Protesters smash Windscreen of Minister Hogan Car, protesters to complain!

Cody Pomeray

Deleted User wrote: »

We cannot continue to borrow for day to day living.

Oh God. Pure guff.

All funds go into the same pot. Outside of exceptional periods of economic instability, it is impossible to say whether borrowed funds are spent on current or on capital projects. I don't think anybody denies that it is perfectly acceptable to borrow for capital projects within agreed sustainability parameters, and often it is also acceptable to borrow for current spending; so what you're saying here is effectively nonsense.

The important question is the amount we borrow; silly lines like the above, which you might as well have lifted from the government press office website, are not particularly illuminating, it seems like it's either (i) spin or (ii) words for the sake of words tbh.

Weevil

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you not want Ireland to be prosperous again? Thinking positive is much better than negativity. I've no loyalty to any political party. My loyalty lies with Ireland, a great little country and the only place in the World I want to live.

There's a big difference between positivity and bullsh!t. Here's what you said:

"Maybe the simple fact is that the majority of people are satisfied with the efforts of the Government to get Ireland back on track."

Positivity or Bullsh!t?

Banjo String

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe the simple fact is that the majority of people are satisfied with the efforts of the Government to get Ireland back on track. No matter who is in charge, harsh tactics are called for. We cannot continue to borrow for day to day living. Decisions were taken, for better or worse, in the best interests of Ireland. We are not alone suffering from austerity.
People have the right to peaceful protest, not to cause criminal damage to anothers property.

But it is not the 'simple fact'!

The majority of Ireland are very much dissatisfied with the current govt, and how it is ruining running the country.

Three-quarters of voters are dissatisfied with the way the Government is running the country, according to the poll, which has found a shocking level of disillusionment among the public.


A massive 75 per cent say they are dissatisfied and less that one-in-five (17 per cent) is satisfied with Fine Gael and Labour's implementation of austerity measures.

In the Sunday Independent today, Paul Moran, associate director of Millward Brown, writes: "Many are beyond being disaffected – they feel disenfranchised."


In an analysis of the public mood, Mr Moran writes: "What is worrying for the Government is that this disaffection with their policies spans the generational divide. It is not a knee-jerk reaction from any particular cohort – the malaise is widespread across all ages."


Negative sentiment towards the Government has only been surpassed during one period in the modern history of opinion polls – the dying days of the Fianna Fail/Greens administration. Even during the GUBU days of the 1980s, Government support held up more firmly.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/shock-poll-75-per-cent-despair-of-government-29194711.html

Weevil wrote: »

There's a big difference between positivity and bullsh!t. Here's what you said:

"Maybe the simple fact is that the majority of people are satisfied with the efforts of the Government to get Ireland back on track."

Positivity or Bullsh!t?

Judge for yourself. 75% of unhappy voters.

emo72

guys, im involved in retail, and every few months when things are bad I say to myself "well at least things can't get any worse". well things do get worse, the local economy is dead. i mean really dead.

its being nose diving for about 5 years. now most people have yet to actually start paying property tax and then in january water tax will kick in with A FULL YEARS PROPERTY TAX. there is hardly any money now. there will be less next year. where is the growth supposed to come from?

there needs to be a revolutionary idea from our government, because this sure isn't working.

remember, i think a big point that people are missing is that those guys aren't all looney lefties. it will be the likes of me who wants to contribute to society and provide jobs and make a society good for everyone. everyone should have a chance to make a life for themselves. I will consider it my duty to go out and confront people who are destroying our country while they smirk and grin and patronise us. my family is starting to scatter all around the world, good hardworking nephews and nieces gone to australia to try make a living. these are not "lifestyle choices".

when i look at the likes of noonan and shatter and hogan, they really should try to tone down the smugness. someone will snap.



a bit of positive thinking really isn't going to help at all. I am actually starting to get scared about what might happen over here. really scared. i see no solution to what is going on. positive thinking my arse

Corkbah

Deleted User wrote: »

Why the Hell should ANYONE, let alone Politicians 'engage' with mindless vandals?

