Empty Rifle/Pistol Brass & Shotgun Shells

dev110

Is it legal to have a collection of fired brass and shells from calibres you don't have a license to?

I'm commenting on a FB post and I've said it is illegal to have as empty, fired brass is classed as ammo and you need a license to have it but others are saying it is legal.
Just want to get the correct legal position on it.

vapour_trail

I always presumed it was legal if they arent capable of being fired! Ive loads and loads of empty cases including some military AA cases I aquired from a family friend who is in the army. Nothing live though they are all just cases

IRLConor

dev110 wrote: »

Is it legal to have a collection of fired brass and shells from calibres you don't have a license to?

I'm commenting on a FB post and I've said it is illegal to have as empty, fired brass is classed as ammo and you need a license to have it but others are saying it is legal.
Just want to get the correct legal position on it.

This is the relevant bit from Section 1 of the Firearms Act (as inserted by Section 26 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006):

“(1) In this Act—

“ ammunition ” (except where used in relation to a prohibited weapon) means ammunition for a firearm and includes—

(a) grenades, bombs and other similar missiles, whether or not capable of being used with a firearm,

(b) any ingredient or component part of any such ammunition or missile, and

(c) restricted ammunition, unless the context otherwise requires;

In other words, there's no distinction between component parts of ammunition and the full live version of the same ammo.

garv123

If you're afraid of getting done for that you could really do with a tinfoil hat..

At the gamefairs theirs always a big huge tub of casings where you have to guess the amount at the WDAI or NARGC stand.. I bet the guy who owns it isn't licensed for all them different calibres.

Lots of people have used casings on their key rings and the likes too.

wexfordman2

garv123 wrote: »

If you're afraid of getting done for that you could really do with a tinfoil hat..

At the gamefairs theirs always a big huge tub of casings where you have to guess the amount at the WDAI or NARGC stand.. I bet the guy who owns it isn't licensed for all them different calibres.

Lots of people have used casings on their key rings and the likes too.

Was at one of those re enactment days in Cork gaol last year and one of the stands was selling empty case shells for a euro a pop:-)

While on the subject, I have a couple of hundred empty.243 ones, how do you dispose of them, would think throwing them in the bin was a no no

juice1304

Someone was done for it though afaik

garv123

juice1304 wrote: »

Someone was done for it though afaik

Any link to it?

Cass

juice1304 wrote: »

Someone was done for it though afaik

It was a chap in Wicklow some 8 years ago (IIRC). The case was dismissed, but he still had to go through it.

Chem, off here, was also in a similar position some time back. His case was also dismissed.


Point being that you can be done for it.

Grizzly 45

wexfordman2 wrote: »

While on the subject, I have a couple of hundred empty.243 ones, how do you dispose of them, would think throwing them in the bin was a no no

Take a hammer to them,flatten them,collect them and sell the brass to your nearest junkyard. Buy more ammo.:)

1shot16

Cant you get deactivated ammo... im guessing thats legal.Im sure if you ask ur firearms officer there should be no problem.

Would he ever write permission to let you have 1 round of live ammo of each caliber as you are a collector or are they dat sound?

Witcher

1shot16 wrote: »

Cant you get deactivated ammo... im guessing thats legal.Im sure if you ask ur firearms officer there should be no problem.

Would he ever write permission to let you have 1 round of live ammo of each caliber as you are a collector or are they dat sound?

Firearms Officers can't give you permission for anything and no super would allow people to hold live ammunition unlicenced.

1shot16

Blay wrote: »

Firearms Officers can't give you permission for anything and no super would allow people to hold live ammunition unlicenced.

I know but to be honest i wouldn't think it would be a bad thing to let collecters to get a license to hold no more 1 or 2 rounds of each calibre for collecting purposes only.Im sure there is some pretty expensive rounds out there that collecters cant buy and would love to get their hands on but cant!

If a round goes off and its not in a barrell it ain't deadly!

rowa

Cass wrote: »

It was a chap in Wicklow some 8 years ago (IIRC). The case was dismissed, but he still had to go through it.

Chem, off here, was also in a similar position some time back. His case was also dismissed.


Point being that you can be done for it.

Yeah i remember that, the case dragged on for a couple of years,it was covered in the shooters digest, the guy was worried sick that he was going to be convicted. Not worth the legal costs and the worrys for a few brass cases.

