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Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....
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Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »I haven't tried to minimise their success for if they had no success then there would be no issue because there would be nothing to discuss. What I did take issue with is your statement that because they are able to reach out to a niche audience that this is evidence that it is "what the majority of people want". The numbers show what the majority of wrestling fans want to watch is WWE.
Yep. Having thought about it I suspect they use this excuse because there is no other form of entertainment spectacle where making the whole artform look bad is excused.
Hell, if I went to see Twink performing Punch and Judy at a church charity gig I would still expect her to take her performance seriously. And I certainly wouldn't feel better about an intelligence-insulting display by being told she's made a load of dosh from it!
Dude, you're so unnecessarily bitchy and passive-aggressive here. You're using the word niche as a stick to beat them with, yet in your other example you're saying that Simon Cowell and the X Factor is ruining music to equivocate you're examples...that's about as mainstream as it gets! Which matters? The art or the platform they're on? You can't have both.
Nvm the fact that, in Ireland alone, they've been headline acts twice this year alone for shows that sold out to over 2,000 people. In two weeks, they're featured performers on a show that will sell over 30,000 tickets. They're on national TV in multiple continents. They've been profiled in Rolling Stone. This is not what the word niche means. A wrestling YouTube channel has a niche audience. My parties and podcast have a niche audience. When you're world famous, selling out stadium shows regularly, and beefing on Twitter with the Light-Heavyweight Champion of a $4billion company...you've shaken the niche tag. They're not in WWE, so what? I bet Cedric Alexander or the Authors of Pain would trade bank accounts with them in an instant. The New Day are probably the only tag-team in the entire WWE who are richer than them. They're not sorry they're not in WWE, they've rejected contract offers multiple times.
So are they ruining wrestling? Again...to you, maybe. But that's your opinion and you're allowed it. You can't substantiate that with facts. Their act has been a feature part of making wrestling outside of WWE way more popular than it ever has been in this country, in Japan and in America. When people are buying tickets to see you, when you are creating fans that weren't fans before, when you are selling merch faster than you can have it made...one thing that is absolutely not is causing damage. You don't like it? That's allowed, nobody is forcing you to, boo-hoo, I'll light a candle for you. But own that and stop being such a combination of arrogant and needy that, if you don't like something, you feel like it validates saying that wrestling is ruined. It's not. It's palpably better than it ever was for a lot of people now than when a bunch of sweaty neckbeards pretended men punching each other in the face repeatedly and not bleeding was real. In case you didn't realise, an awful lot of the mainstream saw that as insulting people's intelligence.0 -
This feud is decent.0
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Is this legit?
https://i.imgur.com/HhC0C5c.gifv
I'm trying to see if he straightens his finger before the stamp but it looks legit to me. Nastiest thing I've seen in wrestling recently!0 -
Dude, you're so unnecessarily bitchy and passive-aggressive here. You're using the word niche as a stick to beat them with, yet in your other example you're saying that Simon Cowell and the X Factor is ruining music to equivocate you're examples...that's about as mainstream as it gets! Which matters? The art or the platform they're on? You can't have both.
Nvm the fact that, in Ireland alone, they've been headline acts twice this year alone for shows that sold out to over 2,000 people. In two weeks, they're featured performers on a show that will sell over 30,000 tickets. They're on national TV in multiple continents. They've been profiled in Rolling Stone. This is not what the word niche means. A wrestling YouTube channel has a niche audience. My parties and podcast have a niche audience. When you're world famous, selling out stadium shows regularly, and beefing on Twitter with the Light-Heavyweight Champion of a $4billion company...you've shaken the niche tag. They're not in WWE, so what? I bet Cedric Alexander or the Authors of Pain would trade bank accounts with them in an instant. The New Day are probably the only tag-team in the entire WWE who are richer than them. They're not sorry they're not in WWE, they've rejected contract offers multiple times.
