Extermination through sterilisation - the solution to "skangerism"

steddyeddy

You see the problem I have with some of the views in this thread is they don't seem to be aimed at career criminals. Several people are juding people who have a certain "look" as worthy of extermination.

Handsome Bob

Seachmall wrote: »

Well how many people does it need to rehabilitate to be considered working?

100%? 90%? 80%? 40%?

You can't measure the success of rehabilitation centres in percentages.

For one, how do you measure success? If I use addiction services as an example, would you define success as someone completing their programme? Or if they stay sober/clean for 6 months to a year?

What about someone who stays clean/sober for 2 years+ but then suffers a relapse? Would you deem that as a failure of the rehabilitation programme?

WinnyThePoo

old hippy

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Natural selection can only take you so far until you get to a point where the certain bad elements need to be removed for the good of society in general.

I think you and your ilk need to be monitored and infiltrated to stop the spread of your facist ideas.

Your opinions certainly don't represent the "good of society", in fact, you and your cohorts are coming across as the real bad elements in this discussion.

allibastor

kylith wrote: »

In theory eugenics is a good idea... In theory.

it did make kahn in star trek, and look how well he turned out

Grand Moff Tarkin

old hippy wrote: »

I think you and your ilk need to be monitored and infiltrated to stop the spread of your facist ideas.

Your opinions certainly don't represent the "good of society", in fact, you and your cohorts are coming across as the real bad elements in this discussion.

Sorry but I do believe my views do represent what is good for Irish society. As an example we have scumbags attacking emergency service workers and hospital staff and they get away with it without so much as a slap on the wrist. My own view is that people like that will never make an effort to better themselves or society so they should be removed from the gene pool by any and all means. The time for pussyfooting about is well past and people need to open their eyes to that fact.

Reekwind

SeanW wrote: »

And again, I'm not saying sterilise these people per-se, but rather I want those dogmatically opposed to the idea to propose something that deals with the scumbag problem. An alternative.

An alternative to what? The death of society through "skangerism"? 'Race suicide'? I mean, to hear you and the likes talking, the whole island is about to be overrun by a whole horde of crazed recidivists

There is no problem here that cannot be handled by existing judicial frameworks. Certainly there is no justification for mass sterilisation on the basis that there is a 'skanger gene'

AlekSmart

Reekwind wrote: »

An alternative to what? The death of society through "skangerism"? 'Race suicide'? I mean, to hear you and the likes talking, the whole island is about to be overrun by a whole horde of crazed recidivists

There is no problem here that cannot be handled by existing judicial frameworks. Certainly there is no justification for mass sterilisation on the basis that there is a 'skanger gene'

It's interesting that Reekwind uses the term recidivist,which I believe is somewhat more accurate than "Skanger" as a description for the likes of these....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rescuers-are-attacked-while-trying-to-save-drowning-man-29334522.html

From the various accounts at the scene of the drowning and at the Hospital,this was a substantial group of people,not just a few knuckle-draggers.

I would suggest to Reekwind,that had they been either a member of the responders to this man's difficulties or had they been a member of hospital staff,then yes,your own little Island of existance was overrun by recidivists.

I remain significantly unsure that any of our "existing Judicial Frameworks" are even capable of recognising the levels of teror these missing-links are capable of inflicting on innocent people,let alone "handling it.

Reekwind

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would suggest to Reekwind,that had they been either a member of the responders to this man's difficulties or had they been a member of hospital staff,then yes,your own little Island of existance was overrun by recidivists

I was once ripped off by a taxi driver. Clearly all taxi drivers must be rounded into camps and worked to death, right?

And, for the record, my use of the term 'recidivist' was in response to SeanW's "scumbags getting more violent after 20, 50, 100 or more convictions" (which is laughable in itself). Unless I've missed something, there's nothing in that article that you linked to suggesting that the youths in question were recidivist

I remain significantly unsure that any of our "existing Judicial Frameworks" are even capable of recognising the levels of teror these missing-links are capable of inflicting on innocent people,let alone "handling it.

