Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....

SureYWouldntYa

Ape Lincoln wrote: »

heels aren't allowed wrestle as heels.

That's one of the reasons why. Heels in the past while have found it hard to get heel heat, because they're limited in what they can say and do. Might as well have everyone mostly face, and then fans can choose their favourite in a storyline or match

Moneymaker

SureYWouldntYa wrote: »

That's one of the reasons why. Heels in the past while have found it hard to get heel heat, because they're limited in what they can say and do. Might as well have everyone mostly face, and then fans can choose their favourite in a storyline or match

That's not true at all.

Heels are allowed do and say a lot more then babyfaces are.

If they've found it hard to get heat it's because they're bad heels.

It's easier to get people to boo you then it is to cheer you.

SureYWouldntYa

Moneymaker wrote: »

That's not true at all.

Heels are allowed do and say a lot more then babyfaces are.

If they've found it hard to get heat it's because they're bad heels.

It's easier to get people to boo you then it is to cheer you.

Imagine the heat Kane would have got if he left Bryan a bloody mess there a few weeks ago ?

While I like Bray Wyatt and the idea of his character, what does he ever do ? He talks about being "the reaper of souls". What does ever do about from mumble on and on, and give the sister abigail and Rowan and Harper attack or interfere.

He'd have been a great character 15 years ago, imagne the stuff they could have had him do

jaykhunter

I agree it's far easier to be a heel, as it's creatively freeing as you don't have to worry about the fans. However today's fans are receptive to talent, so even if you're doing and saying something heelish, people see you're providing great entertainment, and cheer. Still easier than WWE's white-meat faces who are booked to tip-toe around anything fans might consider objectionable. Blame nWo's cool heels, which forever killed the divide.

ShagNastii

I think the unfortunate thing for faces is that ost actions of a face grow stale very quickly. To be a pr*ck you can do countless things. To be a nice guy there are only so many avenues to go down.

Smiling, waving and beating the bad guy. That's about it.

gnfnrhead

Ape Lincoln wrote: »

Vince McMahon has said he doesn't want heels and faces anymore. Stupid 'cause any character based story needs an antagonist and protagonist. As mentioned before, heels aren't allowed wrestle as heels.

Funny how Russo was completely shit on for saying that, but with McMahon it's only a that's dumb type reaction. Yay for double standards! :pac:

Mr.Saturn

Ape Lincoln wrote: »

Vince McMahon has said he doesn't want heels and faces anymore. Stupid 'cause any character based story needs an antagonist and protagonist. As mentioned before, heels aren't allowed wrestle as heels.

The Meltzer report that's cited from stated that it was less about 'no face, no heels' and more about no one's completely heel or completely face, there was nothing about jettisoning the dynamic.

Anyways, just watching RAW and it's gone to break, and having watched a lot of Nitro recently, it has me mourning for the days where Schiavone'd lead into a break with a 'if this contest ends during commercial we'll bring you highlights after'. It adds such an air of legitimacy and unpredictability for virtually zero effort. It certainly would go ways to obscuring how rigidly formatted RAW tends to be, where nothing of consequence takes place outside the top of the hours. Well, of limited relevance to a battle royale, but still......

leggo

Ape Lincoln wrote: »

Vince McMahon has said he doesn't want heels and faces anymore. Stupid 'cause any character based story needs an antagonist and protagonist. As mentioned before, heels aren't allowed wrestle as heels.

You can have an antagonist and protagonist without having a clear cut good guy and bad guy, that's how real life works sure! :pac: I think it makes total sense in this day and age, I wrote about it not too long ago and have been saying the same for years.

irs

When did you write for 411wrestling? I remember going onto that site and spending about half an hour clicking on all the articles/reviews etc. from during the week and reading them offline later.

Sirsok

leggo wrote: »

You can have an antagonist and protagonist without having a clear cut good guy and bad guy, that's how real life works sure! :pac: I think it makes total sense in this day and age, I wrote about it not too long ago and have been saying the same for years.

I was actually thinking about this the other day watching the CM Punk documentary and how ridiculous it seems to be a bad guy then just turn into a good guy all of a sudden....it seems meaningless...like watching breaking bad for example,I don't think that a face or heel is clearly distinguishable, my opinions of Walt changed every episode whereas poor skylar was hated throughout....

