Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....

Itssoeasy

This is the WWF tag titles most of us would remember. Now that's a tag title. I mean the ones they have now are cat altogether.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Just a few thoughts on Bobby Heenan.

Could you get a more quick witted and sharp guy on com? Looking back on WWF and WCW PPVs on the Network I always love a show when the Brain is on. He's just naturally funny, there was nobody feeding him lines.

For instance his partnerships with Gorilla Monsoon and with Schiavone and Dusty for a time at WCW. He used to rip the absolute piss out of Dusty when he'd go off on inane tangents.

My first introduction to him was commentating on Nitro when I first discovered wrestling back in 96. Cartoon Network on a Friday at 9pm instead of showing TNT Movie Classics would air a taped version of Nitro in Europe. Even at that young naive age I always loved the funny guy on commentary who supported the bad guys.

I feel so sorry for him today. He beat throat cancer but has been massively debilitated from botched surgeries and infections.

It's the saddest thing of all because his illness has taken away his greatest asset. His brilliant ability to verbally express himself in an expert form.

Reebrock

When Heenan was motivated, he was brilliant. His last few years in WCW were sad, he had fallen so far.

Itssoeasy

Reebrock wrote: »

When Heenan was motivated, he was brilliant. His last few years in WCW were sad, he had fallen so far.

Well could you blame him for not being pissed off ? I mean Tony Schiavone who I think was very good just seemed to not care by the end. Just from listening to Tony it seems the atmosphere was terrible towards the end.

But yes Bobby heenan is one of the best colour commentators ever in pro wrestling and the greatest manager ever.

Andersonisgod

leggo wrote: »

I'd say the NXT Tag Titles have more prestige than Raw or SmackDown. The SmackDown belts have been booked more sensibly since they were introduced, but didn't get a Mania match whereas Raw did, and big teams seem to be going to Raw. So same as usual: the SmackDown belts are better but Raw gets preferential treatment.

In NJPW, the tag belts are the one downside of the promotion. For a guy who spent his career as a tag specialist, Gedo seems shockingly lost when booking for those divisions (the NEVER 6-man belts are a joke, I can't even tell you who holds them right now).

Oddly, the tag division is probably the one area TNA/GFW outshines both WWE and NJPW. Such a shame as there are super talented teams out there today.

I don't think Gedo is lost, he just doesn't value the tag division at all. Traditionally it's a great stop gap for top guys to do something while they are outside of the title picture but Gedo's formula is one tag team, usually gaijin, battling outsider teams for months on end with lots of hot potatoing.

leggo

Yeah, regardless of whatever we speculate his motivations are, it's just strange that a tag specialist wrestler doesn't do much with the tag division as a booker, especially when they even have a tournament based around it and some of the best tag-teams on the planet on their roster.

Agent Coulson

I'd love to see Rusev over on RAW right in the mix with Brock, Joe & Strowman instead of being jobbed out to Cena every couple of months.

Snakeweasel

Agent Coulson wrote: »

I'd love to see Rusev over on RAW right in the mix with Brock, Joe & Strowman instead of being jobbed out to Cena every couple of months.

I was really looking forward to his comeback on Smackdown, thought that the time away would allow him to come back fresh and be built up as the monster he should be packaged as.

gerrybbadd

I like to write, and often write content for online SEO purposes.

I've always wanted to write a book or novel, and am seriously thinking of writing a piece of fiction, from a wrestler's point of few. The main character in my outline will be homosexual, but very much in the closet. I'd be weaving in threads of truth too, from road stories widely told from the business.

How does this sound?

leggo

gerrybbadd wrote: »

I like to write, and often write content for online SEO purposes.

I've always wanted to write a book or novel, and am seriously thinking of writing a piece of fiction, from a wrestler's point of few. The main character in my outline will be homosexual, but very much in the closet. I'd be weaving in threads of truth too, from road stories widely told from the business.

How does this sound?