So are they ruining wrestling? Again...to you, maybe. But that's your opinion and you're allowed it. You can't substantiate that with facts. Their act has been a feature part of making wrestling outside of WWE way more popular than it ever has been in this country, in Japan and in America. When people are buying tickets to see you, when you are creating fans that weren't fans before, when you are selling merch faster than you can have it made...one thing that is absolutely not is causing damage. You don't like it? That's allowed, nobody is forcing you to, boo-hoo, I'll light a candle for you. But own that and stop being such a combination of arrogant and needy that, if you don't like something, you feel like it validates saying that wrestling is ruined. It's not. It's palpably better than it ever was for a lot of people now than when a bunch of sweaty neckbeards pretended men punching each other in the face repeatedly and not bleeding was real. In case you didn't realise, an awful lot of the mainstream saw that as insulting people's intelligence.
On the contrary, I haven't been "bitchy" or passive aggressive despite plenty of thinly veiled insults thrown my way, including above. I have tried to be patient in the face of repeated straw men arguments and Gish Galloping on the part of yourself.
The original issue was several fans, myself included, agreeing with Cormier and other MMA fighters that the spot in question was trashy, i.e. taking issue with the artistic merit of it. You and others then tried to deflect attention away from this by pointing out the irrelevant tidbit that they happen to make money from what they do. As far as I can tell, not one person that criticised the spot mentioned anything about finances, or their ability to sell t-shirts; rather, this was something introduced to suffocate discussion on the perfectly valid criticism of the spot, and indeed what it means for the industry as a whole, when it paints wrestling in such a poor light. You have repeatedly kept saying that they made money from it. Over and over. It is irrelevant to the issue. That is why the reference to Cowell was made because plenty of people take issue with what he does artistically to music, regardless of the fact that he makes money from it. Making money from an endeavour is not an argument that it has artistic merit.
The point about them being "niche" was in response to your inaccurate assertion that:
"the fact that they are successful means that people are paying to see it, therefore it's what the majority of people want"
The statement in your second clause is total rubbish as I suspect you well know. Cody Rhodes is currently in the midst of trying to win a bet to see if he can get 10,000 fans to watch a show that will no doubt include his pals the Bucks on it. If what they do is "what the majority of people want", then they wouldn't need to make such a bet in the first place. Again, I suspect you know this.
There are fewer people watching wrestling now overall than ever before. What we have is a small but admittedly passionate niche fanbase that enjoys this type of entertainment and are willing to go to these spot monkey shows and applaud the phony gymnastic spots, invisible hand grenades, and whacky dance numbers in the midst of their chants of "fight forever" and "we are awesome". Good for them and good luck to them but they don't represent me, nor the majority of the wrestling audience, not to mention the overall general public audience.
You can gnash your teeth all you want and call me all the names under the sun that you want but I stand by my view that this is embarrassing garbage wrestling that will ultimately do long-lasting damage to the reputation of a business that I happen to enjoy. In my view it's not wrestling, nor is it even sports entertainment, it's spot monkey entertainment. People go to these shows not to see a simulated athletic contest between two people taking their craft seriously, but rather to see an obviously phony gymnastic show wherein you sit there and wait for a cue, i.e. spot, when you go crazy for the self-indulgent acrobats in the ring. As Dutch Mantel put it, "I liked the business better when the marks were in the front row."0 -
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J. Marston wrote: »Is this legit?
https://i.imgur.com/HhC0C5c.gifv
I'm trying to see if he straightens his finger before the stamp but it looks legit to me. Nastiest thing I've seen in wrestling recently!
If he did straighten it I didn't see it.0 -
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Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »On the contrary, I haven't been "bitchy" or passive aggressive despite plenty of thinly veiled insults thrown my way, including above. I have tried to be patient in the face of repeated straw men arguments and Gish Galloping on the part of yourself.
