How to approach a problem with maths teacher in secondary school

jupiter00

I am not sure if this is the right forum but we are worried about our son's maths teacher's approach to his maths class, it is higher level for junior Cert next year. I did speak with him on parent/teacher even about giving more regular homework and correcting it and helping students with it next day. He expects the students to do the extra questions themselves and check the answer at the back of the book? He has made more than six mistakes on the board himself some of these had to be pointed out by the students themselves. He thinks it is funny. Basically if they don't get it the students are lacking. He explains things sometimes ,sometimes he tells then to just write it down and he gives them 'notes' to help them. My son has become totally demotivated and given up, he hasnt had homework for the past 6 weeks before 2nd year exam so we would like him to be with a different teacher as he had an excellent teacher in first year. I have now written to the principal and asked to have him moved before it is total disaster for JC. Needless to say we are worried and I conveyed this to the principal in writing last week and we hope to hear from him soon. Any advice here appreciated and please tell me if this is the correct forum.

RealJohn

There could be a lot of reasons for your son's problems and it's difficult to know what the solution is.
I have several points to make.
Firstly, I agree (and I think most of us would) that he should be given regular homework and it's particularly important in maths as maths is not a subject you can 'cram' a few weeks before the exam.
I also agree that the homework should be explained the next day but, depending on the class size, it might not be practical to give every student one-to-one help every day and in any event, if they need it every day, that might be an indication of poor teaching but it might also be an indication that the student isn't up to higher level maths. Many parents think that because Little Johnny was great at sums in primary school that they should also be great at maths in secondary school. This often isn't the case.
Expecting the students to some extra work and check it themselves is also perfectly reasonable (but not as a replacement for homework).
I agree that six weeks without homework is far too long at any stage of the year (though I assume your son used that free time for revision since it was so close to the exams - I'm sure that will have stood to him) but are you sure that this is the case? What did your son write in his homework journal? Didn't you start wondering why he wasn't getting homework after two or three weeks? You should have started wondering after one really.

I find it a little odd that you (and your son) are keeping track of the teacher's mistakes. When you say "more than six", do you mean seven or sixteen? Also, what kind of mistakes are we talking about here? Are we talking about arithmetical errors or did he take the wrong approach to the questions as though he didn't know what he was doing? Either way, laughing it off is also a perfectly reasonable response to this. What do you expect from him? That he downs tools, walks out of the class and goes home to re-evaluate his life? That he drops to his knees and begs the forgiveness of the class?

Certainly the teacher should explain things to the class but in my own experience, particularly with a higher level group, it is often better to give a fairly brief explanation, allow the stronger students to get started and then go around giving individual help to the students who are struggling.

Finally, if you've already written to the school asking for your son to be moved, what was the point of this thread? It's almost as though you want to pick a fight with bored maths teachers (or teachers in general). If it's possible and the school considers it the correct course of action, I'm sure your son will be moved and everyone's happy(ish), right?

evolving_doors

While i'd agree with most of the logic above I can see that its difficult for the op to see what is going on. As teachers we can read between the lines, however if we heard the same concern from say 10 parents about the same teacher then statistically it would be foolish to ignore it...

Basically despite all the above (and maybe valid) suppositions from the previous poster, we still dont know what is going on..

Here's where I stoke the nest...Maybe if the OP could contact other parents to suss them out (our if you know any of the parents of older students who might be more clued in).Also check the teacher's name on the teaching council website, are they fully registered as a maths teacher..if not then mention it to the principal. Also ask the principal if the teacher has attended all the project maths inservices.

But ya I've made mistakes but done my damnedest to be prepaired and to rectify them , as with maths there is always a few ways and the very odd time I had to scratch my head when a student comes up with something that challanges me. I know also that there are always students who would love to pounce on this and make a meal of it to their parents, but hey my previous results speak for themselves.



did the student get summer exam results yet?

BTW first year maths is a doddle to teach so I wouldn't necessarily compare the two teachers, as regards second year its a completely different story...hate to say it but..wheet from chaff and all that...tell yer youngfella to hang in the honours for as long as possible eitherway (dont tell him of any chats youre having with the principal) because if he does move classes and still hasn't a clue then it mightnt look to good for him and also the principal might have appeared to have unnecessarily undermined the current teachers professional opinion by making an executive decision above his head!