Could be good, but avoid stereotypes like him liking to roll around with sweaty, half-naked men. That's how you offend literally everyone who could have an interest in reading the book. Also, if you want to do something new and incisive, picking an angle like someone being in the closet can be tricky because you're then tied to political correctness and not offending a large number of people. Off the bat you almost have to write him as a hero (just so it's not offensive) and that's a bit tired already. For a bit of narrative structure, the temptation would be there to write the wrestling world as a bit of an antagonist, i.e. not accepting of gay people, thus you have a struggle and something to overcome. And that's just not accurate from my experience. Being gay in wrestling is like being gay in Hollywood, it's really not a big deal to 90% of the industry. (Though, to be fair, a gay person in wrestling could tell you something completely different, it's just what I've seen myself)

But, if you feel like you've got a story to tell, the best thing is to always get a first draft on paper then see what you've got from there. Those would just be the tropes I'd look to avoid.

gerrybbadd

Thanks Leggo.

Ya, i'm gonna avoid the oily men stereotypes. In fact, my character isn't attracted to muscle bound men. He's someone who came up in the industry, 3rd Generation, with his uncles and father being wrestlers also. His Uncle would have been a World champ, his father less successful, and bitter as a result.

PTH2009

These Chris Jericho returns are getting a little bit tiring at this stage

Only so many times he can written off and then come back good as new

There's rumours he will be back til October and then return again around Rumble time 2018

Agent Coulson

Jericho back for a big 4 PPV payday


He phoned it in for a few years there but the last few returns he has been on top form long may that continue I'd like to see him move away from Owens now though.

DM_7

PTH2009 wrote: »

These Chris Jericho returns are getting a little bit tiring at this stage

Only so many times he can written off and then come back good as new

There's rumours he will be back til October and then return again around Rumble time 2018

Meanwhile, fans are calling for people to get more time off......

Lithium93_

PTH2009 wrote: »

These Chris Jericho returns are getting a little bit tiring at this stage

Only so many times he can written off and then come back good as new

There's rumours he will be back til October and then return again around Rumble time 2018

DM_7 wrote: »

Meanwhile, fans are calling for people to get more time off......

Just can't please everybody, no matter how hard they try. Hell I'm glad Jericho's back at least temporarily.

That isn't a dig at anyone, just an observation.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Watched a Devon Nicholson shoot recently of the lately departed Smith Hart ( shoot was filmed in 2014). The eldest son of the Hart family.

In relation to Bret and Montreal, Smith said that Stu told him:

"The Promoter signs the cheques, and if the Promoter wants you to put your crippled grandmother over in two straight Falls you should say Yes Sir."

That sounds like something an old school promoter like Stu Hart would say.

Interesting to note that not all the family might have been behind Bret at the time.

jaykhunter

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

"The Promoter signs the cheques, and if the Promoter wants you to put your crippled grandmother over in two straight Falls you should say Yes Sir."

I agree with this, wrestlers are getting paid to play a character on someone else's event/TV show. Sometimes the promoter doesn't do what's best for business, but it is his business. That said, what makes the most money would likely be a compromise between the two. As fans, it's our 'job' to tell the promoter who's worth their time & money.

Itssoeasy

jaykhunter wrote: »

I agree with this, wrestlers are getting paid to play a character on someone else's event/TV show. Sometimes the promoter doesn't do what's best for business, but it is his business. That said, what makes the most money would likely be a compromise between the two. As fans, it's our 'job' to tell the promoter who's worth their time & money.

And it's an old school thing in wrestling, that if you're leaving the company/territory you dropped any championships you had on way out. I've come around to Vinces point of view more over the years.

leggo

jaykhunter wrote: »

I agree with this, wrestlers are getting paid to play a character on someone else's event/TV show. Sometimes the promoter doesn't do what's best for business, but it is his business. That said, what makes the most money would likely be a compromise between the two. As fans, it's our 'job' to tell the promoter who's worth their time & money.

