalty alone doesn't guarantee that, especially when we've seen so many others stay 'loyal' to their promotions in the past then eventually go back on that when the right offer from WWE came in.

LeeJM

leggo wrote: »

For now, many of the same arguments that (for me) sink TNA's claim can be levelled at NJPW. Japan's wrestling history is littered with this promotion being on top, then that promotion. If that's all this period turns out to be and this period ends with WWE taking all of NJPW's top names and reducing the company to rubble, then the likes of the GHC belt has just as strong a claim. How can you claim to be THE World Title in any facet of sports etc when, eventually, most of your big names decided they'd rather fight for a different title? If they go through the steps above, as said, then nobody can level that claim at them and they can claim that status. Kenny Omega's loyalty alone doesn't guarantee that, especially when we've seen so many others stay 'loyal' to their promotions in the past then eventually go back on that when the right offer from WWE came in.

So because no promotion in Japan reigns as top dog for more than 6-8 years you would say their titles are not that prestigious? So from the mid 80s through to 2001 did you not consider the WWF and NWA/WCW Titles to be World Titles because the power absolutely shifted between those promotions at various times. And top line talent was always going from one to the other.

The only difference between WWE and New Japan is that New Japan never fully destroyed All Japan and Noah because wrestling is so popular in Japan that they will always have a core audience who will attend shows. Hell New Japan even owned Noah until earlier this year. I think the argument you are making for the IWGP Title is more of an argument for the likes of Dragon Gate, PROGRESS, ICW, PWG and ROH.

leggo

I'm not saying it's not prestigious at all! In fact I've said the opposite. I'm going back to my earlier point that to consider something a World Title, as in including it in 'X-time World Champion' title reigns, it has to be considered at one stage to have been the most important title in the business indisputably. WWE, WCW and NWA all have that. The IWGP belt has a roadmap towards making a case, and is the only belt on the planet that even has that IMO, but it's not there yet and can't ever claim to have been.

LeeJM

leggo wrote: »

I'm not saying it's not prestigious at all! In fact I've said the opposite. I'm going back to my earlier point that to consider something a World Title, as in including it in 'X-time World Champion' title reigns, it has to be considered at one stage to have been the most important title in the business indisputably. WWE, WCW and NWA all have that. The IWGP belt has a roadmap towards making a case, and is the only belt on the planet that even has that IMO, but it's not there yet and can't ever claim to have been.

I guess we just have differing opinions on it as I would definitely count an IWGP Title reign towards somebodies total amount of World Title runs.

Omackeral

I think anyone after the Lesnar IWGP reign, but especially in the last 7 or 8 years, could make a case for being a premier world champion. It's really only been given to the best of the best. Tana, Okada, Naito, Nakamura and Styles. That's a who's who of stars, meaning star matches and star power.

LeeJM

Omackeral wrote: »

I think anyone after the Lesnar IWGP reign, but especially in the last 7 or 8 years, could make a case for being a premier world champion. It's really only been given to the best of the best. Tana, Okada, Naito, Nakamura and Styles. That's a who's who of stars, meaning star matches and star power.

The Naito run was a disaster though. So bad that after he dropped the belt he was sent to Mexico. Its only after he got back and started the LIJ and the not giving a fcuk Naito run that he got over. But yea other than that its been such a well protected belt in the 2010s.

Angron

The Naito run with the belt was after he came back and did LIJ, he never held the belt before that. His really forced face push was pretty dire though.

Omackeral

LeeJM wrote: »

The Naito run was a disaster though. So bad that after he dropped the belt he was sent to Mexico. Its only after he got back and started the LIJ and the not giving a fcuk Naito run that he got over. But yea other than that its been such a well protected belt in the 2010s.

I think they took it off him because he wasn't connecting with audiences, kinda protecting the title in a way. It's gas now because he'd slay with it today. The man makes the title in NJPW for the most part I think. The way the play up the lineage and count all previous reigns when introducing the current champ is great too though.

chopperbyrne

The All Japan Pro Wrestling Triple Crown Heavyweight Championship was about as prestigious as it gets from when it was established in 1989 until the late 90's, with some of the best ever holding the belt in some of the best matches ever.

briany

sky88 wrote: »

For me ive always thought that a world title has to be defended worldwide to cement its place as a real world title. if the belt is only defended in one country be it Japan or america which i like now that the iwgp belt had a match in america. it think it makes the title feel more special when defended in countries other than the base country.

