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Is triathlon too open?
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Carlos Shallow Underarm wrote: »And thats the problem right there, legislation around H&S in Ireland is such right now that you will be holed up in the clinker if you cause a death/serious injury and are found negligent. Can you really blame the organisers, they are probably being over cautious and i can understand why. Does not make it right though.
I agree - it doesn't make it right, which is why i think people who can't/won't swim should be actively discouraged from doing Tri's in the first place, until they are competent - won't happen though and therein lies the problem!0 -
RoseTinted wrote: »I have to say I have always found Tunney's infatuation with LCD very touching and I have always felt for Tunney when despite his outlandish predictions LCD has never stormed to even an Irish victory in his three appearances in Kona. Liam is a fine athlete but despite all the preparation and experience that Tunney alludes to, Liam was actually pulled from the swim a couple of years ago in Kenmare - just prior to heading out to Kona. Safety is an issue for everyone, even the experienced can have bad days.
.....don't really think that's an issue - don't know the situation you're referring to, but i assume that if he was pulled out, it was because he had a bad day/cramps/illness something similar - not because he couldn't swim! two completely different things, I'm sure you'll agree0 -
RoseTinted wrote: »I have to say I have always found Tunney's infatuation with LCD very touching and I have always felt for Tunney when despite his outlandish predictions LCD has never stormed to even an Irish victory in his three appearances in Kona. Liam is a fine athlete but despite all the preparation and experience that Tunney alludes to, Liam was actually pulled from the swim a couple of years ago in Kenmare - just prior to heading out to Kona. Safety is an issue for everyone, even the experienced can have bad days.
........as an aside, i think the fact that you picked your username to specifically comment on your feelings toward one poster is very very sad.0 -
RoseTinted wrote: »I have to say I have always found Tunney's infatuation with LCD very touching and I have always felt for Tunney when despite his outlandish predictions LCD has never stormed to even an Irish victory in his three appearances in Kona. Liam is a fine athlete but despite all the preparation and experience that Tunney alludes to, Liam was actually pulled from the swim a couple of years ago in Kenmare - just prior to heading out to Kona. Safety is an issue for everyone, even the experienced can have bad days.
I assume this was the year that the start was delayed and the tide started to go out? IIRC over 50% of the field were pulled from the swim?0 -
....for the life of me don't understand why some people, who either can't swim, won't put in sufficient practice to swim or don't even like swimming enter Triathlons - it's in my opinion for one reason - to say they've "done" a Tri!
as said earlier, swimming makes up 33% of the event - if you're not able to do that 33%, do something else!
there are lots of running/cycling/duathlon/adventure races in this county lots and lots of them!!...........that don't require any swimming, so why not do these?
also, there's nothing "elitist" about suggesting that people that are rubbish swimmers, should maybe spend a few more months in the pool before thinking about going open water! ...........basic common sense surely??
Could you direct me to where the last point is posted as i would be interested in commenting on it?
Agree with all your other points.0 -
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Are there more bad swimmers now than 10 years ago as a % of competitors?
Is there more fear of being sued or prosecuted for negligence?
Rule changes restricting entry Could fix the first issue but won't have any effect on the second.
Only viable option I see is strict enforcement of cut off times and a gradual reduction of those times as it effects both issues.0 -
ShineyShiney wrote: »Are there more bad swimmers now than 10 years ago as a % of competitors?
Is there more fear of being sued or prosecuted for negligence?
Rule changes restricting entry Could fix the first issue but won't have any effect on the second.
Only viable option I see is strict enforcement of cut off times and a gradual reduction of those times as it effects both issues.
Not really the issue.
As a result of the attraction of 'doing' a triathlon there are more people doing races on ODL, which in itself is not a problem, but they are generally not members of clubs and as a result have missed out on the mentoring systems which, usually, are aparent in the club situation.
Historically the majority of triathletes in Ireland would have been members of a club so there is a clear divide in people who have learned the ropes of OW swimming and cycling in particular.
The amount of people you would see in races that are underprepared has increased, along side this is a trend to just do enough to get by in the OW swim. At the moment it is very easy to skate through race registration ticking a box that you have done the required minimum swim prior to the event and that you have read and understand the rules of triathlon racing.