The original issue was several fans, myself included, agreeing with Cormier and other MMA fighters that the spot in question was trashy, i.e. taking issue with the artistic merit of it. You and others then tried to deflect attention away from this by pointing out the irrelevant tidbit that they happen to make money from what they do. As far as I can tell, not one person that criticised the spot mentioned anything about finances, or their ability to sell t-shirts; rather, this was something introduced to suffocate discussion on the perfectly valid criticism of the spot, and indeed what it means for the industry as a whole, when it paints wrestling in such a poor light. You have repeatedly kept saying that they made money from it. Over and over. It is irrelevant to the issue. That is why the reference to Cowell was made because plenty of people take issue with what he does artistically to music, regardless of the fact that he makes money from it. Making money from an endeavour is not an argument that it has artistic merit.
The point about them being "niche" was in response to your inaccurate assertion that:
"the fact that they are successful means that people are paying to see it, therefore it's what the majority of people want"
The statement in your second clause is total rubbish as I suspect you well know. Cody Rhodes is currently in the midst of trying to win a bet to see if he can get 10,000 fans to watch a show that will no doubt include his pals the Bucks on it. If what they do is "what the majority of people want", then they wouldn't need to make such a bet in the first place. Again, I suspect you know this.
There are fewer people watching wrestling now overall than ever before. What we have is a small but admittedly passionate niche fanbase that enjoys this type of entertainment and are willing to go to these spot monkey shows and applaud the phony gymnastic spots, invisible hand grenades, and whacky dance numbers in the midst of their chants of "fight forever" and "we are awesome". Good for them and good luck to them but they don't represent me, nor the majority of the wrestling audience, not to mention the overall general public audience.
You can gnash your teeth all you want and call me all the names under the sun that you want but I stand by my view that this is embarrassing garbage wrestling that will ultimately do long-lasting damage to the reputation of a business that I happen to enjoy. In my view it's not wrestling, nor is it even sports entertainment, it's spot monkey entertainment. People go to these shows not to see a simulated athletic contest between two people taking their craft seriously, but rather to see an obviously phony gymnastic show wherein you sit there and wait for a cue, i.e. spot, when you go crazy for the self-indulgent acrobats in the ring. As Dutch Mantel put it, "I liked the business better when the marks were in the front row."
Oh come on, you go on about strawmen arguments and then argue that the majority of the planet isn't watching wrestling? Come on, that's ridiculous! :pac:
I'm not calling you names, I'm saying you're being bitchy. I don't know you to call you names, this is a discussion about wrestling, don't take it so personally.
Dutch Mantell btw...the last company he had sway for, didn't they recently go backstage at NJPW (a promotion the Bucks work for) pretty much begging them to join in a partnership? And they balked in favour of sticking with Ring Of Honor, another promotion the Bucks are pivotal for. Mantell says one thing, but the company that he's a part of creative desperately wants to hang with the mizarks now...0 -
I can see both sides of the lads arguments here but seriously getting all precious and talking about artistic merit and "the craft" of the business is a bit rich. What got you into wrestling in the first place? If you wanna play the numbers game, the Attitude Era is when wrestling was at its most popular. What's that known for? Over the top characters, sexy women and risqué bits. DX crotch chopping, Austin cursing and denigrating his boss, a dead zombie fighting with his pyromaniac half brother. None of that is wrestling!
Malenko and Benoit were fine technicians. Ditto Jerry Lynn. Great craftsmen, if you like. They were never prolonged headline draws though and never the reason joe public bought a ticket.
Wrestling isn't wrestling.0 -
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There's nothing precious about wanting it to be taken seriously. Mentioning the Attitude Era proves the point because the beginning of the end for WCW was when they started treating it like it was a joke, akin to the stuff that the niche crowd like today. (Fingerpoke of doom, David Arquette wins the title, "edgy" shoots a la Russo and Hogan). It pandered to a niche audience while WWE had its best years in that period in 2000 and 2001 where the product was taken seriously. Have a look back at the Rock/Austin promo before Mania 17, arguably the peak point of the era, and the sit-down interview with J.R. The two biggest stars taking the issue absolutely seriously. "You will get the absolute best of The Rock, blood, sweat and tears", and "I need to beat you Rock. I need to beat you more than anything in the world."