In terms of a wrestling promotion/fan relationship, it's a straight up transaction. Fans are there to pay money or not pay money and that's it, we have no further duty. It's like saying it's our 'job' to keep Tesco honest with our wallet. We don't think of it that way and the only reason we do in wrestling is because some companies have done marketing around making the fans a central part (in a short-term effort to try and inspire loyalty and, thus, repeat business) which has kinda backfired now fans actually think they're a part of the show.

Whenever I hear wrestling promotions, even WWE with their 'WWE Universe' stuff, play this chord I want to scream "Bull****!" at the television because it's simply not something businesses factor in in their day-to-day operations. And, truthfully, fans shouldn't set the agenda either and it's a sign of a weak company that allows them to. I watch shows like Game of Thrones, The Sopranos etc because I know that whatever I think of that could happen, the writers are going to come up with better to keep me hooked. There's no reason wrestling should be different. They should be setting the agenda and we should be following with our wallets. If we can write the show for them, why should we pay them our money?

And now the problem is that wrestling has empowered fans so much that they expect to be part of the show, and react aggressively when they feel they're not being listened to. It's a tough situation and, aside from really creative, compelling booking (which...is originality even possible anymore with fans having seen so much now?), I'm not sure how you get out of.

Pentecost

Itssoeasy wrote: »

And it's an old school thing in wrestling, that if you're leaving the company/territory you dropped any championships you had on way out. I've come around to Vinces point of view more over the years.

Me too. Now pretty much in the 'Bret screwed Bret' camp.

jaykhunter

Itssoeasy wrote: »

And it's an old school thing in wrestling, that if you're leaving the company/territory you dropped any championships you had on way out.

Absolutely, I agree with that, Bret should've agreed to Vince's demand because he's getting paid by WWF. I have no doubt that traditionalist Bret would do such (and gave multiple outs to Vince before and after S'Series, he sat at home for a few weeks instead) and not show up in WCW with the belt. The big problem is Wrestling with Shadows literally has audio of Vince agreeing to a different finish before the match. That's scumbag stuff. Bret even suggests a screwjob and Vince shoots it down.

connemara man

leggo wrote: »

In terms of a wrestling promotion/fan relationship, it's a straight up transaction. Fans are there to pay money or not pay money and that's it, we have no further duty. It's like saying it's our 'job' to keep Tesco honest with our wallet. We don't think of it that way and the only reason we do in wrestling is because some companies have done marketing around making the fans a central part (in a short-term effort to try and inspire loyalty and, thus, repeat business) which has kinda backfired now fans actually think they're a part of the show.

Whenever I hear wrestling promotions, even WWE with their 'WWE Universe' stuff, play this chord I want to scream "Bull****!" at the television because it's simply not something businesses factor in in their day-to-day operations. And, truthfully, fans shouldn't set the agenda either and it's a sign of a weak company that allows them to. I watch shows like Game of Thrones, The Sopranos etc because I know that whatever I think of that could happen, the writers are going to come up with better to keep me hooked. There's no reason wrestling should be different. They should be setting the agenda and we should be following with our wallets. If we can write the show for them, why should we pay them our money?

And now the problem is that wrestling has empowered fans so much that they expect to be part of the show, and react aggressively when they feel they're not being listened to. It's a tough situation and, aside from really creative, compelling booking (which...is originality even possible anymore with fans having seen so much now?), I'm not sure how you get out of.

You can't compare a TV show like the sopranos or even fair city and its story telling with something like wrestling though. They have the advantage of months of script writing, pre production, and post production.

Wrestling is interactive theater for want of a better term. Live reactions to who is in stage and what they are doing. If the story doesn't get the fans involved from a vocal point of view merchandise doesn't get sold. As someone who watches on TV if a crowd is dead I have less involvement in the segment. And I'm more likely to change the channel or skip the segment the next day.

The audience is key in setting the atmosphere of each episode so they need to be heard especially in WWE where there are rolling storylines. Whereas the Indies I'd assume would be more week to week so it's a different kettle of fish

leggo

connemara man wrote: »

You can't compare a TV show like the sopranos or even fair city and its story telling with something like wrestling though. They have the advantage of months of script writing, pre production, and post production.

