Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....

LeeJM

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Angle was cleared in a day is it ? Wouldn't he have to pass a medical before he signed ?

Well no he wouldnt have had to pass a medical to be an on screen non wrestling character.

leggo

Vince had the idea for Angle to come back on the Thursday (when it was confirmed Reigns was out), he received a medical the Friday morning and was announced Friday night. Feel free to Google.

I'm at home at the laptop now and had a think about this earlier on to expand.

I think a lot of cognitive dissonance is going on with all of us right now. We want to see Angle and Bryan do what we love them doing, but at the same time as people who like and admire them, want them to be happy and healthy too. Those two things don't always marry, so the easiest way to process it is defer to the 'official' story, i.e. Angle was cleared and Bryan was not. That way we can just enjoy Angle and make our peace with Bryan not being able to wrestle. We don't need to think about the consequences because it seems like someone else is taking care of that on our behalf. But the truth isn't always convenient and this situation in particular is complex and messy.

First off: what is being 'cleared'? In this instance, it refers to getting a doctor to assume liability by consulting with talent and stating that they're happy to proceed. This takes liability off WWE, a publicly traded company who fiscally can't afford to take risks. But we don't know the extent it goes through with each individual talent and case. They'd have a standard medical everyone they sign would have to pass, but we don't know the particulars of it and particularly how that would vary from say an NXT signing they've never heard of and a recovering addict like Angle with a history of neck/concussion issues, there are so many variables. It'd take months to do a full body check on someone, a lot of it, if there's no immediately pressing issues, comes down to basic testing and taking talent on their word (with the caveat being that if they lie you can release them and legally take action if you decided to be a dick, same as when you fill out a form asking about previous medical issues when you're starting a regular job).

No doctor is/was stopping Angle or Bryan from wrestling, Vince is. This is an important distinction to make with the above point in mind. Vince is ultimately responsible for every decision made and when you consider that the NFL have to pay out over $1billion in settlements to former players, it's the kind of thing that could put a test to his controlling interest in the company if he got it wrong. So, putting the two points together, if he wanted someone to come back he could get 15 medical opinions, have one agree to 'clear' said talent and choose to listen to that because he sees the risk as worth the reward on balance. On the flip side, if he doesn't see it, they could have all but one doctor clear a talent and he could choose to listen to that one doctor. The latter is the crux of the matter with Bryan right now.

Why the hesitation if so many doctors are clearing Bryan? It's almost definitely not personal, almost definitely not out of personal concern and almost definitely because he just dodged one lawsuit and is facing something completely unknown. That's the aspect that is missing from Meltzer's reporting and, as such, going over the heads of a lot of fans not following the CTE story elsewhere: there's no way to detect or treat it yet while the participant is alive, it's only detectable via an autopsy as it stands. It's a degenerative brain disease that eventually ruins the life of those who suffer with it, with no known cure. Severe headaches, constant disorientation, memory loss, early onset dementia (which is why most experts believe Benoit did what he did), the list goes on and yes, your brain can look totally fine with the current technology we have. In the NFL you have to retire after seven concussions, it's mandatory, Bryan has had over double that already in his career. Bryan also has a history of irresponsible decision-making in this regard. He was told to tone his style down when he came back after Mania 30 and did he? Nope. It's tough to tell how legitimate it was, but Total Divas also featured a disagreement between Brie and Bryan where he was refusing the recommended medical treatment. I love Bryan too, but his decision-making on this has been suspect at best and he may need to be protected from himself. He can put all the logic to it he wants and say doctors think he's in great shape, but the sad fact is that no doctor on the planet can say if he has CTE or not and he could be a walking Benoit already with the damage sustained in his career.

So why even consider allowing him to wrestle again? Vince wouldn't if not for the threat of NJPW/ROH, who he's now treating as a legitimate threat (and rightfully so with NJPW breaking into the US, ROH looking at 10,000 seaters, Bullet Club merch on the high street and some his own talent already seeing them as the preferable option to work with). All of that ramps right up if Bryan signs for them and he's had bad experiences of main eventers walking and helping another company explode, like Brock being a huge contributor into making UFC a $4billion company (WWE likely wouldn't sell for that much). Also, he could tell himself that if Bryan is determined to wrestle either way, then he's actually being more human in allowing him to do so in a limited, controlled environment with high medical standards like WWE, that a competitor with lesser resources and more short-term ambition simply wouldn't have. And, if he thought that, would it be wrong?

So to reduce is to "X is cleared/Y is not" isn't even nearly taking all of the variables into account. It's a hugely complex issue with no easy answer beyond Bryan accepting his lot, which isn't happening. And it has the potential to shake the entire industry, one way, the other, or both ways.