2011abc

Replies in caps for clarity(no Im NOT shouting!)

Armelodie wrote: »

if we heard the same concern from say 10 parents about the same teacher then statistically it would be foolish to ignore it...

NOT IF THE FIRST PARENT 'STIRRED UP' THE OTHER NINE!

Basically despite all the above (and maybe valid) suppositions from the previous poster, we still dont know what is going on..


Here's where I stoke the nest...Maybe if the OP could contact other parents (AND BACK TO THE PREVIOUS POINT-VICIOUS CIRCLE!) to suss them out (our if you know any of the parents of older students who might be more clued in).Also check the teacher's name on the teaching council website, are they fully registered as a maths teacher..if not then mention it to the principal. Also ask the principal if the teacher has attended all the project maths inservices.

But ya I've made mistakes (BETCHA WOULDNT WANT FELLOW TEACHERS TO RECOMMEND ONLINE THAT YOUR CREDENTIALS BE CHECKED!) but done my damnedest to be prepaired and to rectify them , as with maths there is always a few ways and the very odd time I had to scratch my head when a student comes up with something that challanges me. I know also that there are always students who would love to pounce on this and make a meal of it to their parents,EXACTLY !SCOURGE OF MODERN TEACHING! but hey my previous results speak for themselves. NO THEY DONT !NOT ANYMORE ...YOU WILL BE TOLD THEY GOT THEM BECAUSE KID WAS GETTING GRINDS-CATCH 22 SITUATION .



did the student get summer exam results yet?

BTW first year maths is a doddle to teach so I wouldn't necessarily compare the two teachers, as regards second year its a completely different story...hate to say it but..wheet from chaff and all that...tell yer youngfella to hang in the honours for as long as possible eitherway (dont tell him of any chats youre having with the principal) because if he does move classes and still hasn't a clue then it mightnt look to good for him and also the principal might have appeared to have unnecessarily undermined the current teachers professional opinion (EXACTLY-SO THE NINE OTHER PARENTS CAN NOW CHIN WAG/BAD MOUTH THE TEACHER TO ANOTHER TEN)by making an executive decision above his head!

There are enough rotten prima donna kids and their gullible parents knocking teachers without encouraging them here.

seavill

I disagree with how strongly people are reacting to this parent.

The majority of us have probably had at least one bad teacher or worked with one at some stage. Sometimes these concerns are genuine.

The OP has not just come on and had a pop at teachers in general, has clearly thought through the thing by sending a letter to the principal. I presume just looking for reassurance here.

I really feel that straight away attacking the parent and child blaming them helps no one and gives us a bad name really, all protecting each other etc.

I think people need to take a step back and not attack the OP for asking a question

Miss Lockhart

All a check on the TC register will tell you is whether they are a registered as a qualified teacher or not, not which subjects they are qualified in.

It's impossible to judge the teacher based on one online account so I won't bother. But I think writing to the principal is a reasonable step forward if you are concerned. I would just wait for their response to see if you get an outcome that you are happy with.

evolving_doors

2011abc wrote: »

Replies in caps for clarity(no Im NOT shouting!)



There are enough rotten prima donna kids and their gullible parents knocking teachers without encouraging them here.

As I stated in the preface (caps and bold for clarity here) WE DONT KNOW what is going on.. it's one of the T&L posts that will go around in circles with anecdotes about bratty students vs' bratty teachers (and good students vs' good teachers!). So there's no point really in anyone jumping on either bandwagon. Maybe parenting forum might be better OP as you'll find that teachers here generally take the perspective of teachers moreso than students (given the forum title and all that).

But ya apologies the TC reg doesn;t give the teachers subject qualification..however you can still ask the principal...and ask about PM inservices.. Surely a parent is entitled to know? Although would you mind OP eitherway if that 1st year teacher of your son was unqualified ?

Have you tried ratemyteachers.com OP?

2011abc

Are you actually joking ?!You can not possibly be a teacher encouraging parents to visit that disgraceful website and thorn in the side of teachers worldwide .

RealJohn

Armelodie wrote: »

But ya apologies the TC reg doesn;t give the teachers subject qualification..however you can still ask the principal...and ask about PM inservices.. Surely a parent is entitled to know?