If cena turns heel it makes sense as he has been good for 10 years....bit the likes of Cody Rhodes changing every year and a half, I love you no I hate you just seems to far fetched, I know TV shows have time to take a break and wwe don't but real life doesn't work like that

leggo

irs wrote: »

When did you write for 411wrestling? I remember going onto that site and spending about half an hour clicking on all the articles/reviews etc. from during the week and reading them offline later.

This is years back now, around Mania 21-ish I believe when I was around 16.

Sirsok wrote: »

I was actually thinking about this the other day watching the CM Punk documentary and how ridiculous it seems to be a bad guy then just turn into a good guy all of a sudden....it seems meaningless...like watching breaking bad for example,I don't think that a face or heel is clearly distinguishable, my opinions of Walt changed every episode whereas poor skylar was hated throughout....

If cena turns heel it makes sense as he has been good for 10 years....bit the likes of Cody Rhodes changing every year and a half, I love you no I hate you just seems to far fetched, I know TV shows have time to take a break and wwe don't but real life doesn't work like that

Exactly, whereas if you push a storyline and have the character react naturally then let the audience decide how they feel it can flow organically, rather than saying, "This person is inherently good/bad now." People like me in certain scenarios, in others the same people may hate me. I'm neither good nor bad: at times I can be really sound, at others probably a bit of a dick. Depends what's pushing me to act that way. That's real life.

irs

I'm not sure if wrestling can be compared to TV dramas though. There are huge limits in the type of storylines you can do and what characters can go through. A wrestling show takes place in an arena in front of a crowd and is shown on TV. It's acknowledged that this is happening in front of millions of people. You can't have wrestlers cooking Crystal Meth in a desert as it wouldn't be done in front of cameras or shown on Raw. The audience can only see the same things that all the characters can and nothing else. Plus wrestling characters can't die or even get seriously ill as there nowhere you can really go with it and nobody would buy into it. Also wrestlers are ultimately athletes rather than actors. Being good at promos are playing your character well isn't the same as being able to act.

gnfnrhead

irs wrote: »

Plus wrestling characters can't die

Not a wrestler, but they killed off Al Wilson. :pac:

leggo

irs wrote: »

I'm not sure if wrestling can be compared to TV dramas though. There are huge limits in the type of storylines you can do and what characters can go through. A wrestling show takes place in an arena in front of a crowd and is shown on TV. It's acknowledged that this is happening in front of millions of people. You can't have wrestlers cooking Crystal Meth in a desert as it wouldn't be done in front of cameras or shown on Raw. The audience can only see the same things that all the characters can and nothing else. Plus wrestling characters can't die or even get seriously ill as there nowhere you can really go with it and nobody would buy into it. Also wrestlers are ultimately athletes rather than actors. Being good at promos are playing your character well isn't the same as being able to act.

None of that has anything to do with the main point though: that fans are cheering who they want regardless already. So why fight it?

The biggest problem with the idea is that it goes against basic ring psychology of planning a match with a face/heel in mind. But if wrestlers are good enough to improvise in the ring based on the crowd's reactions (and if they aren't they shouldn't be doing it full-time for WWE) that solved that problem.

Jerichoholic

Adam Rose is the most cringeworthy gimmick I've seen in years. There, I said it.

gnfnrhead

Jerichoholic wrote: »

Adam Rose is the most cringeworthy gimmick I've seen in years. There, I said it.

Missed Emma so? :pac:

Jerichoholic

Emma is just harmless nonsense, I'm fine with that. It's that they have put so much effort into this that it's overkill. The fact that Michael Cole is dancing around "Having fun, King", shows you how lame the whole thing really is.

Hashtag_HEEL

Jerichoholic wrote: »

The fact that Michael Cole is dancing around "Having fun, King", shows you how lame the whole thing really is.

I think that's a problem of commentary and not the gimmick tbh. They're a bit too long in the tooth play off a party boy gimmick as cool, they sound like they're trying to be "hip with the kids".