It is painfully clear in any race that the number of people who have no idea or concept of the rules is on the rise.
There needs to be a means of creating a fun environment for all that is safe and if that requires a physical divide between registered club member triathletes and ODL athletes then that is what must be done.
& before you all shout 'tri-elite', remember that in all sports there is a divide.
Do you think the local 5 aside footballer or club hurler can just go to AVIVA or Croke Park and play with the big boys / girls? Not a chance, golf, tennis, darts, athletics everything has a tiered structure with divisions based on experience and proven abililty.0 -
Is there other reasons a race director would cancel a swim apart from safety?
Don't think I have ever come across a swim shortened or canceled due to too many non club entrants.
Perhaps I'm missing the point but how could health and safety or number of poor swimmers not be the point?
With reference to club members In my limited experience lots of club members are poor or average swimmers when it comes to ow swimming.0 -
ShineyShiney wrote: »Is there other reasons a race director would cancel a swim apart from safety?
Don't think I have ever come across a swim shortened or canceled due to too many non club entrants.
Perhaps I'm missing the point but how could health and safety or number of poor swimmers not be the point?
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This is a good point: the debate seems to be somewhat confused - its now all about the swim rather than the bike or run. Are we concerned about poor swimmers or slow swimmers?
I'm a strong as distinct from fast swimmer - I will always be in the top half of the field in any Irish event (I have no experience abroad so can't comment) and much higher if the conditions are challenging. I am annoyed to put mildly when a swim leg is cancelled on the basis of conditions that I would normally train in. I would consider it an elitist attitude to suggest I shouldn't enter a race because I'm not fast enough0 -
ShineyShiney wrote: »Is there other reasons a race director would cancel a swim apart from safety?
Safety and ITU rules govern the decisions made by race directors. Almost every reason I would think of falls under the umbrella of 'safety'. Maybe one of the TO's around here might elaborate this point.ShineyShiney wrote: »Don't think I have ever come across a swim shortened or canceled due to too many non club entrants.
Don't think anyone has said or inferred this point ^ShineyShiney wrote: »Perhaps I'm missing the point but how could health and safety or number of poor swimmers not be the point?
Health and safety is the point. Poor swimmers, poor bikers are part of the problem. This is not exclusively a swimming issue. It is not exclusively an issue with slow or poor swimmers.
It is an issue with inexperienced, underprepared and untrained people taking to the water & roads with the intention of ticking the box of 'I'm a triathlete'.ShineyShiney wrote: »With reference to club members In my limited experience lots of club members are poor or average swimmers when it comes to ow swimming.
Very true. I am an average swimmer. BUT I am an experienced average swimmer who has been guided by a club in the risks inherent and safety measures available to me when I swim.
I have practised my swim in a group situation and know what I am comfortable with. I know through experience not to start at the front of the pack, getting swum over is not nice.
It never ceases to amaze / flabbergast me when I hear people going for solo sea swims in out of the way areas. I know what my limitations are through experience, I don't wait to find out in the middle of a race that I am not able for this.0 -
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amphkingwest wrote: »Not really the issue.
As a result of the attraction of 'doing' a triathlon there are more people doing races on ODL, which in itself is not a problem, but they are generally not members of clubs and as a result have missed out on the mentoring systems which, usually, are aparent in the club situation.
Historically the majority of triathletes in Ireland would have been members of a club so there is a clear divide in people who have learned the ropes of OW swimming and cycling in particular.
The amount of people you would see in races that are underprepared has increased, along side this is a trend to just do enough to get by in the OW swim. At the moment it is very easy to skate through race registration ticking a box that you have done the required minimum swim prior to the event and that you have read and understand the rules of triathlon racing.
It is painfully clear in any race that the number of people who have no idea or concept of the rules is on the rise.
There needs to be a means of creating a fun environment for all that is safe and if that requires a physical divide between registered club member triathletes and ODL athletes then that is what must be done.
& before you all shout 'tri-elite', remember that in all sports there is a divide.
Do you think the local 5 aside footballer or club hurler can just go to AVIVA or Croke Park and play with the big boys / girls? Not a chance, golf, tennis, darts, athletics everything has a tiered structure with divisions based on experience and proven abililty.
this is probably the best suggestion so far, the only other alternative would be a novice wave, and as a not to serious midpack odl, I'd be much happier trying to win against the rookie, it would be even better if there where prizes like free race entries.0 -
amphkingwest wrote: »Not really the issue.