Is the parent entitled to know? The principal made a decision to put the teacher in that position. If the teacher is unqualified, how does the parent or student benefit from knowing this? We all know a significant minority (I actually believe it's a majority but we're told it's not) of maths teachers are unqualified so what exactly is supposed to happen? Increase maths class sizes to 50 odd students so that they're all being taught by a qualified teacher?

And PM inservice? Don't make me laugh. Like PM itself, all of the ones I went to were a waste of time and resources, costing me a day of class time and giving me almost nothing of value in return.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this parent doesn't have valid concerns (though I'm skeptical, if I'm honest) but sending them on some sort of qualifications and training witch hunt doesn't benefit anyone as far as I can see.

TheDriver

Whilst I do not know the exact situation and competencies of the OP's child, maths seems to be one of those common (suddenly they can't do maths) letters/phone calls into schools. There are many reasons but I would say OP that it usually isn't down to the teacher only, unless we get a lot of complaints. I know you don't want to hear this but some reasons are:
1. Student is not capable of higher level
2. Student doesn't work
3. Student expects hand held every step of the way
4. Parent wants to manipulate child into a "better class"
5. Parent wants to pick their teachers.
What screams at me is the fact you are keeping track and seems to me your child is spending too much energy on whats wrong with teacher rather than checking the main reasons.
I would also say it is foolish that you wrote rather than phoned because things become official, teacher gets involved etc etc.

In Maths Teaching as with other teaching, you will ALWAYS give extra questions and expect students to check the answers in the back, its a fair system for the student to see how they are doing. It could also be the case that the teacher made mistakes on the board to keep students in tow, its a fairly common teaching strategy.

Thread carefully OP. From reading your other posts on Boards.ie, it is clear that you frequently contact the Principal on educational matters......

doc_17

If I had a penny for every arithmetical error I made on the board! I always laugh it off. I am not making light of your concerns though. Maybe get someone to come one on one for 2-3 sessions. They should be fit to tell you then whether it is bad teaching or your child is weak at Maths. But TheDrivers's comment about you frequently contacting schools is worrying.

evolving_doors

RealJohn wrote: »

Is the parent entitled to know? The principal made a decision to put the teacher in that position..

Well if teaching is supposed to be a profession then at the very least you would expect professional qualifications? Would you be happy going to a doctor even if they aren't registered...

Im kind of taking a rediculous hardline approach here but its just merely echoing concerns from fully qualified maths teachers here who can't get a bite at the cake.. Other teachers with no maths qualifications are happy to sit on their hands and potter along with no compunction to get up to par (i.e. Get a maths qualification) simply because they are permanent...

taint fair really, so are parents entitled to know if someone is qualified? Hell ya,

endacl

Sounds like my maths teacher for Inter Cert, OP. That dates me! Useless lump. As a teacher, I can tell you that there's at least one useless lump in every staff room I've ever been in. That's life. Every workplace has at least one.

I was never strong at maths, but I managed it. Got a B in the end at higher level. Its a logical subject, and the book explained it quite well. What with the general dumbing down in the intervening years since the 1980's, I'd say if I could manage Inter Cert maths, your chap should be well able to figure Junior Cert.

Not a solution, but it works. What he figures out himself, he'll actually understand!

Caribbean Cat

I find it extremely undermining and bordering on the word that all teachers are afraid to use...bullying. Bullying.it can be done quite easily by a class against a teacher if a "certain" student decides that you as a "teacher" is not the one they wanted.*"Many things are lost from the school satchel to the home" someone once said.
*translated from an Irish phrase*

jimmycrackcorm

2011abc wrote: »

Are you actually joking ?!You can not possibly be a teacher encouraging parents to visit that disgraceful website and thorn in the side of teachers worldwide .

Your comment defines why that site is useful. As we all know there is no way to deal with sub standard teachers.

Op, if you can afford it, get grinds for your son.

boogle

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Your comment defines why that site is useful. As we all know there is no way to deal with sub standard teachers.

So consulting a website that assesses a teacher's performance in terms like "yah shes sound like" and "hassent got a clue wot hes doin" is a useful way to decide if a teacher is sub-standard? No way.