Well that's because your idea of an adequate response is to sterlise people. I'd hazard that most people (going on the assumption that this thread is not indicative of popular opinion, else we'd all be dressing in brown shirts and saluting Enda) are quite happy with the notion of fitting the punishment to the crime

But then the whole notion that vast tracks of this island are being terrorised on a daily basis by a network of evolutionary throwbacks while the State turns a blind eye is in itself absurd

AlekSmart

Handsome Bob wrote: »

Not sure how you can make such a defacto statement like that. It clearly does work for some people, maybe for not as many as you'd like mind.

Perhaps the greatest failing lies in the Irish interpretation of Rehabilitation as a concept.

Even a casual leaf through Court Reports will reveal a shockingly numerous amount of repeat offenders,some of a surprisingly young age.

Further probing will reveal that these offenders will generally have had significant interaction with the Dept of Justice's Probation and Welfare services.

Now,given that the cost of providing these services continues to escalate,and that these costs are largely funded by the taxes of law abiding,peaceful non-criminally inclined citizens who comprise the fodder for the recidivists,the questioning of the Rehabilitation principle is pretty much understandable.

Reading of semi-deranged violent young people rocking up to a Judge on their 50th charge,and yet again being soft-touched following the pleading of a silver-tongued Barrister (Paid for most likely,also by the victim) is simply destroying any possibility of widespread understanding or acceptance of the Rehabilitation principle.

A significant chunk of surly young "entitled" people have managed to successfully checkmate our systems of administering justice.

Unfortunately,dragging these systems back into any form of fitness for purpose now entails some of the long-term return clients now being forcibly ejected from the system...and that brings with it some extra risks.

However,if we prefer to deny the existence of the problem then any solution,final or otherwise,will never materialize.

AlekSmart

Reekwind wrote: »

I was once ripped off by a taxi driver. Clearly all taxi drivers must be rounded into camps and worked to death, right?

No,not really,but devising some method of identifying and seperating those Taxi Drivers readily prepared to gouge customers,allows at least some chance of reducing the numbers of gouging Taxi Drivers.
The result is good for both Customers AND those Taxi Drivers who choose not to go-native.

And, for the record, my use of the term 'recidivist' was in response to SeanW's "scumbags getting more violent after 20, 50, 100 or more convictions" (which is laughable in itself). Unless I've missed something, there's nothing in that article that you linked to suggesting that the youths in question were recidivist

I'm unsure here as to whether your problem is with the actual notion of the escalation of criminality levels as the inability of the State to successfully punish it becomes apparent,or simply with people who are'nt quite so prepared to excuse thuggery of itself ?

Reading from the article....

"Members came under attack at the scene – there were a lot of drunken people there who have previous criminal issues and they attacked the crews as they tried to save the man.

...I would be confident that,if or when,the incidents come to Court we will,yet again,see an all too familiar scenario.

Well that's because your idea of an adequate response is to sterlise people. I'd hazard that most people (going on the assumption that this thread is not indicative of popular opinion, else we'd all be dressing in brown shirts and saluting Enda) are quite happy with the notion of fitting the punishment to the crime

But then the whole notion that vast tracks of this island are being terrorised on a daily basis by a network of evolutionary throwbacks while the State turns a blind eye is in itself absurd

Sadly I can't quite fit your pre-formed social template,as I don't actually see forced sterilization as feasible or desirable.

However,in the absence of any successful,affordable and easily administered responses,the notion of voluntary non-reproduction might well be worth mulling over.

Your description of Evolutionary Throwbacks,roaming unchallenged across vast-tracks of the land,is,for those unlucky enough to live in some of those targeted areas,spot-on-the-money accurate.

Sadly however,an 80 year old victim,living alone will receive far less assistance from the State than their attacker will upon conviction.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/two-pensioner-brothers-attacked-by-thugs-at-home-26862645.html

In your preferred societal structure is there a limit,self imposed or otherwise,that could be deemed to act as a trigger for punishment as opposed to rehabilitation ?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/brothers-jailed-for-27-years-for-the-murder-of-elderly-man-60422.html

The court heard that John Doyle was previously convicted of stabbing an 84-year-old man to death in Dublin in 1984. He was also convicted of the burglary of an elderly couple in England - an offence that happened after the killing of Mr Logan.