I'm talking about BEFORE these people turn to violence ... the politicians often ignore the people that voted them in (unless they - the politician- have a vested interest, if the person seeking help has political or family connection to ANY other politician or the person has a business in the area)

I'm not advocating this violence - just saying that the politicians do not engage the people UNLESS it suits them (12-18 months before the next election we'll see politicians turning up to everything that public opinion is on)

have you seen a politician actual go door to door canvassing or engaging with the public in the last number of years .... I haven't !...have you seen one (in the papers) go on a junket to a foreign country in the name of representing OUR country ... I have !! and I have seen the amount of money spent and the people brought with them....huge waste of money in my opinion.

if this country is so f*cked .... why dont ALL politicians stop foreign travel in an effort to save spending, many other European ministers dont attend brussels they attend meetings via video link and stay in their own country because its more important to fix their own country than to fly over for a meeting where (in general) nothing is agreed except that another meeting on the matter must be scheduled.

ecowise2

emo72 wrote: »

positive thinking my arse

Nothing wrong with positive thinking, but the causes of the financial problems still have not been addressed and it looks like they never will. Just like FF before them, FG/Lab think they can bully, bullshyte, cut and tax the country out of recession, dealing only with the symptoms and never the cause.

hfallada

ecowise2 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with positive thinking, but the causes of the financial problems still have not been addressed and it looks like they never will. Just like FF before them, FG/Lab think they can bully, bullshyte, cut and tax the country out of recession, dealing only with the symptoms and never the cause.

The country would have been bankrupted with cuts and tax increase. The cause of the balance deficit is the massive welfare and public sector labour costs. Which people dont want to touch

Ireland isnt the only country in the world under going austerity. Its a global crisis

Banjo String

Phoebas wrote: »

The labour manifesto called for a property tax. The FG one didn't.

Labour +1

Lol.

That's what the politicians will be telling us on our doorsteps come election time "it was all Labour's idea, blame them for the LPT"

FG scrapped the exemptions Labour proposed funny enough.

Oh, and what about rising USC for high earners Labour proposed?

FG +1

Getting back to the topic. Smashing a car windscreen (tax payers car, not Phil Hogans) is pointless and quite simply indefensible.

In saying that though, the level of outrage is increasing, I predict things are going to heat up further.

When will the government start listening to the people?

username123

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe the simple fact is that the majority of people are satisfied with the efforts of the Government to get Ireland back on track.

lol, this is the most deluded statement Ive ever seen on boards.ie.

Seriously, even in the 80s when things were awful, I do not remember this level of vitriol towards the government by ordinary people. People are very very angry. Its no surprise that Bully Boy Phil has incited violence in protestors, a more hated individual would be hard to find with his disrespect for the people who elected him and his use of the media to issue threats to the electorate all the while refusing to pay his own management fees on his golf apartment in the sun. A more disgusting hypocritical individual would be difficult to find.

ecowise2

hfallada wrote: »

The country would have been bankrupted with cuts and tax increase. The cause of the balance deficit is the massive welfare and public sector labour costs. Which people dont want to touch

Funny how we managed for 90 years with welfare and public services. No mention of the 300 billion of money borrowed for the next 40 years by the state and paid to private bondholders for private bankers and private developers and SCAMA. How about touching that ? How about touching the 2 billion being paid in legal fees to a few private Dublin legal firms for SCAMA ? Any word of cutting that at all ? No, didn't think so . . .

hfallada wrote: »

Ireland isnt the only country in the world under going austerity. Its a global crisis

"It was Lehman brothers that done it" - lol

Is that why Ireland is called one of the PIIGS ? One of the five most corruptly governed countries in the EU, with the most protected Golden circle.

BluntGuy

Corkbah wrote: »

how many people have made change by conforming/doing what they are told ?

I didn't suggest that rigidly conforming/doing what you are told is a way of effecting change. I denounced the use of violence to achieve change. Don't present a false dichotomy.

bmaxi

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with protesting but smashing windscreens is a bit skangerish tbh.

While most people who protest are reasonable taxpayers a lot of protests attract a minority of scummers who just want to cause trouble.

The apologists for our corrupt politicians wouldn't agree with you, in their eyes all protesters are skangers. Reasonable taxpayers are lunching at the golf club.

oscarBravo

bmaxi wrote: »

The apologists for our corrupt politicians wouldn't agree with you, in their eyes all protesters are skangers. Reasonable taxpayers are lunching at the golf club.

That would be one of those false dichotomies.

Le_Dieux

Deleted User wrote: »

Why the Hell should ANYONE, let alone Politicians 'engage' with mindless vandals?

Why the hell should ANYONE believe liars?

Maudi

Phoebas wrote: »

If you can't win your argument at the ballot box, time to reach for the Armalite, eh?