I do think that to like or dislike Rose is an unpopular opinion. He's marmite at the minute. Personally I love it! It's a great gimmick with a lot of fun around it. I know he won't be a maineventer with it but still its fun and easy to enjoy.

Moneymaker

Best segment ever.

krudler

Sirsok wrote: »

I was actually thinking about this the other day watching the CM Punk documentary and how ridiculous it seems to be a bad guy then just turn into a good guy all of a sudden....it seems meaningless...like watching breaking bad for example,I don't think that a face or heel is clearly distinguishable, my opinions of Walt changed every episode whereas poor skylar was hated throughout....

If cena turns heel it makes sense as he has been good for 10 years....bit the likes of Cody Rhodes changing every year and a half, I love you no I hate you just seems to far fetched, I know TV shows have time to take a break and wwe don't but real life doesn't work like that

Or in the Big Show's case, every other week it seems :pac: he surely must have a record for the most number of heel turns in wrestling history?

the groutch

krudler wrote: »

Or in the Big Show's case, every other week it seems :pac: he surely must have a record for the most number of heel turns in wrestling history?

I think you might be Miz-taken

Reebrock

the groutch wrote: »

I think you might be Miz-taken

I don't think he is...

Moneymaker

29(!) according to this in an 18 year career.

Somehow I thought it was more.

http://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/1o04ph/history_of_big_show_heelface_turns/

Omackeral

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNttpCyfT2w

This is just me basically being an idiot in my mate's apartment. Dig It!

Ape Lincoln

Heard it suggested that WWE should bring back jobbers for Raw and Smackdown! I think it could be a good idea. Among other things it would get signature moves over as finishers however without devaluing them to a point where you have kickouts on finishers on TV as opposed to PPVs. Could also put stop to complaints about contract workers being buried when they lose a TV match.

A big negative could be a dip in ratings as people would be wise to them and switch off but people in large numbers switch off if there's something on Raw they don't like.

ShagNastii

krudler wrote: »

Or in the Big Show's case, every other week it seems :pac: he surely must have a record for the most number of heel turns in wrestling history?

I think 9 times out of 10 if somebody has had a decent face run their heel turn will be quite good. There is a reason why Hollywood Hogan is one of the greatest heels of all time. I remember when Orton became the Legend Killer. It was such a success because for months and months leading to the turn he was the babiest of babyfaces. (Eg. Broken arm coming out and genuinely thanking the faces for their support)

Angron

I dunno, those thanking things were kinda heelish, and they were often interrupting face promos, weren't they? I remember at Survivor Series 2002 for example, Randy interrupted Shawn Michaels talking about the upcoming Elimination Chamber match. It set the groundwork for being a heel when he was back in-ring anyway.

Before those though, he was so babyface it was painful.

CSF

Ape Lincoln wrote: »

Heard it suggested that WWE should bring back jobbers for Raw and Smackdown! I think it could be a good idea. Among other things it would get signature moves over as finishers however without devaluing them to a point where you have kickouts on finishers on TV as opposed to PPVs. Could also put stop to complaints about contract workers being buried when they lose a TV match.

A big negative could be a dip in ratings as people would be wise to them and switch off but people in large numbers switch off if there's something on Raw they don't like.

I'd definitely stop watching anyway

Whosthis

Ape Lincoln wrote: »

Heard it suggested that WWE should bring back jobbers for Raw and Smackdown!.

Ahem,


Curt Hawkins
Damien Sandow
Darren Young
David Otunga
Diego
Drew McIntyre
Fandango
Fernando
The Great Khali
Heath Slater
Jinder Mahal
Justin Gabriel
Kofi Kingston
R-Truth
Sin Cara
Xavier Woods
Zack Ryder

krudler

ShagNastii wrote: »

I think 9 times out of 10 if somebody has had a decent face run their heel turn will be quite good. There is a reason why Hollywood Hogan is one of the greatest heels of all time. I remember when Orton became the Legend Killer. It was such a success because for months and months leading to the turn he was the babiest of babyfaces. (Eg. Broken arm coming out and genuinely thanking the faces for their support)

I thought the point of those was to annoy the bejesus out of people? Randy TV or something it was called wasnt it