On the other hand, an organisation like WWE would have a claim to say that, being the world's premier wrestling organisation, the best in the world come there, and therefore whoever is their champion is the best in the world by default. Or at least they could say that if they didn't insist on splitting the title into a separate one for each brand and having little real logic to contendership.

Itssoeasy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03jd5cqQGKg

All the talk about the AWA title got me to watching some nick bockwinkel promos. That lads is how to cut a promo. There are others like this but it just shows how to cut a promo. Bockwinkel made you believe what he was saying.

Angron

And then you see him in WCW at Starrcade 94 :pac:

Mr.Nice Guy

Itssoeasy wrote: »

All the talk about the AWA title got me to watching some nick bockwinkel promos. That lads is how to cut a promo. There are others like this but it just shows how to cut a promo. Bockwinkel made you believe what he was saying.

Bockwinkel and Heenan are arguably the best wrestler/manager combo ever. I would think they would be easily top 5.

Looper007

Itssoeasy wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03jd5cqQGKg

All the talk about the AWA title got me to watching some nick bockwinkel promos. That lads is how to cut a promo. There are others like this but it just shows how to cut a promo. Bockwinkel made you believe what he was saying.

He was a big influence on the suit wearing Chris Jericho heel run (probably Jericho's best run imo) and you can see it, check out his hour long match with a prime Curt Henning in AWA (it's on Mr Perfect WWE DVD). By the way, how awesome was Jerry Lawler back then, his feud with Terry Funk is a must watch. Fantastic stuff. You can see why Jim Cornette and many others say he's one of the best. He actually had Miz's best match in his awful WWE Champ run on Raw in a ladder match.

LeeJM

Lawler was sooooo good. I fully recommend people check out his feud with Funk. Also this cage match against Austin Idol is amazing

https://youtu.be/AWTgZUcFd14

Looper007

LeeJM wrote: »

Lawler was sooooo good. I fully recommend people check out his feud with Funk. Also this cage match against Austin Idol is amazing

https://youtu.be/AWTgZUcFd14

Plus Anything involving Superstar Bill Dundee, most of which led to riots (the hair match when Dundee's Wife got her hair shaved, is a thing of beauty). Just watch any Memphis wrestling from late 70's to mid 80's and you see wonderful stuff, Lawler's feud with Macho Man is also crazy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaUx99Z_J50

Pentecost

Without (hopefully) spoiling anything it seems there was somewhat of a tease during the Mae Young Classic of WWE's Four Horsewomen v the MMA Four Horsewomen (including Ronda). Would people want that? Personally if it was done right for WM or whatever I think it could be great.

DM_7

Yes please, a good use of crossover appeal from other sports.

I expect it could be some sort of tag team maybe Ronda and Shayna?

I know Roderick Strong is engaged to Shafir and I think she has appeared on camera for NXT.

Shayna was in total divas and trianed with some of the WWE ladies. Shayna is also in a good place to carry a match for her team.

If they use Ronda it would be much better to see her v an actual wrestler to get eyes on them rather than some new altercation with Steph as I would have expected.

ERG89

Ronda will have to go over. Her ego can't take another loss. Bring in Edmund too. :pac:

DEFTLEFTHAND

Anyone know why Sheamus stopped using the High Cross as his finisher. It's a Razors Edge with a running finish.

I've been watching back on his early days on the Network recently and it certainly was a devastating finish.

I presume the reason it was vetoed was because it's a potentially dangerous move to take. If it goes wrong you could land down heavily on your neck.

leggo

Didn't he nearly paralyse Jamie Noble with it?

Running powebombs = never a good idea. D'Lo ended Droz's career with one and Rollins ended Sting's career too.

gerrybbadd

leggo wrote: »

Didn't he nearly paralyse Jamie Noble with it?

Running powebombs = never a good idea. D'Lo ended Droz's career with one and Rollins ended Sting's career too.

I think the Nobel thing was a straight up powerbomb on the outside, used as an angle to retire Jamie.

That was straight up scary, Noble's selling was masterful