Gardaí - What would you do if spoken to in Irish?

smcgiff

goldie fish wrote: »

Well that would be a huge mistake.

In the past, as was their right, PIRA suspects, when being questioned at checkpoints would only answer their questioner in Irish.

At checkpoints. Checkpoints targeting the likes of PIRA members. In that case it would make sense to include Irish speakers.

The point I'm making is that there is no need for every garda to have conversational Irish.

audidiesel

id like to have it but sadly my german is superior to my irish at this stage. its taught very poorly in schools. irish as an official language is a nice thing in theory, but the way it was taught to me in the early 90's was woeful. memorising the odd bit of poetry basically.

you get the odd gowl who tries it to get away with something, but my basic level matches theirs so they soon give up.

ive only ever come across one person genuinely speaking it. once id gotten past the basics like name and address, I essentially had to give him the option to wait for an irish speaker or else switch to English.

WilcoOut

audidiesel wrote: »

i

ive only ever come across one person genuinely speaking it. once id gotten past the basics like name and address, I essentially had to give him the option to wait for an irish speaker or else switch to English.

t pal tried to pull a fast one

saltandpepper10

its actually an ambition of mine to learn irish just to have a negative interaction with one of our blue uniformed friends.have a way better plan mind you of working in a spar /deli /pub and preparing a subsidised meal for are freeloading guardians of the peace

WilcoOut

saltandpepper10 wrote: »

its actually an ambition of mine to learn irish just to have a negative interaction with one of our blue uniformed friends.have a way better plan mind you of working in a spar /deli /pub and preparing a subsidised meal for are freeloading guardians of the peace

get back to work


and dont be stingy with the hang and cheese

go raibh mile maith agat

An Coilean

Johnny Electricity wrote: »

I think most people would agree that somebody who insists on dealing with a garda exclusively in irish is being a c*nt, and if the garda's grasp of irish isn't up to the same standard, then why is there a problem with forcing them to wait for a translator?

Mainly because this is Ireland and Irish is not a foreign language but is instead the first national language, a whole raft of legal precident clearly says that the state is indeed obliged to facilate the use of Irish by Irish citizens regardless of their ability to speak English and the Gardaí as upholders of the law should have no business in breaching it.

markpb

An Coilean wrote: »

Mainly because this is Ireland and Irish is not a foreign language but is instead the first national language, a whole raft of legal precident clearly says that the state is indeed obliged to facilate the use of Irish by Irish citizens regardless of their ability to speak English and the Gardaí as upholders of the law should have no business in breaching it.

I'm curious to know how you see this working. I agree that you're legally correct but the reality is that most people in Ireland do not use Irish so even if all Gardai are fluent when passing out, they won't use Irish on a day to day basis and will, over time, lose it.

An Coilean

smcgiff wrote: »

I imagine there are enough garda proficient in Irish for deployment in Irish speaking areas. I imagine it would suit certain garda as I can't imagine there being a lot of serious crime in such areas. Although it would probably inhibit prokotion prospects.

However, I see little need for many Irish speakers based at store street station.

You would think so but unfortunatly that does not mean that Gaeltacht areas actually have competent Irish speaking gardaí stationed in them.
Its not a reflection on the individual Garda, but a Garda or any public servant stationed in a Gaeltacht area who does not have competent Irish is simply not fit for purpose.

Only 1 in 9 Gardaí stationed in Gaeltacht area spoke Irish

An Coilean

markpb wrote: »

I'm curious to know how you see this working. I agree that you're legally correct but the reality is that most people in Ireland do not use Irish so even if all Gardai are fluent when passing out, they won't use Irish on a day to day basis and will, over time, lose it.

There are more than enough Irish speaking Gardaí in the force to provide an appropriate service. All Gardaí should have a basic standard of Irish sufficient to ask basic questions, give directions etc. On top of that fluent Irish speaking Gardaí should be identified so that in a case where the Garda at the scene does not have sufficient Irish to deal with the member of the public these Gardaí can be contacted on the phone to deal with the member of the public and provide a translation as needed for the Garda at the scene.
Each division should have a number of Gardaí competent to provide such a service with a list of their contact details kept at each station.
This should be sufficient for routine contact with the public that does not involve someone being arrested.

bravestar

An Coilean wrote: »

There are more than enough Irish speaking Gardaí in the force to provide an appropriate service. All Gardaí should have a basic standard of Irish sufficient to ask basic questions, give directions etc. On top of that fluent Irish speaking Gardaí should be identified so that in a case where the Garda at the scene does not have sufficient Irish to deal with the member of the public these Gardaí can be contacted on the phone to deal with the member of the public and provide a translation as needed for the Garda at the scene.
Each division should have a number of Gardaí competent to provide such a service with a list of their contact details kept at each station.
This should be sufficient for routine contact with the public that does not involve someone being arrested.

I could add a 101 other things to your "should" list, that are far more pressing, but that's not really the point. If the Garda you are dealing with does not speak the language you want to speak in, then tough luck, your going to wait until someone comes along to assist the Garda that can speak it. Be that another Garda or an interpreter. If whatever you were doing was that pressing a matter, then speak whatever language the Garda is speaking and get on with it.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

An Coilean wrote: »

Mainly because this is Ireland and Irish is not a foreign language but is instead the first national language, a whole raft of legal precident clearly says that the state is indeed obliged to facilate the use of Irish by Irish citizens regardless of their ability to speak English and the Gardaí as upholders of the law should have no business in breaching it.