LIFFY FISHING

Spent ammo cases are classified as a round, little known fact, and the spents also count as part of the make up total on your licence, best place to dispose of your spent brass is at a registered range, however some ranges require you to bring your spents away with you.

clivej

Well what about all the people with 100mm cases for keeping the fire irons in

IRLConor

clivej wrote: »

Well what about all the people with 100mm cass for keeping the fire irons in

Just as illegal as holding a piece of .308 brass when all you've got is a licence for a .22.

Unfortunately, just because the law is stupid and widely ignored doesn't mean that a cranky Garda couldn't cause you a lot of hassle over it.

Grizzly 45

True,but your best bet is to make the case unusable as well.
Simply drill a small hole appropriate to the calibre around the base and then it is a totally unusable bit of brass.
Re loaders reject used cases for less ,like micro cracks in the brass.

BattleCorp

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

True,but your best bet is to make the case unusable as well.
Simply drill a small hole appropriate to the calibre around the base and then it is a totally unusable bit of brass.
Re loaders reject used cases for less ,like micro cracks in the brass.

Unusable or not, it's still a component, albeit a damaged one.

Drilling holes in your deactivated firearms renders them unusable, but you still need permission from your Super to have it so I reckon it would be the same with damaged casings.

I think I'd rather play my cards safe and not have something in my possession that's against the law if I don't have a licence for that calibre.

Grizzly 45

Dunno...There is a paradox in all this law.You cant have a bullet board as a shooter,but you can buy and wear a string of empty 7.62 GPMG brass shells[undrilled] down in your local surplus store and wear them as a fashion accessory down to the nite club.Or you can buy a bullet key ring too.Or a deact empty practise pineapple or baseball grenade too.
Reckon the Gaurds would have to arrest half the RDF who were on the Bofors AA guns as just about everyone and his Gran has one or two 40mm empty shells at home as fire iron holders or whatever.:P
The chances of them or of 20lb arty shells being reloaded and used is pretty slim methinks...

IRLConor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Dunno...There is a paradox in all this law.You cant have a bullet board as a shooter,but you can buy and wear a string of empty 7.62 GPMG brass shells[undrilled] down in your local surplus store and wear them as a fashion accessory down to the nite club.Or you can buy a bullet key ring too.Or a deact empty practise pineapple or baseball grenade too.
Reckon the Gaurds would have to arrest half the RDF who were on the Bofors AA guns as just about everyone and his Gran has one or two 40mm empty shells at home as fire iron holders or whatever.:P
The chances of them or of 20lb arty shells being reloaded and used is pretty slim methinks...

There's no paradox in the law, only in the enforcement. None of the above behaviours are legal, they're just not prosecuted.

It's the thing that infuriates me the most about Irish firearms laws. The laws are overly strict and only selectively enforced. This means that no-one from the "ah sure, it'll be grand" brigade complains to politicians and/or the Gardai and hence they think the laws are perfectly reasonable.

Here's just a few things which have stupid laws/policies which have been regularly ignored over the years:

• Ammo limits
• Air guns
• Reloading
• Empty brass

If people actually complained about these laws rather than ignoring them we might have more reasonable firearms laws in this country.

garv123

IRLConor wrote: »

There's no paradox in the law, only in the enforcement. None of the above behaviours are legal, they're just not prosecuted.

It's the thing that infuriates me the most about Irish firearms laws. The laws are overly strict and only selectively enforced. This means that no-one from the "ah sure, it'll be grand" brigade complains to politicians and/or the Gardai and hence they think the laws are perfectly reasonable.

Here's just a few things which have stupid laws/policies which have been regularly ignored over the years:

• Ammo limits
• Air guns
• Reloading
• Empty brass

If people actually complained about these laws rather than ignoring them we might have more reasonable firearms laws in this country.

Some people have air rifles with 100 round limits which makes it near impossible for them to legally buy ammo

IRLConor

garv123 wrote: »

Some people have air rifles with 100 round limits which makes it near impossible for them to legally buy ammo

Yup, and that's not that rare an occurrence either.