Christopher Doyle also has lengthy convictions for violent crimes, including that of beating an elderly spinster after he broke into the bedroom of her home in England.

Also possibly of some relevance to the thread is this...

The court heard that both defendants were heroin users. Between them, they have 13 children.

Quite obviously I'm not at one with Reekwind on any of this,however neither do I fully accept Sterilization as being any sort of "Solution"...but I sure don't regard the present facilitation of recidivism as any better !

Handsome Bob

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps the greatest failing lies in the Irish interpretation of Rehabilitation as a concept.

Even a casual leaf through Court Reports will reveal a shockingly numerous amount of repeat offenders,some of a surprisingly young age.

Further probing will reveal that these offenders will generally have had significant interaction with the Dept of Justice's Probation and Welfare services.

Now,given that the cost of providing these services continues to escalate,and that these costs are largely funded by the taxes of law abiding,peaceful non-criminally inclined citizens who comprise the fodder for the recidivists,the questioning of the Rehabilitation principle is pretty much understandable.

Reading of semi-deranged violent young people rocking up to a Judge on their 50th charge,and yet again being soft-touched following the pleading of a silver-tongued Barrister (Paid for most likely,also by the victim) is simply destroying any possibility of widespread understanding or acceptance of the Rehabilitation principle.

A significant chunk of surly young "entitled" people have managed to successfully checkmate our systems of administering justice.

Unfortunately,dragging these systems back into any form of fitness for purpose now entails some of the long-term return clients now being forcibly ejected from the system...and that brings with it some extra risks.

However,if we prefer to deny the existence of the problem then any solution,final or otherwise,will never materialize.

You are right, there are many repeat offenders unfortunately. In terms of rehab, it's not out of the ordinary for someone to have gone through the process 6 or 7 times before they get it right (and even then there's no guarantee that someone will stay sober/clean/on the straight and narrow for the rest of their life).

scamalert

reminds me one of a time in court,where this scum was being charged for robbing woman's purse while driving by in a car,and dragging her couple feet trough concrete.So judge looks at guys criminal record and he had over 100 offenses ($hit you not) at age of 25 :cool:
Clearly law system nor some rehab centers ,dont work at all in this country.Where such trash with triple number offenses still walk on the streets,and yet for the crime they do its year or two in prison before they get skills to commit fatal crimes.

karma_

scamalert wrote: »

reminds me one of a time in court,where this scum was being charged for robbing woman's purse while driving by in a car,and dragging her couple feet trough concrete.So judge looks at guys criminal record and he had over 100 offenses ($hit you not) at age of 25 :cool:
Clearly law system nor some rehab centers ,dont work at all in this country.Where such trash with triple number offenses still walk on the streets,and yet for the crime they do its year or two in prison before they get skills to commit fatal crimes.

Let's approach this logically for a second.

You say the Laws are not working... fine not too controversial an opinion to harbour.

Here's a simple solution, let's fix the damn laws instead of drawing up plans for a mass sterilisation/final solution.

Holy fúck like, the amount of posters who seemingly back this notion is absolutely fúcking terrifying.

old hippy

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Sorry but I do believe my views do represent what is good for Irish society. As an example we have scumbags attacking emergency service workers and hospital staff and they get away with it without so much as a slap on the wrist. My own view is that people like that will never make an effort to better themselves or society so they should be removed from the gene pool by any and all means. The time for pussyfooting about is well past and people need to open their eyes to that fact.

I'm telling you, you don't represent Irish society with that view. Germany in the 30s, perhaps but not in this day and age.

You have opened my eyes (and others, I'm sure) as to the fact that there are some people with very dangerous views at large. We shall be keeping an eye on you, fear not.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps the (.......) materialize.

There is no serious rehabilitation programme in this country and never has been. This has been pointed out time and time again. Perhaps educating yourself with the basics might be in order...