DM_7

A day? This is the best I could find.

Triple H

http://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2017/1117/634191/triple-h-on-if-he-wants-a-match-with-kurt-angle/

I think it's awesome that Kurt's back in the ring (and) when Kurt first came back to the company we said let's take it one step at a time and see where things go. It's funny that we had just started the process of taking Kurt through the medical and making sure he was healthy and all those things.”

"Coincidentally, it ended up being completely a coincidence that Kurt and I had a conversation that started that process and then all of a sudden there was this opportunity and a need, and his results had just come in, so it just was a great coincidence in some ways."

ERG89

Angle to me looks like a guy really struggling to go without painkillers/meds. Obviously he absolutely should not take them but he clearly looks physically done & sorta frail now when he's clean.
His comeback is far from an enjoyable one. It's genuinely sad to see him now when he was a top class talent (despite his personal demons) even into his TNA run.
As for CTE's nobody really knows much about them as they are only now making very slow breakthroughs on diagnosing living people with the condition. Looking at Alan Shearers doc on dementia many older athletes seem to be in denial & without regrets of their past with regards head trauma.
Although if it becomes easier to diagnose on the living wrestling could be a sport that will be heavily in the spotlight.

leggo

DM_7 wrote: »

"Coincidentally, it ended up being completely a coincidence that Kurt and I had a conversation that started that process and then all of a sudden there was this opportunity and a need, and his results had just come in, so it just was a great coincidence in some ways."

The Triple H drinking game: take a shot every time he says the word 'coincidence' while obviously bull****ting. :pac:

Agent Coulson

I predict the ending to WM 34 right now will be Roman standing tall with three belts held high after besting Brock.



He will be the WWE Universal Championship & WWE IC Champion & with Freebird Rules he will hold the WWE Raw Tag Team Championship with The Shield.

PTH2009

Agent Coulson wrote: »

I predict the ending to WM 34 right now will be Roman standing tall with three belts held high after besting Brock.



He will be the WWE Universal Championship & WWE IC Champion & with Freebird Rules he will hold the WWE Raw Tag Team Championship with The Shield.

didn't they do that before but with only one title ???

seriously he beat the game and closed out mania and that was the supposed start of the reigns era ???. he beat the ****ing Undertaker at mania ???

****ing hell can they just stop with this guy. I'm expecting him to win the rumble too

Riddle101

Agent Coulson wrote: »

I predict the ending to WM 34 right now will be Roman standing tall with three belts held high after besting Brock.



He will be the WWE Universal Championship & WWE IC Champion & with Freebird Rules he will hold the WWE Raw Tag Team Championship with The Shield.

Haha, the IWC will be livid if that happens. Another accomplishment handed to Reigns. I don't think they will do it though. There's no need for a freebird rule if Reigns held two belts.

Loughc

Agent Coulson wrote: »

I predict the ending to WM 34 right now will be Roman standing tall with three belts held high after besting Brock.



He will be the WWE Universal Championship & WWE IC Champion & with Freebird Rules he will hold the WWE Raw Tag Team Championship with The Shield.

I don't think you'll be far off. I think they will build Mania as a Champion Vs. Champion. With your favourite neighbourhood Reigns, standing strong with both belts.

Angron

Loughc wrote: »

I don't think you'll be far off. I think they will build Mania as a Champion Vs. Champion. With your favourite neighbourhood Reigns, standing strong with both belts.

Luther Reigns is coming back? :pac:

sky88

4 wrestlemania main events in a row is the record isnt it? i think a few have done 3 have been done which is crazy considering the amount of his career has been

hell only be one behind cena and rock in total whos had 5

leggo

Hogan...
5: Savage
6. Warrior
7. Slaughter
8. Sid

Then 9 is open for debate.

sky88

leggo wrote: »

Hogan...
5: Savage
6. Warrior
7. Slaughter
8. Sid

Then 9 is open for debate.

didn't realize 8 against sid the closing match i always thought it was flair savage

gerrybbadd

sky88 wrote: »

didn't realize 8 against sid the closing match i always thought it was flair savage

Nope, it was on just before.

Always remember Warrior running in to safe the day at the end

leggo

What I'd be interested in, actually, is retconning Mania main events adjusting for what should've been the main event and we remember as such (e.g. Hogan/Rock instead of Triple H/Jericho at 18) and then seeing who has the best record at the top. Rock would be up there with four from 15-18 (and you could argue his match with SCSA is more relevant than Brock/Angle at 19).