If the DoJ/Gardai insist on the ridiculous practice of treating <7.5J airguns as firearms and if they also insist on treating simple lead pellets as ammunition then the least they could do is have a default limit of 5,000 for airguns.

vapour_trail

Let people already with shotgun or rifle licenses be allowed purchase air rifles but it must be registered in your name etc but all youd have to do is submit the info to the guards and pay €25 a year for the permit but youd be allowed walk into a shop and buy the air rifle and walk out with it (if you have a gun license) Id safely say the vast number of lads with a gun license would get one air rifle. Say maybe 80,000 multiplied by €25 every year for the permit alone. Then youd have the money that firearms dealers would make from the business which would be a major amount. Then if anyone who doesnt have a gun license and wants an air rifle they would have to go through the licensing process like it is now.

garv123

vapour_trail wrote: »

Let people already with shotgun or rifle licenses be allowed purchase air rifles but it must be registered in your name etc but all youd have to do is submit the info to the guards and pay €25 a year for the permit but youd be allowed walk into a shop and buy the air rifle and walk out with it (if you have a gun license) Id safely say the vast number of lads with a gun license would get one air rifle. Say maybe 80,000 multiplied by €25 every year for the permit alone. Then youd have the money that firearms dealers would make from the business which would be a major amount. Then if anyone who doesnt have a gun license and wants an air rifle they would have to go through the licensing process like it is now.

Thats only 1.66 a year cheaper than a gun licence... which people dont want to pay already for low powered air rifles.

Grizzly 45

IRLConor wrote: »

If people actually complained about these laws rather than ignoring them we might have more reasonable firearms laws in this country.

Complain to who?

IRLConor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Complain to who?

TDs mainly, but also to Gardai.

For example, rather than thinking "100 round limit? That's bull****, I'll just ignore it and get more" it would be more helpful if people actually told the Gardai that the limit was useless and keep submitting FCA2s to get the limit increased.

Grizzly 45

IRLConor wrote: »

TDs mainly, but also to Gardai.

For example, rather than thinking "100 round limit? That's bull****, I'll just ignore it and get more" it would be more helpful if people actually told the Gardai that the limit was useless and keep submitting FCA2s to get the limit increased.

TDs...Well of course those in opposition will promise anything to get back into power and then ignore your requests when in office..Those in office will make soothing noises and ignore you as they can.An Irish politicans promise is not worth the oxygen used to speak the promise.:(

The Gaurds..."well shure those are only guidelines." [Except when it suits,then they are hard &fast law.] But by rights it is now apprently the minimum amount of ammo to be issued as standard is 500 rounds.

Either it was EU or a NARGC HC situation with tourist shooters bringing in thousands of rounds and us natives were stuck with a 100 rounds .

Keep pushing and your name proably ends up in a "Pesky mouthy smart ass gun owner and possible enemy of the state ." Garda /DOJ file.:rolleyes: I know mine has:D:D.

Simple fact is here no one in power wants anything to do with us,as we are all potential;nutters,criminals or bambi killers.Bad for the political image or the promotion and shot at the Park.Good for either if you can stomp on us further.:mad:

BattleCorp

I never had any problems regarding the amount of ammo I am allowed to have. At first I was granted a certain number of rounds on my licence which wasn't enough for my needs. I could easily use 500 rounds in an afternoon at the range. I filled in the form and wrote a letter explaining why I needed a higher limit and the Gardaí obliged by increasing my ammo allowance. Problem solved.

If you state your case logically, explaining the reasons why you need an ammo increase, there usually isn't a problem.

garv123

BattleCorp wrote: »

I never had any problems regarding the amount of ammo I am allowed to have. At first I was granted a certain number of rounds on my licence which wasn't enough for my needs. I could easily use 500 rounds in an afternoon at the range. I filled in the form and wrote a letter explaining why I needed a higher limit and the Gardaí obliged by increasing my ammo allowance. Problem solved.

If you state your case logically, explaining the reasons why you need an ammo increase, there usually isn't a problem.

Unfortunately thats not the case always as you said it usually isnt a problem but,

Some supers will refuse to grant more than 100 rounds and will no listen to any reasoning. same as some will just always refuse a mod no matter what you try and say

dc99

I asked this question as well to a fire arms dealer. he confirmed they are counted as ammo because you can reload the brass. ( not so much for rimfire though) if you think about it the brass would be the hardest part to make.

IRLConor

BattleCorp wrote: »

I never had any problems regarding the amount of ammo I am allowed to have. At first I was granted a certain number of rounds on my licence which wasn't enough for my needs. I could easily use 500 rounds in an afternoon at the range. I filled in the form and wrote a letter explaining why I needed a higher limit and the Gardaí obliged by increasing my ammo allowance. Problem solved.

If you state your case logically, explaining the reasons why you need an ammo increase, there usually isn't a problem.

I did precisely that while asking for 5,000 rounds and was given 500. I then sent in an FCA2 for 5,000 and months later plus a visit from the CPO I got it increased to 1,000.