Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....

Ape Lincoln

If WWE were concerned with equality then they probably wouldn't have gone to Saudi Arabia where women were barred from attending their show.

CSF

Ape Lincoln wrote: »

If WWE were concerned with equality then they probably wouldn't have gone to Saudi Arabia where women were barred from attending their show.

It's not about being concerned with equality, it's about appearing to be.

krudler

leggo wrote: »

I dunno if I'd go that far, their characters are what drove the popularity ultimately rather than the other way around. There's nothing to say that another extraordinarily talented, charismatic guy can't hit those heights again (if not the business as a whole for reasons already discussed here).

Wrestling's nature has a way of ensuring the cream rises. Your Hogans, Rocks and Austins are just cases of the right guys being in the right place at the right time. Once WWE's new business model settles it's just a case of who's there to take the ball and run with it. I think we're approaching 'right time' territory, things seem to be clicking.

Right now it feels like a big transition period, the long established guys like Taker and HHH and pretty much done, Rock is a part time attraction, same with Brock. Cena is currently in an upper midcard feud and The Shield are going up against three main event veterans. you have Cesaro who has main eventer written all over him, newer guys are being given something to do, it's not quite attitude era stuff yet but it's looking promising alright. Just keep the booking solid, make new stars into bigger stars and things will fall into place.

leggo

krudler wrote: »

Right now it feels like a big transition period, the long established guys like Taker and HHH and pretty much done, Rock is a part time attraction, same with Brock. Cena is currently in an upper midcard feud and The Shield are going up against three main event veterans. you have Cesaro who has main eventer written all over him, newer guys are being given something to do, it's not quite attitude era stuff yet but it's looking promising alright. Just keep the booking solid, make new stars into bigger stars and things will fall into place.

Agreed, I think we're just waiting for a real breakout moment from one of the guys on the periphery now. Who knows if Roman Reigns is just one Raw away from making a Rocky Maivia-The Rock transition? It's quite exciting to watch when you think about it that way.

CSF

leggo wrote: »

Agreed, I think we're just waiting for a real breakout moment from one of the guys on the periphery now. Who knows if Roman Reigns is just one Raw away from making a Rocky Maivia-The Rock transition? It's quite exciting to watch when you think about it that way.

I know. The chap can't speak, at all. The other 2 guys are currently carrying him through this Evolution feud while allowing him to look strong.

Nobody is on the cusp of it just yet. Reigns needs to develop an ability to do recorded promos, never mind live mic. Cesaro needs to improve this too. Bray Wyatt needs to develop his ring skills massively too.

WWE will make these guys look strong in the meantime (Wyatt has arguably given the best program of the 3) but they won't pull the trigger until someone is ready.

The gap in difference in being the finished product between Bryan, Lesnar, Cena and Reigns, Wyatt, Cesaro is still huge. All the guys need a good solid gradual program to develop before being catapulted to main guy status.

CSF

I would actually genuinely question whether Wyatt's ring ability or Reigns' acting will ever be good enough to be a main event player like Cena, Brock or Lesnar.

Cesaro seems the most likely but I don't really know whether that's a heel or a face.

Ape Lincoln

rovert wrote: »

Poor Evan

Apparently has been cleared physically since November. But apparently Creative have nothing for him. Personally though WWE were waiting for his contract to run out like they did with Big Zeke. But instead WWE added another year to his contract recently. Would love to know what the story is on the WWE side. Apparently Triple H and Vince McMahon really dislike him or at least did.

If WWE really disliked someone, would they be so vindictive as to try and prevent them from having a wrestling career by keeping them under contract so they can't work anywhere else and not using them on TV or even at house shows so that when they eventually get released they might not get many bookings?

I've heard it mentioned that WWE don't want to be seeing as firing people as it's easier to just let contracts run out but at least in the pre-Attitude years WWF guys under contract were allowed work the indies and get paid and WWF picked up a booking fee.

leggo

The trick in wrestling is just finding your voice, it can happen overnight once you're given the right gimmick or idea to work with. As long as the guys have their fundamentals down (and they do), they could break out at any stage. Just a case of who's losing the most sleep trying to think outside the box really.