As a result of the attraction of 'doing' a triathlon there are more people doing races on ODL, which in itself is not a problem, but they are generally not members of clubs and as a result have missed out on the mentoring systems which, usually, are aparent in the club situation.
Historically the majority of triathletes in Ireland would have been members of a club so there is a clear divide in people who have learned the ropes of OW swimming and cycling in particular.
The amount of people you would see in races that are underprepared has increased, along side this is a trend to just do enough to get by in the OW swim. At the moment it is very easy to skate through race registration ticking a box that you have done the required minimum swim prior to the event and that you have read and understand the rules of triathlon racing.
It is painfully clear in any race that the number of people who have no idea or concept of the rules is on the rise.
There needs to be a means of creating a fun environment for all that is safe and if that requires a physical divide between registered club member triathletes and ODL athletes then that is what must be done.
^^^^^^^
You asked where it was implied that that races were being canceled due to non club swimmers, does this section above by you not imply that registered club member triathletes are not the issue but ODL athletes are.
& before you all shout 'tri-elite', remember that in all sports there is a divide.
I have no problem with elite sports tri or otherwise, but surely one of the major selling points of triathlon is that the ag'er gets to run the same race as Chrissy Wellington or macca or whoever it is that you look up to in the sport as opposed to almost any other sport where you chance of competing with Nadal or messi or wiggins are nil.
I do however have a problem with an elitist attitude where terms like box ticker, fat and slow are used as none of those words preclude an athlete from becoming a contender. Basically IMO today's box ticker could be next seasons Ns champ or today's slow swimmer could be an AG winner next year or two or three years down the line.
Do you think the local 5 aside footballer or club hurler can just go to AVIVA or Croke Park and play with the big boys / girls? Not a chance, golf, tennis, darts, athletics everything has a tiered structure with divisions based on experience and proven abililty.
Perhaps more single distance olympic and longer events would put off poorer swimmers but can that work financially for event organizers.0 -
ShineyShiney wrote: »Perhaps more single distance olympic and longer events would put off poorer swimmers but can that work financially for event organizers.
Not sure if you are deliberately focusing on the 'swim' as being the issue.
Poor swimmers are not the problem with triathlon. The swim leg is the most obvious place to spot an underprepared athlete, but it is not the only place.0 -
amphkingwest wrote: »Not sure if you are deliberately focusing on the 'swim' as being the issue.
Poor swimmers are not the problem with triathlon. The swim leg is the most obvious place to spot an underprepared athlete, but it is not the only place.
What do people think? Is triathlon too open to people now and as a result are race organisers cutting distances, cancelling swims too easily etc..?
^^^
I am deliberately focusing on the swim because as you see from the quote above taken from the op that is the subject.
I believe that race organizers are cutting distances and cancelling swims due to increased fear of h&s grievances and not due to the standard of swimmer because at the time of the call they have very little information to base a call on the standard of every swimmer but they are fairly certain that a death or serious injury will result in serious scrutiny of the procedures to ensure competitor safety.
Is tri too open? Maybe but any actions to close it off will not necessarily change the information available to rd's when faced with a slight swell. They will continue to make the judgement call based on a Worst case scenario and protection of themselves, the legally liable person.
Time for a swim:-)0 -
From Triathlon Ireland regarding the decision by Lough Neagh to reduce their Olympic race (Race of the Year in the past and NS standard) to a Sprint and Super Sprint event...to attract as many locals as possible to the super sprint race, particularly those from local sporting clubs who want a new fun challenge away from their usual sport of choice.0
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Is this the same reason why the olympic in athlone was cancelled i wonder?0
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I assume this was the year that the start was delayed and the tide started to go out? IIRC over 50% of the field were pulled from the swim?
Over 50%?? Not so sure about that having been there that year.
Anyway, if weaker swimmers are to be put in a specific wave or made do a duathlon format when the conditons are rough, what do you do when water temps are so low that even the best (leanest) athletes have to pull out cos they cant feel their fingers?? These are athletes that have been in the sport for years and race at the pointy end of the field week in, week out?0 -
Is this the same reason why the olympic in athlone was cancelled i wonder?I heard it was because of road closure issues.