That is wrestling. Rip Rogers gave a great summation of it recently:The art of pro wrestling ... feigning violence as a wrestling contest : using emotion , facials, body language , good vs evil , good selling and evil getting heat ... set up by angles & promos to get maximum mileage out of anything & everything ...0 -
Yeah but you realise that the one mainstream product out there that treats their fans like adults with stories about the importance of the title belt is NJPW, not WWE? And that the Young Bucks are one of the most popular acts there? And that it all makes sense when you watch it as a product?
It just feels like you're caught in a bygone era that doesn't exist or resonate anymore. We got close to 'My Way' with Cena/Rock and fans **** on it because today's audience is ironic, likes to make jokes on Twitter and needs to be connected with on a different level. They don't want to pretend that wrestling characters care about belts anymore, they see that as insulting their intelligence. They want to know the man behind the wrestler with winks and nods to the fact that wrestling is fake, then they want to understand why the man, not the character, wants to be champ. Then they can get where you wanna be. NJPW is the only product that is feeding people that.0 -
Brock Lesnar's title reign is taken very seriously and his feuds always evoke interest and are treated as important so that opening gambit is another wildly inaccurate assertion, but yes I'm aware the Young Bucks are in New Japan and are you aware that the Tokyo Dome hasn't sold out? Strange considering this is their version of Wrestlemania and supposedly they represent "what the majority of people want".
It just feels like you vastly overrate the significance of the niche stuff you like. The fact you just said fans sh*t on Rock vs Cena is a classic example: I believe that was the most successful Mania of all time. Just because die-hards don't like it doesn't indicate anything about the overall audience. Cena generally embodies that seeing as he is purposely not booked for the niche die-hards that will chant Cena sucks but the overall audience.
I remember there were several people a few weeks back saying Vince would be outraged that Jericho was going to New Japan, he'd be furious, etc. Really OTT reaction because as it turns out - and which I predicted at the time - Jericho had called Vince in advance to let him know because, in his own words, he's a WWE guy. And he admitted on the podcast with Meltzer and Alvarez that he wouldn't have gone to New Japan if he saw them as a legitimate competitor to WWE. Fans of this niche stuff vastly overrate its importance.
What the majority of wrestling fans want is a product that treats things seriously, hence why the Wyatt/Orton stuff, worms on the ring etc, was so poorly received. Hence why Brock vs Goldberg - presented as a serious contest improved business. Same deal why the 4-way with Reigns, Strowman, Joe and Lesnar improved business.
There is nothing intelligence-insulting about taking the profession seriously. The Omega/Jericho angle thus far is a classic old school rasslin' angle. No phony nonsense, imaginary hadoukens, flipping people with genitalia, but serious emotion.
The dismissive attitude towards trying to make a viewer suspend his or her disbelief is really baffling when compared to other entertainment forms. It would be seen as bizarre to defend an actor in a film or TV show not taking a role on screen or on stage seriously, or a ventriloquist not bothering to try and make it look like their lips aren't moving, or a musician not trying to present his or her act as legit.0 -
Originally posted by Mr Nice Guy
WWE had its best years in that period in 2000 and 2001 where the product was taken seriously.
Off the top of my head, WWE in 2000 had 80 year old Mae Young getting her tits out at the Royal Rumble in a bikini contest, Naked Mideon running around in a fanny pack and the Kat vs Terri Runnels at Wrestlemania in a cat fight.0 -
Attitude era was pop culture, it was not a majority serious fanbase, that is why it went away so quick.
WWE at its best came later imo, when it was Brock, Benoit, Angle, Eddie, Jeff Hardy and into Edge, Orton etc.
Sure they kept comedy going and outright silly stuff but that was to appeal to the casual fanbase.0 -
Attitude era was pop culture, it was not a majority serious fanbase, that is why it went away so quick.
