Responsibility for open spaces maintenance

Fiskar

Would like to pose a valid question. Just who is responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of open spaces in a housing estate that has been taken into charge by the Local Authority?

My question is based on the following:

Under the Planning and Development Act 2000 the developer is responsible for the maintenance of open spaces until the estate is taken into charge by the local authority.
As the local authority has taken this and many other estates into charge as the basis for getting residents to sign-up for the Household charge in 2012 (the Household Charge Legislation specifically states that the charge was to go on the open space maintenance as one of the areas the money was to be spent on).

My question is, given that the LPT has replaced the household charge as a permanent form of tax, is it not reasonable to suggest that the onus is on the local authorities to maintain the open spaces in housing estates taken into charge?

Should residential estates push back the responsibility on open space maintenance back to the local authority?


Here is an extract from the planning regulations on estate finishing and taking into charge of developments.

The Planning and Development Act 2000 provides that where a housing development has been completed in accordance with the conditions of a planning permission and to the satisfaction of the local authority, the local authority must, if requested by the person carrying out the development or by a majority of the residents, take the estate in charge. Where the development has not been completed to the satisfaction of the local authority and no enforcement proceedings have been taken against the developer within seven years of the expiration of the planning permission, the estate shall be taken in charge if so requested by the majority of the residents.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Development...nningGuidance/

Also look at the guidance called Taking in Charge of Residential Developments Circular Letter PD 1/08

Victor

Fiskar wrote: »

the Household Charge Legislation specifically states that the charge was to go on the open space maintenance as one of the areas the money was to be spent on

To what extent? Bowling green perfectness or cut the grass once every 100 years?

Fiskar

Victor wrote: »

To what extent? Bowling green perfectness or cut the grass once every 100 years?

Revenues from the Household Charge will support the provision of local services. Internationally, local services are administered by local authorities and financed by local service charges. In Ireland, local authorities are responsible for, among other services, public parks; libraries; open spaces and leisure amenities; planning and development; fire and emergency services; maintenance and cleaning of streets and street lighting. These facilities benefit everyone.

Says it pretty clear to me.
Victor, one could interpret responsibility in the same context as you put maintenance.

What I am seeking in my question is the legitimacy of residents associations soliciting on my doorstep for money for cutting grass on open spaces when the obligation resides with the local authority.

Are they allowed solicit forcibly for money or do they have to have a permit for collecting money. Are they legally within their rights to seek money for maintaining open spaces for which they have no legal tenure and which are under the remit of the local authority?

Marcusm

The Local Gvernment (Household Charge) Act 2011 did not provide specifics for what the money was to be spent on; it simply forms part of local government funds. The items you are quoting are generally not law or regulation but guidelines which are to an extent aspirations. If the local authroity has taken the property in charge then they have assumed an obligation to keep it in reasonable order. It is perfectly common for local residents to seek to raise further funds for enhancements or improvements. If they are doing so "forcibly", you need to speak to the Gardai as that would undoubtedly be unlawful. No local authority is going to stop residents from making improvements in this manner albeit that they may not have specific permission. However, they may be taking on responsibilities if they create hazards. If the problem is the annoying neighbours, your solution is unlikely to be a legal one!

billy few mates

Our housing estate was taken in charge by the local authority a number of years back so they look after everything in the estate EXCEPT the maintenance of the green common areas so we have a residents association who organise for the grass cutting and maintenance of the green areas in the estate.
To pay for this we ask for a voluntary contribution from each of the houses, less than 50% of the houses pay, some people 'refuse to pay' citing all sorts of spurious reasons for their "protest", some houses say they can't afford to pay anything (unemployed, lone parents, pensioners etc), almost none of the rented houses pay, some people refuse to pay because they "don't use the green areas", some people make a small donation, and some people say they will pay but never actually do. The residents association do a huge amount of work organising tenders, dropping leaflets, and going out over a number of weeks collecting from door to door, arranging the payments, banking the money, maintaining full accounts, organising AGMs, Neighbourhood Watch, Estate Clean Up Days etc etc, all completely voluntarily in their free time, hail rain or snow.
Some people are quite happy to pay to keep their estate looking its best and some people are quite happy to sit back and let someone else pay for it for them.
I don't know what's going to happen now that the LPT is in place, maybe the local authorities will take over the grass cutting, I certainly hope so because its a pretty thankless task going from door to door asking people to chip in towards the upkeep of the estate they live in.
The voluntary contribution we ask for is €50 per annum (less than a Euro a week) but if every house paid we could do it for €20.....

I suppose it all boils down to how (and where) you want to live, if you're quite happy living in an estate that looks like a ****hole instead of a development with manicured lawns where the kids can play you should get together with a number of your neighbours and refuse to pay and see if the LA comes and cuts the grass for you...