It appears to be space constraints in transition that is the problem.
On cancelling the standard distance race they were encouraging people to move either to the sprint distance or step up to the shadowman (middle distance at minimum)0 -
There's a new air ambulance based in the barracks where the old transition was, seems like the pitch beside it wasn't an option either.
Also, the elite junior race is on sunday so they have to set up the new transition area overnight and need the time on saturday to kick it off and build it up, blue carpets/gantrys etc.0 -
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...what do you do when water temps are so low that even the best (leanest) athletes have to pull out cos they cant feel their fingers?? These are athletes that have been in the sport for years and race at the pointy end of the field week in, week out?
Then you cancel the swim for them as well. I don't think anybody as suggested that the swim should always go ahead. Different thresholds for different abilities (based on some sort of classification).0 -
Unregistered. wrote: »Then you cancel the swim for them as well. I don't think anybody as suggested that the swim should always go ahead. Different thresholds for different abilities (based on some sort of classification).
And do we let the polar bear, who's slow as bedamned but has wintered very well indeed, swim away till his hearts content? Should TO's conduct skinfold tests on people if the water is below a certain temperature and prevent the fastest (usually skinniest) triathletes from swimming because they've insuffiiet blubber?
I think one way or another in these marginal cases you're gonna have one grouping unhappy. What if it's unseasonally warm, high 20's with high humidity, do we stop people from running unless they can break 40 mins for 10k?0 -
And do we let the polar bear, who's slow as bedamned but has wintered very well indeed, swim away till his hearts content? Should TO's conduct skinfold tests on people if the water is below a certain temperature and prevent the fastest (usually skinniest) triathletes from swimming because they've insuffiiet blubber?
No! What utter tripe! There will be cases where the swim just won't go ahead. The system we have now bases the decision on anybody who could be racing. From complete newbies, to the very experienced.
There's no way to say on the day to decided that it's OK for the experienced athletes to swim, and for the inexperienced to have a reduced swim or an alternative. With a system where everyone's licence permits them to race in a certain category,then it can be done. People work their way from one category to the next. That's how it is done in other sports.0 -
Unregistered. wrote: »No! What utter tripe! There will be cases where the swim just won't go ahead. The system we have now bases the decision on anybody who could be racing. From complete newbies, to the very experienced.
There's no way to say on the day to decided that it's OK for the experienced athletes to swim, and for the inexperienced to have a reduced swim or an alternative. With a system where everyone's licence permits them to race in a certain category,then it can be done. People work their way from one category to the next. That's how it is done in other sports.
How is that utter tripe? Our Michelin Man lookalike has honed his ability to swim in cold water (by having a terrible diet most likely) and now you're taking away his advantage because the stick insects cant handle the cold. Thats a tad unfair isn't it? So we just want the swim to go ahead in choppy water that the experienced people can handle, but drop the temps a little and it would be crazy to go ahead with a full race?
How would this license system reflect the fact that the aforementioned swimmer can handle the cold? Do you just assume that after 2 years or 10 races that you can handle all/most conditions? How many of the fastest (generally skinniest) triathletes in Collinstown would have flipped their lid if they were told that they didn't have enough body fat to handle the 1.9k swim.
"Sorry lads, ye can have yer own little shortened triathlon but you wont be elligile to be called national middle distance champion and you wont get National Series points either".0 -
How is that utter tripe? Our Michelin Man lookalike has honed his ability to swim in cold water (by having a terrible diet most likely) and now you're taking away his advantage because the stick insects cant handle the cold. Thats a tad unfair isn't it? So we just want the swim to go ahead in choppy water that the experienced people can handle, but drop the temps a little and it would be crazy to go ahead with a full race?
How would this license system reflect the fact that the aforementioned swimmer can handle the cold? Do you just assume that after 2 years or 10 races that you can handle all/most conditions? How many of the fastest (generally skinniest) triathletes in Collinstown would have flipped their lid if they were told that they didn't have enough body fat to handle the 1.9k swim.
"Sorry lads, ye can have yer own little shortened triathlon but you wont be elligile to be called national middle distance champion and you wont get National Series points either".