CSF

leggo wrote: »

The trick in wrestling is just finding your voice, it can happen overnight once you're given the right gimmick or idea to work with. As long as the guys have their fundamentals down (and they do), they could break out at any stage. Just a case of who's losing the most sleep trying to think outside the box really.

Not buying it. WWE will not give the push (and Daniel Bryan is an example of how hard it is to get where you should be without the push) until they're confident someone is ready.

There are a few cases where WWE have decided incorrectly that someone is ready and it hasn't gone well for the person to be involved because once the push begins but then stops abruptly, it's hard to find a way back. Ryback and Big E (a more low profile example) are case in point. If Roman Reigns gets pushed into the title picture tomorrow and falls flat on his face, it would be hard for him to ever credibly make his way back. The chap needs to develop promo and live mic skills first. Wyatt needs to be able to make great matches against less great competitors in the way a Bryan or a Cesaro could. These are the ingredients of a WWE top star.

WinnyThePoo

Is it fair to say Daniel Bryan has always been thought of highly by the WWE. He had a good run on NXT with The Miz. He came back for summerslam and lasted till the final two on John Cenas team. He has constantly been involved in the WHC scene. Of course though getting a wrestlemania moment like he did is surely the pinnacle of any wrestlers career.

irs

John Cena is still the biggest draw in the company and as long as he is around it's going to be difficult for anyone to break out and become a huge star. He's the safe and reliable option for WWE and even now he's got the biggest one on one feud going into Extreme Rules. Because of this WWE will be reluctant to properly get behind someone as they have Cena to fall back on. In previous eras Hogan, Austin & the Rock all left the company and for various reasons couldn't be brought back. If the Rock or Stone Cold were still full time in 2005 Cena wouldn't have become the top man just as Hogan was still the biggest draw in wrestling and would have overshadowed everyone else had he been in the WWF in the mid-late 90's.

CSF

irs wrote: »

John Cena is still the biggest draw in the company and as long as he is around it's going to be difficult for anyone to break out and become a huge star. He's the safe and reliable option for WWE and even now he's got the biggest one on one feud going into Extreme Rules. Because of this WWE will be reluctant to properly get behind someone as they have Cena to fall back on. In previous eras Hogan, Austin & the Rock all left the company and for various reasons couldn't be brought back. If the Rock or Stone Cold were still full time in 2005 Cena wouldn't have become the top man just as Hogan was still the biggest draw in wrestling and would have overshadowed everyone else had he been in the WWF in the mid-late 90's.

Those guys need to do what Bryan did really and co-exist with Cena rather than oust him. Seriously tough task.

leggo

CSF wrote: »

Not buying it. WWE will not give the push (and Daniel Bryan is an example of how hard it is to get where you should be without the push) until they're confident someone is ready.

There are a few cases where WWE have decided incorrectly that someone is ready and it hasn't gone well for the person to be involved because once the push begins but then stops abruptly, it's hard to find a way back. Ryback and Big E (a more low profile example) are case in point. If Roman Reigns gets pushed into the title picture tomorrow and falls flat on his face, it would be hard for him to ever credibly make his way back. The chap needs to develop promo and live mic skills first. Wyatt needs to be able to make great matches against less great competitors in the way a Bryan or a Cesaro could. These are the ingredients of a WWE top star.

I've literally seen it happen overnight with my own two eyes: one guy who's struggling but has good fundamental gets told one idea or general direction and they run with it and don't look back. And it works on a WWE level too, CM Punk and Daniel Bryan weren't ever meant to main event PPVs and WrestleManias, then they dropped 'Pipe Bombs' and started chanting 'YES!' and that all changed.