Nodin

allibastor wrote: »

it did make kahn in star trek, and look how well he turned out

Ended up playing Sherlock Holmes on the beeb apparently.

VinLieger

How about bringing back chain gangs? Making them dig ditches on roads pick up trash etc?

Nodin

VinLieger wrote: »

How about bringing back chain gangs? Making them dig ditches on roads pick up trash etc?

...and thereby put the ditchdiggers and trash picker-uppers out of a job.

donegal.

did that mad whore in india not try mass sterilization ? can't remember the details, how did it turn out ?

Grand Moff Tarkin

old hippy wrote: »

I'm telling you, you don't represent Irish society with that view. Germany in the 30s, perhaps but not in this day and age.

You have opened my eyes (and others, I'm sure) as to the fact that there are some people with very dangerous views at large. We shall be keeping an eye on you, fear not.

Don't worry once we are in power I will make sure we come for you and your ilk last. :D

SeanW

Reekwind wrote:

But then the whole notion that vast tracks of this island are being terrorised on a daily basis by a network of evolutionary throwbacks while the State turns a blind eye is in itself absurd

Only it's not absurd, in many towns and cities it's very real.

karma_ wrote: »

Let's approach this logically for a second.

You say the Laws are not working... fine not too controversial an opinion to harbour.

Here's a simple solution, let's fix the damn laws instead of drawing up plans for a mass sterilisation/final solution.

Great idea; lets have laws - and enforcement - that protect decent people. We could:

1. Have an X strikes system that gives people plenty of chances to reform before giving up and changing to the focus to protecting civilisation from a routine criminal.
2. Enforce laws severely, bringing out the army if an area is so problematic that the guards are unable to patrol it (Moyross/Southill in Limerick, Broombridge/Finglas in Dublin are two places that come to mind)

Problem is that 1) can't happen because leftists would cry blue murder at the thought of locking someone up and throwing away the key no matter how much of a scumbag a person is and 2) Enforcing the law would be even more difficult than today with people like old_hippy complaining about Gardai defending themselves against assault. 3) You would still have heroin junkies and idle criminals popping out one kid after another at sometimes incredible rates, all most likely to be dragged up to carry on daddy's traditions. Laying down new policies to prevent this would be difficult.

So you see, primarily because of the bleeding-heart left, "fixing the law" won't work. That's why people are discussing more ... permanent ... solutions.

Holy fúck like, the amount of posters who seemingly back this notion is absolutely fúcking terrifying.

Again, if there were any indication that scumbags could be dealt with, it wouldn't be being discussed.

old hippy

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Don't worry once we are in power I will make sure we come for you and your ilk last. :D

I read your contributions to this rather terrifying thread and I think of this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

Where would you start, out of curiosity? The inner cities? The unemployment black spots? The flats? Council houses? Less than salubrious suburbs and satellite towns?

And where would you finish your pogrom/purge?

Nodin

old hippy wrote: »

I read your contributions to this rather terrifying thread and I think of this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

Where would you start, out of curiosity? The inner cities? The unemployment black spots? The flats? Council houses? Less than salubrious suburbs and satellite towns?

And where would you finish your pogrom/purge?

The far right will never be in a position to come for anything in this state. Except to the door to get their Chinese takeaway delivery.

old hippy

Nodin wrote: »

The far right will never be in a position to come for anything in this state. Except to the door to get their Chinese takeaway delivery.

I bloody hope so, a chara. I still don't believe we should be complacent, mind. All joshing aside, I'm pretty sure there's a few here who seriously believe the stuff they are vomiting out

Grand Moff Tarkin

old hippy wrote: »

I read your contributions to this rather terrifying thread and I think of this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

Where would you start, out of curiosity? The inner cities? The unemployment black spots? The flats? Council houses? Less than salubrious suburbs and satellite towns?

And where would you finish your pogrom/purge?

I am pulling your leg old bean. You really do need to stop taking this place so serious at time.

I will admit there is an issue with the amount of scumbags on the streets there are some roads I would not go down to deal with them.