Wrestling is interactive theater for want of a better term. Live reactions to who is in stage and what they are doing. If the story doesn't get the fans involved from a vocal point of view merchandise doesn't get sold. As someone who watches on TV if a crowd is dead I have less involvement in the segment. And I'm more likely to change the channel or skip the segment the next day.

The audience is key in setting the atmosphere of each episode so they need to be heard especially in WWE where there are rolling storylines. Whereas the Indies I'd assume would be more week to week so it's a different kettle of fish

That's so, but who is supposed to be working who? The wrestlers in the ring are there to put on a performance and get the response the audience wants. They're the action that causes a reaction. It shouldn't work where the audience act and the wrestlers react, again in that case why are the fans paying for the performance that they're writing?

Yet this is the way we are because of short-term marketing plans that have now led fans to believe they have a 'job' in the show. We don't. We're there to be the audience and pay for a performance, to be taken on a journey and told a story.

Put it this way: the theatre is also a live performance for an audience that can be interactive if needed, but you don't see fans changing the script there do you?

I don't blame fans for this btw. They believe this because they've bought into that bad marketing, yet now we are where we are.

connemara man

leggo wrote: »

That's so, but who is supposed to be working who? The wrestlers in the ring are there to put on a performance and get the response the audience wants. They're the action that causes a reaction. It shouldn't work where the audience act and the wrestlers react, again in that case why are the fans paying for the performance that they're writing?

Yet this is the way we are because of short-term marketing plans that have now led fans to believe they have a 'job' in the show. We don't. We're there to be the audience and pay for a performance, to be taken on a journey and told a story.

Put it this way: the theatre is also a live performance for an audience that can be interactive if needed, but you don't see fans changing the script there do you?

I don't blame fans for this btw. They believe this because they've bought into that bad marketing, yet now we are where we are.

The in ring action should get the reaction from the crowd but if the crowd aren't reacting the writing needs to be looked at. And if the crowd get behind a wrestler or a heel gets turned on the writing should react to that. Maybe not immediately but eventually.

If I go to Macbeth tomorrow they want to evoke an emotional response in me, so I tell people that it's worth going to see afterwards. In wrestling they are trying to straddle the line between the reaction of a live sports event and theater. That immediacy and that sense of buy in, support this guy vs this other guy, (which makes you more inclined to buy a t shirt or headband- that Macbeth doesn't want) and then the go tell your friends aspect of theater. This person is good he's good at this etc...

leggo

Exactly, but in Macbeth you root for the protragonist and hate the antagonist. You don't tell Shakespeare who is who. The fans should feel empowered and like they're pulling the strings (e.g. Believing that cheering Hulk Hogan inspires him to Hulk Up and rise from the dead), but that's where the nature of 'the work' comes in, we're being coerced into going along with a story that was pre-written hours/days/months ago.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going full Cornette and harkening back to a day that's come and gone. But I'm saying that fans feeling empowered and like they're genuinely in control, to the point that they actually do influence decisions, is a sign of weak/lazy booking and marketing and it's caused wrestling to evolve into a confusing place where the people paying are also, indirectly, the people writing the show. That's not evolution, that's a colossal balls up from a theatric standpoint.

connemara man

leggo wrote: »

Exactly, but in Macbeth you root for the protragonist and hate the antagonist. You don't tell Shakespeare who is who. The fans should feel empowered and like they're pulling the strings (e.g. Believing that cheering Hulk Hogan inspires him to Hulk Up and rise from the dead), but that's where the nature of 'the work' comes in, we're being coerced into going along with a story that was pre-written hours/days/months ago.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going full Cornette and harkening back to a day that's come and gone. But I'm saying that fans feeling empowered and like they're genuinely in control, to the point that they actually do influence decisions, is a sign of weak/lazy booking and marketing and it's caused wrestling to evolve into a confusing place where the people paying are also, indirectly, the people writing the show. That's not evolution, that's a colossal balls up from a theatric standpoint.