If you look at the Hogans, Rocks, Cenas, Austins, it follows through. Guys might be tipped for main event spots (as you point out yourself) but with the people that keep them you can look back at one moment or shift in direction that saw them finally 'click' and excel. Hogan beat Shiek for the belt, Rock started speaking in third person, Cena started rapping, Austin 3:16 said I just whupped your ass. Some of them were handpicked for success, some of them weren't, the one's that did succeed are the one's that did something with the opportunities (big or small) given to them. Like it or not, it's in their own hands, not Triple H's. Sure if it was up to the latter, Sheamus would probably be the biggest name in wrestling today by a distance.

If guys are in WWE and getting used, they can all work* (the same way a Premier League footballer can play to a high level by default), it's that 'Other' column that needs ticking. When Cesaro brought back the giant swing from his indie days, he started ticking that box. It could even be someone that we don't expect that makes the jump, a Ziggler or Sandow. Necessity is the mother of invention after all and often it's the guys just desperately throwing anything at the wall that'll fall into something that sticks.

*Except Khali. Khali can't work.

CSF

leggo wrote: »

I've literally seen it happen overnight with my own two eyes: one guy who's struggling but has good fundamental gets told one idea or general direction and they run with it and don't look back. And it works on a WWE level too, CM Punk and Daniel Bryan weren't ever meant to main event PPVs and WrestleManias, then they dropped 'Pipe Bombs' and started chanting 'YES!' and that all changed.

If you look at the Hogans, Rocks, Cenas, Austins, it follows through. Guys might be tipped for main event spots (as you point out yourself) but with the people that keep them you can look back at one moment or shift in direction that saw them finally 'click' and excel. Hogan beat Shiek for the belt, Rock started speaking in third person, Cena started rapping, Austin 3:16 said I just whupped your ass. Some of them were handpicked for success, some of them weren't, the one's that did succeed are the one's that did something with the opportunities (big or small) given to them. Like it or not, it's in their own hands, not Triple H's. Sure if it was up to the latter, Sheamus would probably be the biggest name in wrestling today by a distance.

If guys are in WWE and getting used, they can all work* (the same way a Premier League footballer can play to a high level by default), it's that 'Other' column that needs ticking. When Cesaro brought back the giant swing from his indie days, he started ticking that box. It could even be someone that we don't expect that makes the jump, a Ziggler or Sandow. Necessity is the mother of invention after all and often it's the guys just desperately throwing anything at the wall that'll fall into something that sticks.

*Except Khali. Khali can't work.

Plenty wrong here. I didn't say it can't happen overnight, it can happen overnight, but the person it happens to has to be ready, timing is everything of course, but it doesn't matter how easy the ball is to catch, you have to be able to run with it.

CM Punk and Daniel Bryan are terrible examples to use here. Both men absolutely ooze talent and were pretty much the full package. People were saying this about Bryan long before anyone in the higher ups recognised it.

When we're talking about The Rock, Austin etc. you're arguing a point nobody would disagree with, the moment has to be right. There has been loads and will be loads of immensely talented guys who it never happens for and won't happen for, the right time is crucial. But good timing isn't enough, you have to have the skills to capitalise on that, which is why now wouldn't be good timing for the guys I was talking about, because they're not ready to capitalise on it, some of them will be at a later point, probably not all of them.

Premier League footballers are a really weak comparison. Being part of a collective is much easier, which is why Roman Reigns and Bray Wyatt are so well placed at the moment. Both guys are in massive need of the guys around them. Ambrose and Rollins are the ones carrying the Evolution feud at the moment, while Reigns still gets to look good. Wyatt's good matches have all been 6-man tags or against people like Daniel Bryan who are incapable of wrestling bad matches. If Wyatt had to wrestle singles matches twice a week and at every PPV he would be found out really quickly. The idea is that over time Reigns will develop character and Wyatt will improve in the ring. Throwing them into the bigtime before any of this has happened would be kamikaze, no matter what 'moment' came their way.

Timing or no timing, you have to be ready. Right now nobody is. Cesaro the closest for me. Hardly surprising, considering how few people ever reach that level.

leggo

You're saying I'm giving bad examples then seem to be agreeing with my general point? I mean, if you're agreeing it can all change overnight where exactly do we disagree?