Nodin

old hippy wrote: »

I bloody hope so, a chara. I still don't believe we should be complacent, mind. All joshing aside, I'm pretty sure there's a few here who seriously believe the stuff they are vomiting out

They can believe it all they want. They can even put on the rubber SS uniform and imagine carrying it out. That's all it will ever amount to though. They've no tradition behind them at all and no numbers.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

There is no serious rehabilitation programme in this country and never has been. This has been pointed out time and time again. Perhaps educating yourself with the basics might be in order...

I'd suggest that you are wrong here,but perhaps you know that anyway.

The definition of "Serious" is what your contention depends upon.

No doubt the poor results of what rehabilitative programmes we do have are down to those who provide them,with no fault being attributed to those who simply use the availability of these programmes as a means of securing a "softer" sentence.

Pointing things out time and time again,as you say,does not in any way change the reality that large numbers of people are concerned about the frivolous lack of regard for the rights of non-criminally inclined folks,something which is reinforced on a regular basis by pithy coments like this....

Perhaps educating yourself with the basics might be in order

People are educating themselves in the basics,just different ones to your prefered options,however,what appears to concern some is that this process is not resulting in the anticipated expansion of Nirvana,as gaeilge....;)

AlekSmart

donegal. wrote: »

did that mad whore in india not try mass sterilization ? can't remember the details, how did it turn out ?

I think they ran out of transistor radio's,but the passage of time allows for new inducements...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13982031

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'd suggest that you are wrong here......

You can suggest all you want, though I'd prefer it delivered in a more concise manner.

You can start educating yourself in the meantime.
http://irishcriminologyresearchnetwork.wordpress.com/2012/08/20/prison-policy-in-ireland-rehabilitation-research-reform-an-on-line-lecture/

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

You can suggest all you want, though I'd prefer it delivered in a more concise manner.

You can start educating yourself in the meantime.
http://irishcriminologyresearchnetwork.wordpress.com/2012/08/20/prison-policy-in-ireland-rehabilitation-research-reform-an-on-line-lecture/

Sorry old boy,but you'll get it in whatever manner I find stimulates my juices at the time...If it's too much for you,then all I can suggest is to walk-on-by....I certainly won't take offence

As for the education dig,again,I'll dip in and out of a wide range of research,not all of which will adhere to your specific (and,dare I say,somewhat narrow) viewpoint.

I freely admit to glazing over somewhat when i come across headings like this,

The Significance of the Prison in Irish Nationalist Culture

I would hope that Prison,and being despatched into one,would indeed be significant in ANY culture.

The Benefit of Personal Experience and Personal Study: Prisoners and the Politics of Enfranchisement

I have no doubt that these papers are all well read and of no litle significance to those who elevate themselves to bemusedly look down upon the rabble below.

I'm happy enough to muck around in the bear-pit meself,listening to the rabble

old hippy

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

I am pulling your leg old bean. You really do need to stop taking this place so serious at time.

I will admit there is an issue with the amount of scumbags on the streets there are some roads I would not go down to deal with them.

So, you're not really Khan Noonian Singh, then. Just having a larf. Hardly Swiftian, though.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Sorry old boy.................listening to the rabble

Its been said that educating the uneducated is a pleasure but attempting to educate the wilfully ignorant a punishment. Selective reading is the hallmark of the latter group.

The lecture is an insightful overview of the development of rehabilitation in Irish penal planning. Interestingly, during the first decades
of the Free State the slow and often unchanging nature of Irish penal
policy is highlighted; this is despite there being bursts of enthusiasm for
rehabilitation as an ideal. This stasis, as Dr Rogan describes it, remained
until the early 1960s, when a new energetic Minister for Justice was appointed. In this new role Charles Haughey put rehabilitation on the penal policy agenda; making this a relatively exciting time for Irish penal policy.
During the 1980s, Dr Rogan states, the concept of rehabilitation was
reduced to an expensive luxury which was beyond the limited budgets of the Dept. of Justice. However, it was during the mid-1990s that a sharp and long-lasting change in the language of prisoner reform emerged; with
rehabilitation now being tied to softness on crime, and became ‘something of a dirty word’.