But Macbeth was written in such a way and with so much time put into it that Shakespeare could write the nuanced language that as an audience member you are like yup ok got it, and that you know the story will play out in that hour and a half all wrapped up nicely with a bow. And it's in such a setting that they don't want the same type of initial feedback as a wrestling segment does. They don't want a cheer at the point Macbeth gets his comeuppance. They want the round of applause with the curtains.

Wrestling is trying to be 2 things sports and entertainment. The sports element requires audience input ( how many coaches have been sacked because of fan revolt as an example)

I agree with the shoddy marketing and booking. At the moment 50/50 booking is killing WWE they are afraid to make a big star incase they pull a Brock order a Rock and head of. So WWE is now the thing they push. (I know people might not be a fan but whatculture wrestling have a good video on this) on smackdown alone there are three evil foreigner storylines at the same time. It's lazy as hel

leggo

You could actually make the opposite argument with sports though. I mean, it's a live spectacle performed in front of people, sure, but how much do fans actually influence it? I was reading an article not too long ago about the massive decline of home influence across the board with sports due to TV and globalisation. There's still some influence but ultimately it's negligible among highly-paid professional athletes who are there to do a duty. And that's the beautiful thing about sports: it's legitimate competitive nature gives not one single **** how you feel or what you want, anything can happen. You can spend all year getting ready for an event and getting excited, then on the day be left completely elated or cold. That's why we like competitive sports.

Again, we're the ones following the narrative, not the other way around. Liverpool fans can spend all day on Twitter fixing their club and bemoaning what's gone wrong since the 80's, but it's not going to change the fact that they're essentially a B-level club now. The real changes are made at an owner/management/player personnel level and all fans can do is watch and react. We enjoy being in that submissive position in entertainment, and we also enjoy feeling like our voice matters (when ultimately it doesn't) and I think we enjoy that conflict secretly. I think we enjoy complaining about bad referee decisions and the like, the emotional rollercoaster that comes with feeling wronged and denied, then later feeling like that wrong was put right. I think if you took that away from us we'd lose interest despite the fact that we get so upset in the moment. So when we get what we think we want...turns out we don't want it anymore.

Look at WWE now: they sign all of our indie darlings and give us a voice and we slate them for it. Then they try go back and force people like Roman Reigns down our throats and we slate them again, but keep watching. Look at the indies who do fan service like there's no tomorrow: we say we love it to seem trendy and different, but when one gets big enough (TNA/ROH etc), we turn on them and we certainly don't support anyone nearly enough to make a dent on WWE. We'll spend all year moaning about WWE and saying we love alternatives, but when it comes time to drop thousands on going to an event, do we go to WrestleMania or Wrestle Kingdom?

We've no idea what we want, in truth, and it's not our job to figure that out. So the whole scene is a bit all over the place as a result because there's nobody at the forefront leading the way and hooking us by telling us what we want unapologetically.

PTH2009

Rey Mysterio back to WWE a good move or has his time past ???

He would fit into the cruiserweight division, he's still better than the current lucha type guys like Kalisto, Sin Cara and he will sell a lot of merch

If WWE decide too do a lucha tournament who could come in a commentary/mentor role

Itssoeasy

PTH2009 wrote: »

Rey Mysterio back to WWE a good move or has his time past ???

He would fit into the cruiserweight division, he's still better than the current lucha type guys like Kalisto, Sin Cara and he will sell a lot of merch

If WWE decide too do a lucha tournament who could come in a commentary/mentor role

What's Rey like physically at this point in time ? Is he able to go ? I think I heard his knees are in bad shape. If he's in good shape and can still go then why not but if he's breaking down then no for.

Itssoeasy

The WWF rule book was mentioned in the past but here is a picture of the NWA rules from 1974. I find this stuff fascinating.