Necro

leggo wrote: »

What I'd be interested in, actually, is retconning Mania main events adjusting for what should've been the main event and we remember as such (e.g. Hogan/Rock instead of Triple H/Jericho at 18) and then seeing who has the best record at the top. Rock would be up there with four from 15-18 (and you could argue his match with SCSA is more relevant than Brock/Angle at 19).

If you're doing that then the invisible man winning the title at WM 20 after a singles match between HHH and HBK may have to drop down the card given it's been entirely stricken from our minds :pac::pac::pac::pac:

sky88

leggo wrote: »

What I'd be interested in, actually, is retconning Mania main events adjusting for what should've been the main event and we remember as such (e.g. Hogan/Rock instead of Triple H/Jericho at 18) and then seeing who has the best record at the top. Rock would be up there with four from 15-18 (and you could argue his match with SCSA is more relevant than Brock/Angle at 19).

that really would, taker probaley takes the top spot there although hed lose one at 24 to flair/hbk. Then you get the harder manias like 30 which would be hard to pick from the streak ending or bryan winning

leggo

Necrominus wrote: »

If you're doing that then the invisible man winning the title at WM 20 after a singles match between HHH and HBK may have to drop down the card given it's been entirely stricken from our minds :pac::pac::pac::pac:

The funny thing is that match, in polls I've done on multiple occasions in the years since, constantly gets voted as one of the best Mania matches of all-time but NEVER gets anyone's number one pick. But it's in nearly everyone's top 10.

Twice, I think, I've done that and it's won outright on balance.

diusmr8a504cvk

Did Shawn Michaels ever comment on Ric Flair coming out of retirement after their Wrestlemania match?

Angron

sky88 wrote: »

that really would, taker probaley takes the top spot there although hed lose one at 24 to flair/hbk. Then you get the harder manias like 30 which would be hard to pick from the streak ending or bryan winning

I don't think I'd count 24 as losing one myself. Maybe it's just because Ric not actually retiring retroactively devalued that match for me.

sky88

Angron wrote: »

I don't think I'd count 24 as losing one myself. Maybe it's just because Ric not actually retiring retroactively devalued that match for me.

Ive chosen to forget ric after mania 24.

Angron

sky88 wrote: »

Ive chosen to forget ric after mania 24.

Not unreasonable really.

leggo

Taker would almost be a category unto himself, the Manias he actually main evented are almost all letdowns (except for 24, mind, which was a phenomenal match but I get your point on HBK/Flair) but then he stole the show and is the memorable part of so many he didn't main event: add 25, 27, 28 and 29 to that list! (His Triple H HIAC was incredible and outshone Cena/Rock 1, while Cena/Rock 2 was awful and Taker/Punk will live on from that one)

In fact, just thinking there when you take 24 and 26 into account that's 6 consecutive 'adjusted' main events with an arguable 7th at 30. That's some record!

Necro

Funnily enough, while I loved HBK/Taker 1, it's not my favorite mania match.

I'm torn between HBK VS Angle and HBK VS Jericho, always flip flopping on the two.

Have a real soft spot for TLC at X7 as well.

chatticusfinch

TLC 2 at X7 was probably the height of sheer spectacle and entertainment at Wrestlemania, the best tag teams of the era crafting an absolute stone cold classic.

Bret Austin was amazing, Taker Shawn 1 (although I do love 2 as well), Ric Shawn was class, Owen v Bret.

It's a hard pick.

Sirsok

JBL v Finlay wrestlemania 24 Belfast Brawl.......

Forget your steamboat savage, Bret Austin, taker HBK

BurnUp78

Currently watching 2002 on the network and noticed an out of shape fit finlay in some kind of security role.. Googled him and found out he didn't debut in WWE until the age of 47!!

leggo

Mania 24 as a whole is a fantastic PPV. Flair/Shawn, one of the best MITB matches, Taker/Edge, Mayweather/Big Show which was infinitely better than it had any right to be, the aforementioned JBL/Finlay (I know it was probably said in jest but it is a great opener)...an all-timer.

Omackeral

Love Mania 24. Feel it's very underrated. In my opinion it slots right in behind X7 and Mania 19. WM 19 was stacked btw

LeeJM

WM 19 was ridiculously stacked. Austin/Rock, Lesnar/Angle, Mysterio/Hardy, Hogan/McMahon, HHH/Booker, HBK/Y2J. Phenomenal line up in retrospect with HBK just at the start of his full time comeback, first ever Lesnar vs Angle match. Hollywood Rock was at his peak and even though it wasnt announced I think everyone knew Austins full time in ring career was winding down so Rock vs Austin one last time was special. Hogan vs McMahon was built masterfully. HHH Booker is remembered badly due to Booker not winning but again it was built perfectly. Also that night we got the Goldberg vignette and it was the first outdoor Mania since WM9.