But okay, I think I get you. The thing is...how do you know if they're ready or not? Hindsight is 20/20, very few people had high expectations for Punk or Bryan before they made their own breaks, Austin only got his as a result of Triple H being punished, The Rock was one of the most hated babyfaces to-date in wrestling history, etc. Nobody would've said any of them were 'ready' and destined for the success they've all had at the time of asking. And if they do, they're lying with the benefit of hindsight.

Then, just like that, turns out all of them were ready.

That's what I mean about a breakout moment. Like I said, all of the guys we're discussing can work. Reigns, Cesaro, Wyatt etc haven't been tested at the main event level yet, so there's absolutely no indication of whether they'll sink or swim. To say they're not 'ready' is pure guesswork, like speculating about David Moyes at Man Utd last August.

You don't know, I don't know, nobody knows until they actually get that break then sink or swim. The only reason they haven't gotten it yet is because WWE don't need to rush them. That's it. If this were 1996, all of the above would probably have had a title reign.

CSF

leggo wrote: »

You're saying I'm giving bad examples then seem to be agreeing with my general point? I mean, if you're agreeing it can all change overnight where exactly do we disagree?

But okay, I think I get you. The thing is...how do you know if they're ready or not? Hindsight is 20/20, very few people had high expectations for Punk or Bryan before they made their own breaks, Austin only got his as a result of Triple H being punished, The Rock was one of the most hated babyfaces to-date in wrestling history, etc. Nobody would've said any of them were 'ready' and destined for the success they've all had at the time of asking. And if they do, they're lying with the benefit of hindsight.

Then, just like that, turns out all of them were ready.

That's what I mean about a breakout moment. Like I said, all of the guys we're discussing can work. Reigns, Cesaro, Wyatt etc haven't been tested at the main event level yet, so there's absolutely no indication of whether they'll sink or swim. To say they're not 'ready' is pure guesswork, like speculating about David Moyes at Man Utd last August.

You don't know, I don't know, nobody knows until they actually get that break then sink or swim. The only reason they haven't gotten it yet is because WWE don't need to rush them. That's it. If this were 1996, all of the above would probably have had a title reign.

You know they're ready when they're not bad at really important things. Testing someone at main event level when they're not strong enough to go it alone at the level below that is borderline insanity.

It isn't guesswork at all. Guy who is good at wrestling and can carry an A grade match and a feud on his own bat, possibly ready. Guy who can't do that, not ready. The notion that Bray Wyatt is suddenly going to be the next Daniel Bryan, or Roman Reigns is suddenly gonna be dishing out epic pipebombs or even Cena promos when pushed into the main event is nuts. You have to earn your way there by being very very good.

leggo

I know what you mean, but I'll leave it here: when Daniel Bryan first started chanting "YES!" after he won the WHC, did that make him great on the mic? People were predicting his decline as soon as he won the Money in the Bank. Yet he got a shot, learned on the job (which is key in wrestling - you're never the complete package and constantly evolving, Steve Austin still can't watch back any of his old work and most would call him a complete package) and thrived as each challenge presented itself. He still isn't a fantastic mic worker, but is learning to get by as a main event talent and will no doubt improve further as time goes on. We also still don't know if he can carry a main event feud off his own back btw. This is his first big programme without Cena or Triple H. And that's the current figurehead of the company.

We're splitting hairs though and agree on the gist.

CSF

leggo wrote: »

I know what you mean, but I'll leave it here: when Daniel Bryan first started chanting "YES!" after he won the WHC, did that make him great on the mic? People were predicting his decline as soon as he won the Money in the Bank. Yet he got a shot, learned on the job (which is key in wrestling - you're never the complete package and constantly evolving, Steve Austin still can't watch back any of his old work and most would call him a complete package) and thrived as each challenge presented itself. He still isn't a fantastic mic worker, but is learning to get by as a main event talent and will no doubt improve further as time goes on. We also still don't know if he can carry a main event feud off his own back btw. This is his first big programme without Cena or Triple H. And that's the current figurehead of the company.

We're splitting hairs though and agree on the gist.