LoveCoke

billy few mates wrote: »

Our housing estate was taken in charge by the local authority a number of years back so they look after everything in the estate EXCEPT the maintenance of the green common areas so we have a residents association who organise for the grass cutting and maintenance of the green areas in the estate.
To pay for this we ask for a voluntary contribution from each of the houses, less than 50% of the houses pay, some people 'refuse to pay' citing all sorts of spurious reasons for their "protest", some houses say they can't afford to pay anything (unemployed, lone parents, pensioners etc), almost none of the rented houses pay, some people refuse to pay because they "don't use the green areas", some people make a small donation, and some people say they will pay but never actually do. The residents association do a huge amount of work organising tenders, dropping leaflets, and going out over a number of weeks collecting from door to door, arranging the payments, banking the money, maintaining full accounts, organising AGMs, Neighbourhood Watch, Estate Clean Up Days etc etc, all completely voluntarily in their free time, hail rain or snow.
Some people are quite happy to pay to keep their estate looking its best and some people are quite happy to sit back and let someone else pay for it for them.
I don't know what's going to happen now that the LPT is in place, maybe the local authorities will take over the grass cutting, I certainly hope so because its a pretty thankless task going from door to door asking people to chip in towards the upkeep of the estate they live in.
The voluntary contribution we ask for is €50 per annum (less than a Euro a week) but if every house paid we could do it for €20.....

I suppose it all boils down to how (and where) you want to live, if you're quite happy living in an estate that looks like a ****hole instead of a development with manicured lawns where the kids can play you should get together with a number of your neighbours and refuse to pay and see if the LA comes and cuts the grass for you...

Do you have a constitution in your organisation that people can ask about if you ask for money?

LoveCoke

Fiskar wrote: »

Revenues from the Household Charge will support the provision of local services. Internationally, local services are administered by local authorities and financed by local service charges. In Ireland, local authorities are responsible for, among other services, public parks; libraries; open spaces and leisure amenities; planning and development; fire and emergency services; maintenance and cleaning of streets and street lighting. These facilities benefit everyone.

Says it pretty clear to me.
Victor, one could interpret responsibility in the same context as you put maintenance.

What I am seeking in my question is the legitimacy of residents associations soliciting on my doorstep for money for cutting grass on open spaces when the obligation resides with the local authority.

Are they allowed solicit forcibly for money or do they have to have a permit for collecting money. Are they legally within their rights to seek money for maintaining open spaces for which they have no legal tenure and which are under the remit of the local authority?

How would someone be allowed to solicit forcibly for money and why would you be obliged to contribute if you choose not to?

billy few mates

Do you have a constitution in your organisation that people can ask about if you ask for money?

We have regular newsletters reminding residents of the need to maintain the common areas and telling them we will be calling door to door to collect the "voluntary contribution", we ask that anyone who can contribute would do so and anyone who genuinely feel they can't then that's fine too. We then arrange the amount of maintenance we can afford based on the amount of money we collect (if we get enough for 14 cuts, thats what we do, if we only get enough for 10 cuts, then we cut the grass until the money runs out), if we have any extra we use for weeding and spraying, tree replacements or leave it in the account towards next years bill.
We hold an AGM once a year where we show exactly how much we collected, how much we spent and how much we have left over etc, we don't actually publish a list of who paid and who didn't but we do allow anyone who's paid to see that information if they want to.

LoveCoke

billy few mates wrote: »

We have regular newsletters reminding residents of the need to maintain the common areas and telling them we will be calling door to door to collect the "voluntary contribution", we ask that anyone who can contribute would do so and anyone who genuinely feel they can't then that's fine too. We then arrange the amount of maintenance we can afford based on the amount of money we collect (if we get enough for 14 cuts, thats what we do, if we only get enough for 10 cuts, then we cut the grass until the money runs out), if we have any extra we use for weeding and spraying, tree replacements or leave it in the account towards next years bill.
We hold an AGM once a year where we show exactly how much we collected, how much we spent and how much we have left over etc, we don't actually publish a list of who paid and who didn't but we do allow anyone who's paid to see that information if they want to.

My understanding is there should be a constitution telling people what they get for their payment. Maybe that is is inherent in your newsletter. I was once approached and i asked if they had a constitution and they had no answer as to what they were going to do with the money so did not pay and they seem to have disappeared, i do not see any of their work here anyway.

see http://www.dublin15cc.com/documents/fcc-residents-handbook.pdf#page=7&zoom=auto,0,595 page 11

Does that raise data protection issues?

SB2013

LoveCoke wrote: »

My understanding is there should be a constitution telling people what they get for their payment. Maybe that is is inherent in your newsletter. I was once approached and i asked if they had a constitution and they had no answer as to what they were going to do with the money so did not pay and they seem to have disappeared, i do not see any of their work here anyway.

see http://www.dublin15cc.com/documents/fcc-residents-handbook.pdf#page=7&zoom=auto,0,595 page 11

A constitution wouldn't be the place for a specific breakdown but it should state the general aims

LoveCoke wrote: »

Does that raise data protection issues?

