prohibition on foreign honours

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Cody Pomeray

It may be, Article 40.2.2° of Bunreacht na hEireann: No title of nobility or of honour may be accepted by any citizen except with the prior approval of the Government.

Tom Young

It is not a specific offence.

Fred Swanson

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silentrust

Fred Swanson wrote: »

So basically the government could do nothing if you accepted a knighthood?

You rebels made your bed last century, you can lie on it. ;-)

johnnyskeleton

My understanding is that within the Republic of Ireland any such titles cease to have legal effect and a person can be called by their human name in official documentation.

To be honest, anyone who gets a foreign honour is likely to have it approved by the government.

Marcusm

Interestingly, I assume that this does not apply to honours or titles which are not "accepted" but which apply by inheritance. I don't believe there is any act of "acceptance" with such titles. Mr Swanson can thus become Duc du Cygne on the death of the relevant antecedent.

LowKeyReturn

Sir Terry Wogan - Wikipedia (I know, I know...) have him down as British but I thought he was Irish?

Zaph

He has dual citizenship. He took out British citizenship in 2005.

LowKeyReturn

Would he had to have request permission for the KBE? Or is that why he asserted his British Citizenship. Do you need to request permission for the OBE / MBE?

johnnyskeleton

Marcusm wrote: »

Interestingly, I assume that this does not apply to honours or titles which are not "accepted" but which apply by inheritance. I don't believe there is any act of "acceptance" with such titles. Mr Swanson can thus become Duc du Cygne on the death of the relevant antecedent.

I think it applies to all titles. After all, you don't have to accept a hereditary title if you do not wish.

johnnyskeleton

LowKeyReturn wrote: »

Would he had to have request permission for the KBE? Or is that why he asserted his British Citizenship. Do you need to request permission for the OBE / MBE?

The effect of it not being accepted in advance by the Irish government is that they don't call you by that title. So if the government have approved his title he is Sir Terry in both jurisdictions. If not, he is Sir Terry in the UK and Mr. Wogan here.

Here's one for you, when the head of the UK state paid an official visit to the ROI in 2011, do her titles follow her here? More importantly, as she is not a UK citizen or subject, what legal basis did she have for coming here? Did she get a visa?

Zaph

As far as I know he already had an MBE or OBE, and both it and the KBE were awarded before he took out British citizenship, so I presume he had to request permission to accept them. Once he obtained his British citizenship he was able to use the title "Sir", but I don't know if that was the reason he decided to apply for it.

Marcusm

Zaph wrote: »

He has dual citizenship. He took out British citizenship in 2005.

I think Terry (and I always think of Jimmy Rabbitte when I say that word in my head) would have been born a British citizen as he was born pre 1948. Similar reasons given for Tony O'Reilly's actual knighthood whereas Bob Geldof has an honorary one.

Marcusm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I think it applies to all titles. After all, you don't have to accept a hereditary title if you do not wish.

Unfortunately, this is not the case; the uK had to pass an act of parliament (Peerage Act 1963) to allow this following lobbying from, amongst others, the prominent Labour politician Tony Benn who would lose his House of Commons seat on the death of his father. There is no process of acceptance but actual efforts must be made to renounce.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The effect of it not being accepted in advance by the Irish government is that they don't call you by that title. So if the government have approved his title he is Sir Terry in both jurisdictions. If not, he is Sir Terry in the UK and Mr. Wogan here.

Here's one for you, when the head of the UK state paid an official visit to the ROI in 2011, do her titles follow her here? More importantly, as she is not a UK citizen or subject, what legal basis did she have for coming here? Did she get a visa?

Sir Terry is a style only available to those who are UK citizens, foreign nationals only get to use the post nominal (e.g. KBE).

She would hardly have needed a visa once she established her Britishness; she was born a citizen and I'm sure an Irish solution would mean that her loss of citizenship on becoming sovereign would be ignored! She could always get in on the basis that she is the spouse of a Greek, ie EEA spouse rule!

Manach

In a historical context as per the 1937, this would seem to be the drafter's attempt to promote a sense of nationalism and lessen ties to the UK based on a reading of Prof. Keogh's work on the Irish constitution.
As for the Queen, AFAIR there was a court case that determined the offspring of a certain monarch (offhand George I) would always be able to claim British citizenship. It was an an anti-Jacobite act. It was held to be applicable to descentants of said King. Which meant in theory the last Kaiser was British.

Rascasse

Marcusm wrote: »

Sir Terry is a style only available to those who are UK citizens, foreign nationals only get to use the post nominal (e.g. KBE).

You don't need to be a UK citizen, just a citizen of a country where Queen Elizabeth is head of state. For example cricket fans will know many 'Sirs' like Gary Sobers and Viv Richards (West Indies), Don Bradman (Australia), Richard Hadlee (NZ), etc.

The exception being Canada, they have a similar rule to Ireland about its citizens accepting titles, but they actually enforce it. Conrad Black, later Baron Black (later still prisoner Black), had to give up his Canadian citizenship to receive his peerage.

Cody Pomeray

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's not quite that black and white. It is a constitutional offence to assume a knighthood without official permission. It would be possible for the Government to seek an injunctive order to prohibit an individual from carrying on under a style of nobility or honour, citing the constitutional provision on the assumption of these titles, and subsequently a criminal offence if you were to defy that order.

This is all extremely fanciful, but there is, elsewhere some limited legislative basis for a ban on titles:

Under Section 8 of the Aliens Act, 1935, it may be an offence for any adult foreigner, but not an Irishman, to carry on in business or in a trade using such a style, except under licnence. A hypothetical example might be a French writer who has been made a Chevalier/ Officier/ Commandeur for his services to the arts, and who has attempted to maintain his title in Ireland.

coylemj

When Terry Wogan was offered a knighthood, he was told that as an Irish citizen it would be an honorary title (similar to Bob Geldof) and he would receive a medal from a minister in the Foreign Office. When people living in Ireland receive honours under the British system, its handed to them in a ceremony in the British Embassy, there are lots of people living in Ireland who have been so honoured, usually for work they do with ex-service charities like the British Legion.

Back to Terry Wogan: he then asked 'well what if I took out British citizenship?' and the reply was that he would get a kosher knighthood from the Queen in Buck House and could call himself 'Sir Terry Wogan' so as has already been pointed out, he was able to get British citizenship because he was born before 1948 when we declared a Republic and that's why he's known as Sir Terry Wogan.

I suspect the motivation to take the full title came from his missus who probably fancied phoning for an appointment with the hairdresser along the lines of: 'this is Lady Wogan, can you put me down for highlights with Stephanie at 2 tomorrow?'