That was a time when Daniel Bryan wasn't ready though, he'd have even laughed out of the house if WWE tried to portray him as 'the guy'. He worked relentlessly on it though to the point where the fans pretty much knew he was ready before the WWE did. That's what these guys need to do. Improve immensely on what they're not very good at and they'll be flying because WWE have already sowed the seeds for them to make the push.

Daniel Bryan may not be CM Punk on a mic (in the same way that Punk wouldn't be as good as Bryan in the ring) but he is more than good enough at it, to make the feud anticipated enough, to have the great match he will inevitably put on be fully appreciated.

the groutch

With there only being one main title right now, I reckon they should should have a match at MITB for either the Divas or Intercontinental title.

with the Divas they could have AJ win on her return, so they can give a significant title reign to Page, but still keep AJ in the picture.

gnfnrhead

the groutch wrote: »

With there only being one main title right now, I reckon they should should have a match at MITB for either the Divas or Intercontinental title.

with the Divas they could have AJ win on her return, so they can give a significant title reign to Page, but still keep AJ in the picture.

An actual MITB match for the Divas? That would be a train wreck. I'd only trust AJ and Natayla in a MITB match (assuming Paige as champion wouldn't be in it) meaning a lot of dead weight for them to carry.

tvercetti

Would they ever use MITB to split the titles again? So 2 cases as usual, 1 for each belt.

Not advocating it, just curious.

the blunder years

tvercetti wrote: »

Would they ever use MITB to split the titles again? So 2 cases as usual, 1 for each belt.

Not advocating it, just curious.

I don't think so, I think there is only one champion because Raw and Smackdown aren't separate shows anymore.

mrkiscool2

I think one title makes it a lot better and only have one MITB match. That way you have the entire roster fighting for a place in the match, never mind the actual briefcase itself! Will bring a lot of prestige back to the title and have the briefcase become really important again (it definitely lost some when Sandow failed to cash in)

Jester252

tvercetti wrote: »

Would they ever use MITB to split the titles again? So 2 cases as usual, 1 for each belt.

Not advocating it, just curious.

Sandow fishes out the case that Cody tossed into the sea.

the blunder years

Jester252 wrote: »

Sandow fishes out the case that Cody tossed into the sea.

That was a relative high point in his career considering this past Monday night.

Blue_Dabadee

I really do hate the thought of WWE maybe turning The Wyatt Family babyfaces after this feud with John Cena is over.

I think the only way for The Wyatt Family face turn to work is that they feud with Triple H or Brock Lesnar.

CSF

mxph3 wrote: »

I really do hate the thought of WWE maybe turning The Wyatt Family babyfaces after this feud with John Cena is over.

I think the only way for The Wyatt Family face turn to work is that they feud with Triple H or Brock Lesnar.

Cena will be coming back and kicking their asses now, combined with the ****ness of the win last night is unlikely to fire them in the direction of the guys who only fight 3/4 matches a year. Wyatt v Cesaro next for me.

Machismo Fan

mxph3 wrote: »

I really do hate the thought of WWE maybe turning The Wyatt Family babyfaces after this feud with John Cena is over.

They'd be mad to turn the Wyatts before a title feud vs. Bryan.

leggo

I don't think they're doing outright faces and heels anymore (unless the story dictates as much). They seem content to leave everyone in a perpetual state of John Cena/tweener as it frees them up to write any story they want knowing the fans will just cheer for their favourites anyway regardless.

Wyatt's character doesn't compromise this: he preaches a heel message, but it figures that a guy trying to cultivate a following would welcome support without straying from message. This also lets WWE drag the Wyatt story out while keeping it fresh, which is pretty much exactly what you want when you're booking, so I doubt they're in a rush to do anything drastic character-wise and just let it play out. From that standpoint, feuds with both Bryan and Cesaro are definitely possible in the near future, but I don't think he's done with Cena just yet.

Ape Lincoln

Vince McMahon has said he doesn't want heels and faces anymore. Stupid 'cause any character based story needs an antagonist and protagonist. As mentioned before, heels aren't allowed wrestle as heels.