If a parent has a genuine concern about a particular teacher, then they need to phone the Principal for a chat, or maybe a meeting and discuss their worries in a constructive manner. If a teacher is sub-standard, and a bunch of parents called the Principal about this teacher, then the poor teaching is highlighted to this teacher's employer, and so it can and should be addressed by the Principal. Parents have the right to highlight worries to a Principal, but some of them need to lose the "I pay your wages" mentality, where they feel they have the right to dictate school policy on who teaches what class.

Op, if you can afford it, get grinds for your son.

That's a ridiculous statement. If the problem is 100% with the Maths teacher in question, and the OP is 100% sure of this (i.e. they are totally tuned into their son's effort and dedication to Maths classwork and homework this past year), then the OP should meet with the Principal and make every effort to get it sorted.

I find that most of the time when parents decide to throw money at grinds teachers for Maths because their son/daughter's teacher is "useless", it is actually because the kid has been: not attending school/not working in class/not doing homework/not studying etc. Maths is often the first subject that will expose the student who is a lazy crammer in exams.

I don't mean to sound like I'm totally against the OP or parents in general, but I would just urge parents to explore both sides of the story that their child is telling them at home. There are bad teachers out there, and they deserve to be challenged on their suitability to teach.

"How do you know when teenagers are lying? When their mouths are moving." - Judge Judy

Lord TSC

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Your comment defines why that site is useful. As we all know there is no way to deal with sub standard teachers.

During my PGDE, I'll admit, I really struggled and would have said I was closer to useless than brilliant. I had two classes who were nightmares and I had problems with for the whole year.

Not that you'd know this through that site though. Near the end of my PGDE, I stumbled on the site, checked out my reviews, and noted that I had received 5.

4 said I was excellent and the best teacher they had. It quickly became evident, based on the fact I knew what classes they were, that the "excellence" was because the students using the site thought my class was a doss class at best, a chance to torture me at worst :P If you hadn't known that though, you'd have thought I was a magnificent teacher. The other review gave out about the fact I gave homework every night, something which (as already noted in this thread) should be standard anyway, but got me the one negative review :rolleyes:

Point is, the website generally doesn't give a proper reflection on what makes a "good" teacher or a "bad" teacher. The vast majority of people on the site are students who have a different set of standards and expectations. The rest are parents who have never met the teacher, never sat in the class and are thus basing their opinions on second hand information but presenting it as first.

So yeah. The website is useless.

jupiter00

Thank you all for taking time to reply to my query. Firstly my concern is for my child here. I have no interest in mud slinging at any teacher, if I have concerns I approach the teacher directly or the Principal and not gossip at the school gates as I just want to get things sorted and out in the open. I have been contacted by the principal so I'm waiting to get the summer results first. I accept my son is not a genius but this year he has 'given up' which is my worry for maths, other subjects are consistently good. Someone here said Maths is a subject that has to be taught well and explained and I remember we had a good maths teacher for LC who took time to explain maths in class. That made a huge difference from our previous teacher who expected us to 'get on with it' somehow. On parents night I did queue up to tell the other teachers how happy we were with the schoolwork/ teaching/ results because this is important as perhaps its not said often enough. I am hoping we can come to a solution where my son will benefit from or at least have a better chance at maths.

jupiter00

I just want to ask how many of you have already shredded your students exam answers this year.
This is in relation to my query to the maths teacher could I see my son's actual answers to the 2nd year summer exams as I now know I will need to get him extra help this summer after a disasterous year.
I wanted to see the paper so we could get help with the problem areas but now all is gone! My son is supposed to have passed but now I don't know for sure.
We haven't even got all the results from the other teachers online yet.
I'm so disappointed.

Fizzical

It's up to the Principal as to when the reports are sent out - ask him/her. You'll receive your son's report as soon as anyone else.

As for his exam answers, as long as your son kept his exam paper no worries. If not, I'm sure the school can get you a copy. Whoever will be helping your son can get him to answer the questions and see there and then what mistakes he makes and help him correct his approach.

How can you possibly be disappointed that your son has passed, after he was preparing you for failure? Second year is a standard time for students to stop applying themselves. Good for you for wanting to get him into shape before he starts third year.