My point was you can't use niche and numbers to detract from the Bucks act if you're gonna, in the same breath, say the Attitude Era is where things were best because the ratings were highest. They were highest but not because unreal 5 star matches! People enjoyed the silly stuff. They enjoyed seeing Vince McMahon p*ssing his pants during BANG 3:16. That's hardly a technical in-ring master class is it? What's it even got to do with actual wrestling?! I still loved it though. Pro Wrestling and WWE is a bit of everything. It's a 3 ring circus. You get serious stuff, you get daft stuff and you get things in between.
I reckon the people complainig about the drop kick spot have done more to highlight it and showcase it than if they just rolled their eyes and said nothing. I only heard about it from online complainers, otherwise I doubt I'd have seen it at all. Kinda like the Streisand effect in a way.0 -
My point was you can't use niche and numbers to detract from the Bucks act if you're gonna, in the same breath, say the Attitude Era is where things were best because the ratings were highest. They were highest but not because unreal 5 star matches! People enjoyed the silly stuff. They enjoyed seeing Vince McMahon p*ssing his pants during BANG 3:16. That's hardly a technical in-ring master class is it? What's it even got to do with actual wrestling?! I still loved it though. Pro Wrestling and WWE is a bit of everything. It's a 3 ring circus. You get serious stuff, you get daft stuff and you get things in between.
I reckon the people complainig about the drop kick spot have done more to highlight it and showcase it than if they just rolled their eyes and said nothing. I only heard about it from online complainers, otherwise I doubt I'd have seen it at all. Kinda like the Streisand effect in a way.
I get what you mean.
Bucks do appeal to a niche, the low percentage who remember the pants pissing but still follow wrestling and still want to see silly stuff. That is okay, they are right to do what gets them booked, makes them money.
It is not their job to protect wrestling, in the current gif and short video world their stuff is shared a lot. It is not always a good thing that silly **** they do in a match, specifically a match gets shared alot, as without context it does make the show look bad, it does make some people see ROH as poor. As I said before this is not Joe v Punk or Nigel and Danielson. That is on ROH most though, they could be promoting Riddle v Cobb or Lee but they are not going down that route.
I saw a lot of OTT fans not happy with the Bucks and Cody from the last show, they would be more long time fans of OTT who are much more interested in KOTN or Pete Dunne or Jordan. That may also suggest the bucks have a niche appeal.
In short fair ****s to the bucks but I get why they have a marmite influence.0 -
Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »Brock Lesnar's title reign is taken very seriously and his feuds always evoke interest and are treated as important so that opening gambit is another wildly inaccurate assertion, but yes I'm aware the Young Bucks are in New Japan and are you aware that the Tokyo Dome hasn't sold out? Strange considering this is their version of Wrestlemania and supposedly they represent "what the majority of people want".
It just feels like you vastly overrate the significance of the niche stuff you like. The fact you just said fans sh*t on Rock vs Cena is a classic example: I believe that was the most successful Mania of all time. Just because die-hards don't like it doesn't indicate anything about the overall audience. Cena generally embodies that seeing as he is purposely not booked for the niche die-hards that will chant Cena sucks but the overall audience.
I remember there were several people a few weeks back saying Vince would be outraged that Jericho was going to New Japan, he'd be furious, etc. Really OTT reaction because as it turns out - and which I predicted at the time - Jericho had called Vince in advance to let him know because, in his own words, he's a WWE guy. And he admitted on the podcast with Meltzer and Alvarez that he wouldn't have gone to New Japan if he saw them as a legitimate competitor to WWE. Fans of this niche stuff vastly overrate its importance.
What the majority of wrestling fans want is a product that treats things seriously, hence why the Wyatt/Orton stuff, worms on the ring etc, was so poorly received. Hence why Brock vs Goldberg - presented as a serious contest improved business. Same deal why the 4-way with Reigns, Strowman, Joe and Lesnar improved business.