Yes .

Good loser

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Why the hell should ANYONE believe liars?

Nothing wrong with it - especially if they themselves are liars. Do you divide the population into liars and non-liars? Which group are you in?

I'm a straddler myself - but that makes three groups! I don't believe much you write (that's a non lie).

Le_Dieux

SamHall wrote: »

Lol.

That's what the politicians will be telling us on our doorsteps come election time "it was all Labour's idea, blame them for the LPT"

FG scrapped the exemptions Labour proposed funny enough.

Oh, and what about rising USC for high earners Labour proposed?

FG +1

Getting back to the topic. Smashing a car windscreen (tax payers car, not Phil Hogans) is pointless and quite simply indefensible.

In saying that though, the level of outrage is increasing, I predict things are going to heat up further.

When will the government start listening to the people?

Judging by the people who are on here saying what they say in defence of this excuse of a government, the short answer to Your question Sam, is..........NEVER.

Phoebas

Swanner wrote: »

Eh lets not get carried away with ourselves here. It was a broken windscreen. Armalites and hand grenades ?? Dramatic much ??

It is a bit dramatic, but look - here's poster Maudi advocating terrorism on this very thread.

>>

Phoebas wrote: »

If you can't win your argument at the ballot box, time to reach for the Armalite, eh?

Maudi wrote: »

Yes .

Curly Judge

emo72 wrote: »

guys, im involved in retail, and every few months when things are bad I say to myself "well at least things can't get any worse". well things do get worse, the local economy is dead. i mean really dead.

its being nose diving for about 5 years. now most people have yet to actually start paying property tax and then in january water tax will kick in with A FULL YEARS PROPERTY TAX. there is hardly any money now. there will be less next year. where is the growth supposed to come from?

there needs to be a revolutionary idea from our government, because this sure isn't working.

remember, i think a big point that people are missing is that those guys aren't all looney lefties. it will be the likes of me who wants to contribute to society and provide jobs and make a society good for everyone. everyone should have a chance to make a life for themselves. I will consider it my duty to go out and confront people who are destroying our country while they smirk and grin and patronise us. my family is starting to scatter all around the world, good hardworking nephews and nieces gone to australia to try make a living. these are not "lifestyle choices".

when i look at the likes of noonan and shatter and hogan, they really should try to tone down the smugness. someone will snap.



a bit of positive thinking really isn't going to help at all. I am actually starting to get scared about what might happen over here. really scared. i see no solution to what is going on. positive thinking my arse

Could you please supply three, just three, practicable ideas to get the economy running again?
If you can it would be worth a lot more than breaking a car window!

Curly Judge

username123 wrote: »

lol, this is the most deluded statement Ive ever seen on boards.ie.

Seriously, even in the 80s when things were awful, I do not remember this level of vitriol towards the government by ordinary people. People are very very angry. Its no surprise that Bully Boy Phil has incited violence in protestors, a more hated individual would be hard to find with his disrespect for the people who elected him and his use of the media to issue threats to the electorate all the while refusing to pay his own management fees on his golf apartment in the sun. A more disgusting hypocritical individual would be difficult to find.

While no fan of either Hogan, Noonan or Shatter, I fail to see where this business of "issuing threats to the public" is coming from?
The government decided to bring in a tax and laid out clearly how the tax would be collected.
This is no more than self employed people have been putting up with for decades!
It may have come as a bit of a shock to the no hopers who have never paid for anything in their lives or to PAYE workers who have never had to file a tax return but... Hey... welcome to the real world!

Peanut2011

Curly Judge wrote: »

Could you please supply three, just three, practicable ideas to get the economy running again?
If you can it would be worth a lot more than breaking a car window!

Plenty of ideas have been put forward to this and previous government but thy don't listen unless those ideas are presented by some overpaid mate of theirs who told them what the dogs on the street have been barking for ages!

Instead of them issuing threats and showing smuggness of the higher order as they can introduce what ever they want because of their majority in the dail, they should show by example what needs to be done.

The real change needs to be done and needs to start from the whole political set up. These days most of them are there , from what they show and how they represent themselves, for their own personal gain! Unfortunately until Irish voters start voting for the people because of their merits instead of because "my dad voted FG all his life so will I" or "their father was a TD I'll give them a vote" nothing will ever change.

Corkbah

BluntGuy wrote: »

I didn't suggest that rigidly conforming/doing what you are told is a way of effecting change. I denounced the use of violence to achieve change. Don't present a false dichotomy.