RealJohn

Fizzical wrote: »

How can you possibly be disappointed that your son has passed, after he was preparing you for failure? Second year is a standard time for students to stop applying themselves. Good for you for wanting to get him into shape before he starts third year.

In fairness, I would agree with being disappointed with a pass if we're talking about a strong student.
And do many teachers go to the trouble of shredding exam papers? I'd generally just give them back before the end of term (since we have to have ours done before the end of term) or at the start of the following year. It helps to remind the students that what we did last year is relevant to next year.

boogle

Exam papers shredded already? Who told you this; the teacher or the Principal? My spider sense is tingling. I never shred tests, I give them back in September. Don't know any teacher in my school that shreds either.

evolving_doors

jupiter00 wrote: »

I just want to ask how many of you have already shredded your students exam answers this year.
This is in relation to my query to the maths teacher could I see my son's actual answers to the 2nd year summer exams as I now know I will need to get him extra help this summer after a disasterous year.
I wanted to see the paper so we could get help with the problem areas but now all is gone! My son is supposed to have passed but now I don't know for sure.
We haven't even got all the results from the other teachers online yet.
I'm so disappointed.

Hold on a second there now, your post is unclear...

Are you saying the Prinncipal specifically told you that the paper has been shredded?

You say your son is supposed to have passed.. did the principal say "Yes he's passed" in a way that means that he did not fail.... or did he mean that he knew the exact result and was saying that it was a pass grade i.e. not an A,B or C but a D ? Why don;t you tell us his grade ?

In my 'limited' experience the paper stays in posession of the teacher until September where we give them back, who the hell shreds exam papers (and furthermore what principal would actually admit to you that the paper has been shredded!). I think you may be trying to fan the flames a bit here because you havn;t been given access to the paper. It's also my experience that teachers go on holidays after the exams so it would be unfair to expect a teacher to come back and drive back to the school with your sons exam paper to be sent out just to you.

I've seen this situation whereby communication takes place after May between parents and teachers, (whatever about Principals which is fair enough to some extent). Once this precedent has been set for one students then effectively every teacher in that school is expected to be at the beck and call of parents during their holidays. (the whole teachers holiday thing is for another thread..).

If you really want your son to get help during the summer he should have a clue as to where his weeknesses and strengths are, also an experienced grinds teacher will be able to pick up pretty quick where the issues are (especially if they have done summer grinds before 'sans exam paper'). If your son doesn;t really know where the problems lie to some extent then maybe it might be telling you something..

TheDriver

I concur with some of the "shredding" stories here and especially with Armelodie. June is not the time to be contacting schools about this to be honest as teachers are gone and Principal will not be making any decisions about this until Sept when they can consult with the entire department. Also remember that if you want your son taken out of a class and put into another, then it must be negotiated because every school would be getting lots of teaching picking calls getting principals to make those decisions if they do it once. The principal will also possibly look at all the other results in the class to see the general trend.
about the papers, some schools would correct and give back to students, other schools would indeed just dump them depending on the students. Sometimes, you give a paper back in Sept and students don't take a blind bit of notice of them.
You are going to get help for him this summer, fair play. Your son should have copies and notes, he should bring them to the grinds person and quickly go through what he thinks works and what doesn't. The exam is trivial because you are convinced its a "disaster".
Online? Sounds very fancy because I know in my place you won't get the sheet home for another few weeks so at least you found out the result already. What if you get bad results from other teachers about your son?

OP, get a 2nd opinion and work from there. If your son is indeed great then I am sure the school will accomodate your concerns. On the other hand, be prepared for the grind telling you his not with it. I have had to do this in the past because its the truth.

teacherhead

I have all of my tests marked and results entered. The tests are in the recycling.

I have taken note of the areas individuals need to work on and written them into the report. I'm not in the business of keeping 150+ exam scripts lying around the house for 3 months.

I assume your school uses eportal for results, they appear as teachers enter them. If the teacher entered a grade that says your son passed then he passed.

Or are you trying to suggest that the teacher made the results up? It gets better around here every day.

RH149

We used to recycle our exam papers but in recent years we were told to hold onto them until a few weeks into September in case there are any queries from parents or students about results....now that we do that there is rarely ever a query but they are there as back up just in case.