There is nothing intelligence-insulting about taking the profession seriously. The Omega/Jericho angle thus far is a classic old school rasslin' angle. No phony nonsense, imaginary hadoukens, flipping people with genitalia, but serious emotion.
The dismissive attitude towards trying to make a viewer suspend his or her disbelief is really baffling when compared to other entertainment forms. It would be seen as bizarre to defend an actor in a film or TV show not taking a role on screen or on stage seriously, or a ventriloquist not bothering to try and make it look like their lips aren't moving, or a musician not trying to present his or her act as legit.
Right your argument is all over the place now: if Cena/Rock was that great, why not use that as an example instead of 'My Way'. Why bring up WWE from 2000/01 at all if modern wrestling achieves the same end that you're going for? Or do you know that that weakens your argument so you point elsewhere because the truth of it all doesn't matter and you're just arguing with any point I make now?
Then you're using Omega/Jericho as an example of a great angle. I know you don't know a lot about wrestling outside of WWE (I can be passive-aggressive too) but you also know that Omega and the Young Bucks form The Elite? And that Omega does all of this stuff with them? So on one hand you're going, "The Young Bucks are ruining wrestling!" Then saying "Look at this for a classic wrestling angle!" I hate to disappoint you...but the Young Bucks are probably going to be at ringside for that match. They've been a part of this great wrestling angle all along.
Your bar for 'niche' is non-existent. You just continually move it to mean 'not WWE'. You're a WWE mark, which you're allowed to be, but your Vince blinkers are totally skewing anyone being able to take you seriously. It doesn't matter if a show sells 30,000, if it's not sold out it's 'niche'. WrestleMania 7 (in fact many of the earlier WrestleManias), headlined by Hulk Hogan, didn't sell that many tickets, was that a niche event? Like define what niche is specifically, set parameters or stop using it. At this stage when you say it I just translate it in my brain as you saying, "Stuff I don't understand and that scares me!"
Also your example of WWE in 2000/01 as a model for wrestling being taken seriously is hilarious, considering you cite the likes of Cornette, Dutch Mantell and Rip Rodgers as sources. Do you even know that that's not their era and they actively HATED the product around then? Like then more than now was the period where old-timers spoke out about how wrestling had gone to the dogs. Sammartino and Billy Graham disowned it entirely.
Lastly, you don't understand meta and that's fine. But that's how audiences suspend their disbelief these days. In a world post-'pipe bomb' promo, you even had Triple H come out and call it the 'Reality Era' on Raw, meaning that the fourth wall would be broken regularly. None of this is niche btw. And the idea of breaking the fourth wall, artistically, is to acknowledge what fans know to be an act and therefore can't get into, then to work them again with that in mind. That's how you suspend disbelief in 2017. The toothpaste is out of the tube on wrestling being fake unfortunately, and people like Omega, Young Bucks etc are actively working to bring you back in by not insulting your intelligence. I find it way more intelligence-insulting, personally, getting punched repeatedly in the face, not bleeding and telling me this is 'real' than by treating it as an athletic performance used to tell stories and entertain (which is what wrestling actually is). The way they're doing it, it is real, because they're open and candid about it. You can't get your head around that and, again, that's fine.0 -
It appears the answer to the question "what will vince Russo and Jim Cornette agree on in wrestling ?" has been found. The young bucks is the answer.0
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Just seeing you mention Russo makes me wonder was it he or Bischoff that bought Vince's shares0
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I'm just gonna leave this here, I genuinely don't know where else to post it.
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Lithium93_ wrote:I'm just gonna leave this here, I genuinely don't know where else to post it.
Should have had Lesnar do it. Rightly he'd have told WWE to f**k off at the suggestion of it though.0 -
How to ruin Braun step 10
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The Bucks best shot at achieving the big crowd has to be in Britain imo where the indy scene is red hot .
Somewhere like Wembley Arena. TNA always drew well there.0 -
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Personally I would take the Bucks shtick over junk like this.
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Steph's dress was half a step up from a bin liner.0
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This discussion has been closed.
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