I also think violence should not be used - but how do you suggest a person can get the attention of someone who is ignoring you, I'm not saying this is the right way to do it, in an ideal world silent and constant protest - turn up to everything the politician is involved in.

(but I think that was tried and restraining orders were gotten .... I have a vague recollection of a politician doing this in the mid 80's or early 90's - the member of the public was deemed to be harassing the politician by seeking to speak with them repeatedly - because the politician didn't want to engage they used the law to remove the person...actually now that I think of it - there's always a silent protestor or two outside the dail .... I think there was something in the papers last year about a guy who was outside the dail every day for over 2yrs .... never got much attention ...so silent protest in my opinion doesn't work....the only protest the politicians actually took note of was the silver surfers - OAP's - they had the time and willingness to protest in numbers and public opinion was in their favour - the government learned that any changes affecting the OAP's could lead to mass protests and lets face it if the media get pics of old people or children being man-handled by Gardai public opinion goes against the government)

bmaxi

oscarBravo wrote: »

That would be one of those false dichotomies.

And that would be the perspective from which those aforementioned apologists would view it.

An Coilean

Are people missing the part where the guy supposidly smashed the windscrene with his fist!

I'v seen hammers bounce off a windscreen what was this guys hand made of?

Dani Pacheco

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Judging by the people who are on here saying what they say in defence of this excuse of a government, the short answer to Your question Sam, is..........NEVER.

Not a great thing to judge tbh.

Never read so much utter crap in a thread, really, amazingly ignorant stuff in here.

The intelligence of people in here would make you question the theory of evolution, it really would.

Corkfeen

Swanner wrote: »

Eh lets not get carried away with ourselves here. It was a broken windscreen. Armalites and hand grenades ?? Dramatic much ??

It would have been terrifying for both the driver and Hogan. Plus either party could have gotten injured. There is no justification for their actions.

bmaxi

Phoebas wrote: »

If you can't win your argument at the ballot box, time to reach for the Armalite, eh?

No argument was lost at the ballot box. What happened at the ballot box was the people voted for a change of government based on the manifestoes of the two coalition partners, a distinct and much vaunted "vote for change".
Is that what happened?
It is inevitable that people will lose faith in the ballot box as a way to effect change, when their efforts are rewarded with lies and deceit.

Curly Judge

An Coilean wrote: »

Are people missing the part where the guy supposidly smashed the windscrene with his fist!

I'v seen hammers bounce off a windscreen what was this guys hand made of?

Agreed... but in the world of Shinnerology - he was standing on the foot path and Big Phil came over and deliberately placed the wheel of his car down on the poor divils foot.

Phoebas

bmaxi wrote: »

No argument was lost at the ballot box. What happened at the ballot box was the people voted for a change of government based on the manifestoes of the two coalition partners, a distinct and much vaunted "vote for change".
Is that what happened?
It is inevitable that people will lose faith in the ballot box as a way to effect change, when their efforts are rewarded with lies and deceit.

Yep. That's how I read it too. These people perceive that they aren't getting what they want through the democratic process, so they're willing to turn on the violence.
Its obviously (obvious to any right minded person) not justified.

bmaxi

Phoebas wrote: »

Yep. That's how I read it too. These people perceive that they aren't getting what they want through the democratic process, so they're willing to turn on the violence.
Its obviously (obvious to any right minded person) not justified.

The definition of the democratic process is, "government of the people, by the people, for the people". In today's Ireland that has been changed to "for some people", so in other words it is not a true democratic process. The vote is only a means to an end, the government has reneged on their end of the bargain so need not be surprised if the people renege on theirs.

emo72

Curly Judge wrote: »

Could you please supply three, just three, practicable ideas to get the economy running again?
If you can it would be worth a lot more than breaking a car window!

No. What do I know about economies. I run a business as best I can.

Other people put themselves forward for public office to help run the country.

They are being rewarded handsomely whether they to it good or bad.

Is it too much to ask they do their jobs competently?

BluntGuy

bmaxi wrote: »

The definition of the democratic process is, "government of the people, by the people, for the people". In today's Ireland that has been changed to "for some people", so in other words it is not a true democratic process. The vote is only a means to an end, the government has reneged on their end of the bargain so need not be surprised if the people renege on theirs.

How is smashing people's windscreens going to improve the democratic process?