There are rules on the minimum temperatures that swims can proceed at. This is a whole different topic that's been done to the max on another thread.
It doesn't matter how fat or skinny you are, if the temps are below regulations, a swim will just not go ahead even if Louis Pugh is lined up. This has absolutley nothing to do with whether an athlete is experienced or inexperienced.
You also have to remember in choppy water it is not just swimmers that are at risk. There are people in boats, on kayaks etc that are also at risk.0 -
amphkingwest wrote: »There are rules on the minimum temperatures that swims can proceed at. This is a whole different topic that's been done to the max on another thread.
It doesn't matter how fat or skinny you are, if the temps are below regulations, a swim will just not go ahead even if Louis Pugh is lined up. This has absolutley nothing to do with whether an athlete is experienced or inexperienced.
You also have to remember in choppy water it is not just swimmers that are at risk. There are people in boats, on kayaks etc that are also at risk.
Regulations kick in do they? Super. And if the swell is just too high or if the river is moving too fast(Kenmare) shouldn't regulations kick in there too? The problem is the regulation in this regard, i suspect, is more subjective than dipping a thermometer in the water. The TO looks at the sea or maybe goes out in a boat and experiences the swell and decides that it's just too much.
Now, are those TO's and referees all greenhorns that have never done a triathlon or are they experienced racers that have decided to give something back to their sport by volunteering to work for the day rather than race? In orher words, do they know what they're doing? I'd say, for the most part, yes they do.
It sounds to me like some strong swimmers who are mediocre bikers/runners are peeved that their advantage is being taken away from them. This isnt about safety at all, is it folks.0 -
It sounds to me like some strong swimmers who are mediocre bikers/runners are peeved that their advantage is being taken away from them. This isnt about safety at all, is it folks.
I don't think this is the issue at all - a strong swimmer who can't ride/run well is never going to do well in a Triathlon, as the distance, especially on the bike section will mean that they will get passed by the better overall athletes pretty quickly!0 -
It sounds to me like some strong swimmers who are mediocre bikers/runners are peeved that their advantage is being taken away from them. This isnt about safety at all, is it folks.
Or people who have paid their money, put in the required training and traveled long distance to an event are pissed off with a swim that has been shortened to keep under-prepared people safe.0 -
Or people who have paid their money, put in the required training and traveled long distance to an event are pissed off with a swim that has been shortened to keep under-prepared people safe.
Ok then, on the subject of preparedness, what of our polar bear swimmer who swims at the Forty Foot year round in his budgie smugglers. He's extremely well prepared for a cold swim but if the thermometer is .5 of a degree too cold for the rulebook he cant swim. He'd kick my ass in that situation cos he'd get out of the water refreshed and ready to rock whereas i'd need half an hour to feel my fingers again. He's not given the chance though. It was dismissed out of hand above by Amphibiankingwest that if it's too cold for the rulebook, then it's just too cold, end of story. Why are temperature issues so clean cut, while rough/fast water conditions are deemed something that can be prepared for?0 -
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Ok then, on the subject of preparedness, what of our polar bear swimmer who swims at the Forty Foot year round in his budgie smugglers. He's extremely well prepared for a cold swim but if the thermometer is .5 of a degree too cold for the rulebook he cant swim. He'd kick my ass in that situation cos he'd get out of the water refreshed and ready to rock whereas i'd need half an hour to feel my fingers again. He's not given the chance though. It was dismissed out of hand above by Amphibiankingwest that if it's too cold for the rulebook, then it's just too cold, end of story. Why are temperature issues so clean cut, while rough/fast water conditions are deemed something that can be prepared for?
I don't make the ITU rules.
It doesn't matter who you are or how you are built, regarding water temperature at any point below 15° your core temperature will drop. That is why there are strict limits on the temperatures of the water and the duration of immersion in the same water.
Your polar bear example will be more conditioned to swimming in cold water and able to tolerate the cold better / recover quicker than your average triathlete but his / her physiology is susceptable to the exact same conditions of lowering core temperature (bar one or two exceptions) and risk of hypothermia.
Hypothermia coming out of the water is not the issue. It is the continuing development of hypothermia (started in the water) through the bike course which puts people at risk.
Regarding your second point there are also guidelines on the conditions, current, wind speed and air temperatures which TO's have to work to.0
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