Only for the people who have paid.

billy few mates

We feel anybody who makes the voluntary contribution payment is entitled to see anything they want regarding the funds we collect, whether that be the bank account statements, the tenders and quotes, the invoices and payment receipts and even the details of who paid and who hasn't.
When people pay we mark them as paid, where people tell us they can't pay we just accept it and mark them as unpaid, where people refuse to pay (for whatever reason) we simply mark them as 'Refused'.
We don't publish a 'name and shame' list of who's paid and who hasn't but people who have paid are more than welcome to examine the records but anyone who hasn't cannot.
We recently had a series of calls and queries from a person living in the estate who was looking for the assistance of the Residents Association in dealing with some matter that had arisen and which she wanted to challenge or fight as it was causing her "great concern" etc etc, we looked at the records and confirmed she didn't contribute (and not for reasons of hardship) so we sent her on her way and told her to take it up with the council or whoever.
There are about eight of us on the RA committee, we've all been there from the start, if we didn't do it no one else would.
Every year we have an AGM where we hope that someone will come in and tell us they could do the job better and vote us out of office so we could hand the whole lot over to them but unfortunately it never happens so we're stuck with it.
It can be quite disheartening wanting to live in a development that looks clean and tidy when you have to share it with so many who couldn't care less what it looks like so long as they don't have to pay towards it. Every year we threaten to let it go to meadow but as soon as the spring comes and the grass starts to grow we start all over again.

LoveCoke

SB2013 wrote: »

A constitution wouldn't be the place for a specific breakdown but it should state the general aims



Only for the people who have paid.

http://www.iol.ie/~acra/acra005-004.htm

but does that not tell who didn't as well

LoveCoke

billy few mates wrote: »

We feel anybody who makes the voluntary contribution payment is entitled to see anything they want regarding the funds we collect, whether that be the bank account statements, the tenders and quotes, the invoices and payment receipts and even the details of who paid and who hasn't.
When people pay we mark them as paid, where people tell us they can't pay we just accept it and mark them as unpaid, where people refuse to pay (for whatever reason) we simply mark them as 'Refused'.
We don't publish a 'name and shame' list of who's paid and who hasn't but people who have paid are more than welcome to examine the records but anyone who hasn't cannot.
We recently had a series of calls and queries from a person living in the estate who was looking for the assistance of the Residents Association in dealing with some matter that had arisen and which she wanted to challenge or fight as it was causing her "great concern" etc etc, we looked at the records and confirmed she didn't contribute (and not for reasons of hardship) so we sent her on her way and told her to take it up with the council or whoever.
There are about eight of us on the RA committee, we've all been there from the start, if we didn't do it no one else would.
Every year we have an AGM where we hope that someone will come in and tell us they could do the job better and vote us out of office so we could hand the whole lot over to them but unfortunately it never happens so we're stuck with it.
It can be quite disheartening wanting to live in a development that looks clean and tidy when you have to share it with so many who couldn't care less what it looks like so long as they don't have to pay towards it. Every year we threaten to let it go to meadow but as soon as the spring comes and the grass starts to grow we start all over again.

if people who paid can see list of people who refused i would think it is a data protection issue. your efforts are commendable but i ca n understand where the people who do not want to pay are coming from too. Ifi were the concerned woman who did not contribute i would just go to council. An RA cannot do anything only raise it with council/gardai whoever

OP sorry your thread sems to have been derailed. How did you get on?

Fiskar

I think the question is not really answered by estates taking on the role of maintaining open spaces they do not have legal tenure of and which belong in the remit of the Local Authority that has taken the estate into charge.

Similarly the condition of the road in the estate is appalling, I for one have not seen a council van or worker in the estate ever. It is as if they are staying away on purpose in case they set a precedent in doing any remedial work.

Victor

billy few mates wrote: »

We feel anybody who makes the voluntary contribution payment is entitled to see anything they want regarding the funds we collect, whether that be the bank account statements, the tenders and quotes, the invoices and payment receipts and even the details of who paid and who hasn't.
When people pay we mark them as paid, where people tell us they can't pay we just accept it and mark them as unpaid, where people refuse to pay (for whatever reason) we simply mark them as 'Refused'.

I think you might have a problem, along the lies of 'fair dealing' with the information. You have no right to share someone's financial difficulties with what might be hundreds of people.

It would be one thing to let the committee or some of the committee to see who has paid, it is another to let the whole neighbourhood know.

Victor

Fiskar wrote: »

Similarly the condition of the road in the estate is appalling, I for one have not seen a council van or worker in the estate ever. It is as if they are staying away on purpose in case they set a precedent in doing any remedial work.

The council hasn't a clue about the condition of the road if nobody tells them. Take photos, e-mail them to the council roads department and copy the e-mail to the local councillors if necessary.

I got a sign fixed in under 7 hours by making a phone call.