Phoebas

bmaxi wrote: »

The definition of the democratic process is, "government of the people, by the people, for the people". In today's Ireland that has been changed to "for some people", so in other words it is not a true democratic process. The vote is only a means to an end, the government has reneged on their end of the bargain so need not be surprised if the people renege on theirs.

So its clear that some people think that the Government has circumvented democracy to the point that a violent attack on a Government Minister is justified (obviously I think this is nonsense, but its a subjective measure so I won't argue the toss with you), but how far would it be acceptable for the violence to go?
Would the murder of Phil Hogan be acceptable to you or should they stop short at his maiming?

bmaxi

BluntGuy wrote: »

How is smashing people's windscreens going to improve the democratic process?

Point out to me where I have condoned the smashing of the windscreen. The action is indeed, evidence of the failure of the democratic process, unwelcome but hardly unexpected given government policy and the nature of implementation.

bmaxi

Phoebas wrote: »

So its clear that some people think that the Government has circumvented democracy to the point that a violent attack on a Government Minister is justified (obviously I think this is nonsense, but its a subjective measure so I won't argue the toss with you), but how far would it be acceptable for the violence to go?
Would the murder of Phil Hogan be acceptable to you or should they stop short at his maiming?

Not circumvented, abused and I don't accept the murder or of Phil Hogan or his maiming is justifiable, I just wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

Good loser

bmaxi wrote: »

Point out to me where I have condoned the smashing of the windscreen. The action is indeed, evidence of the failure of the democratic process, unwelcome but hardly unexpected given government policy and the nature of implementation.

It is no such thing. For a start how do you know what his motivations were?
Perhaps he's just mentally unstable?

I am long in this world and find this government very much middle-of-the-road in the context of governments past.

I voted FF last time (for balance). This government's main failure is in not being more aggressive rather than less.

bmaxi

Good loser wrote: »

It is no such thing. For a start how do you know what his motivations were?
Perhaps he's just mentally unstable?

I am long in this world and find this government very much middle-of-the-road in the context of governments past.

I voted FF last time (for balance). This government's main failure is in not being more aggressive rather than less.

He was one of a crowd involved in the action, are you suggesting they are all mentally unstable?
I didn't exactly come down in the last shower myself, I'm here long enough to remember de Valera as Taoiseach and while there have been periods of austerity before, I have never experienced a period during which such a sustained, centralised and multi pronged attack was made against one section of the community.
I have never voted Fianna Fail so I'll have to concede that one.

Good loser

bmaxi wrote: »

He was one of a crowd involved in the action, are you suggesting they are all mentally unstable?
I didn't exactly come down in the last shower myself, I'm here long enough to remember de Valera as Taoiseach and while there have been periods of austerity before, I have never experienced a period during which such a sustained, centralised and multi pronged attack was made against one section of the community.
I have never voted Fianna Fail so I'll have to concede that one.

You referring to the farmers?

narddog

I would have decked the **** to be honest.

bmaxi

Good loser wrote: »

You referring to the farmers?

In what respect, that they are all mentally unstable? Hadn't thought about it, not inconceivable I suppose?

bmaxi

Dani Pacheco wrote: »

Not a great thing to judge tbh.

Never read so much utter crap in a thread, really, amazingly ignorant stuff in here.

The intelligence of people in here would make you question the theory of evolution, it really would.

Yet you choose not to beam down and enlighten us with your superior intellect, preferring to criticise and throw out disparaging comments from afar.Really, I'm despairing as to where evolution is taking us.

K-9

mike65 wrote: »

You couldn't make it up so I won't



Ya lucky Big Phil didn't get out and tax you around the ear with a folder! Seriously though the cheek of these upstart agitators is quite something to behold.

Quoting from the charter:

If your OP consists of nothing more than a two-line thought that just popped into your head, don't start a thread. Again, that will be treated as trolling - the thread will be deleted, and you'll be banned or infracted, depending on how egregious the example is.

As for the quality of some of the posts on this thread:

Certain standards of debate are expected, and will be enforced. Your posts must contribute to debate, not derail it or drag it into mob chanting. There's been a serious decrease in the signal to noise ratio in the forum recently, and that trend requires reversal.

If your posts consists of little more than a statement that some group of people or other are bad people and/or deserve prison/execution as traitors, think long and hard before pressing "submit", because we'll be treating that as trolling from here on in.

There is an existing Property tax thread for all your Phil, Government and protestor bashing needs.