Would engaging the services of a translator not count as facilitating the use of the Irish language?

markpb

An Coilean wrote: »

There are more than enough Irish speaking Gardaí in the force to provide an appropriate service. All Gardaí should have a basic standard of Irish sufficient to ask basic questions, give directions etc

They might have it at the start of their career but I can't see many of them maintaining that level of fluency unless they use it every day. This means being based in an area where people actually use Irish and, from my experience, that doesn't mean a Gaeltacht where, in *some* cases, Irish seems to be a cultural identity rather than a language that people actually use.

An Coilean

Johnny Electricity wrote: »

Would engaging the services of a translator not count as facilitating the use of the Irish language?

Detaining someone for several hours while a Garda with sufficient Irish is found is not considered to be satisfactorily fulfilling the obligation to facilitate the use of Irish by members of the public, no.

An Coilean

bravestar wrote: »

I could add a 101 other things to your "should" list, that are far more pressing, but that's not really the point. If the Garda you are dealing with does not speak the language you want to speak in, then tough luck, your going to wait until someone comes along to assist the Garda that can speak it. Be that another Garda or an interpreter. If whatever you were doing was that pressing a matter, then speak whatever language the Garda is speaking and get on with it.

Well no actually its not tough luck, its a breach of commitments made by An Garda Síochána and the right of citizens to use Irish when dealing with the state. The organisation has been investagated several times already for failures in this regard and do seem to be making some progress in getting their act together but there is still plenty of room for imporvement.

An Coilean

markpb wrote: »

They might have it at the start of their career but I can't see many of them maintaining that level of fluency unless they use it every day. This means being based in an area where people actually use Irish and, from my experience, that doesn't mean a Gaeltacht where, in *some* cases, Irish seems to be a cultural identity rather than a language that people actually use.

Well then you are not very aware of the modern Irish language community, there are more fluent daily speakers of Irish outside of the Gaeltacht than in it, its not something only spoken out whest.

As for the Gaeltacht itself, head out to An Cheathrú Rua and see (Hear) for yourself that Irish is still used as a community language.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

An Coilean wrote: »

Detaining someone for several hours while a Garda with sufficient Irish is found is not considered to be satisfactorily fulfilling the obligation to facilitate the use of Irish by members of the public, no.

But who says it takes several hours?

An Coilean

Johnny Electricity wrote: »

But who says it takes several hours?

If the translator is on hand when the person is stopped by the Garda or contacted in a short space of time to provide the service then fine, my comment was in relation to the case I previously linked to in which a member of the public was arrested and detained for several hours for choosing to use Irish.

markpb

An Coilean wrote: »

Well then you are not very aware of the modern Irish language community, there are more fluent daily speakers of Irish outside of the Gaeltacht than in it, its not something only spoken out whest.

So why are those areas still called Gaeltachts?

As for the Gaeltacht itself, head out to An Cheathrú Rua and see (Hear) for yourself that Irish is still used as a community language.

That's why I said, and highlighted, the word: some.

An Coilean

markpb wrote: »

So why are those areas still called Gaeltachts?

What areas, the point is that while there are Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht that is not the only place they are found, there are in fact more fluent Irish speakers outside of the Gaeltacht and as such it is clearly not impossible or in truth even particularly dificult to maintain a competent fluency in Irish in any part of the country.

There are some parts of the official Gaeltacht where Irish is no longer widely spoken and yes they should no longer have Gaeltacht status but that is a different discussion.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

An Coilean wrote: »

If the translator is on hand when the person is stopped by the Garda or contacted in a short space of time to provide the service then fine, my comment was in relation to the case I previously linked to in which a member of the public was arrested and detained for several hours for choosing to use Irish while an Irish speaking Garda was found.

If it's such a problem waiting then speak english. Times change, Gaelige is not widely spoken as once was, so if someone is going to deliberately awkward/stubborn then let them be detained.

An Coilean

Johnny Electricity wrote: »

If it's such a problem waiting then speak english. Times change, Gaelige is not widely spoken as once was, so if someone is going to deliberately awkward/stubborn then let them be detained.

There should be no obligation on Irish citizens to speak English when dealing with the state, this is Ireland after all.
Times change and it is no longer acceptable for peoples rights to be infringed for choosing to speak Irish in their own country.

bravestar

An Coilean wrote: »

There should be no obligation on Irish citizens to speak English when dealing with the state, this is Ireland after all.
Times change and it is no longer acceptable for peoples rights to be infringed for choosing to speak Irish in their own country.

There is no obligation, they can wait for a translator or speak English.

kub

Sounds like a case for The Garda Ombudsman, i wonder what that is in Irish.

WilcoOut

Johnny Electricity wrote: »

If it's such a problem waiting then speak english. Times change, Gaelige is not widely spoken as once was, so if someone is going to deliberately awkward/stubborn then let them be detained.

thats a good point

if you had urgent business with the Gardai, speaking Irish to a non speaker would just hamper yourself

indioblack

An Coilean wrote: »

I am interested to know how members of the Gardaí would react if a member of the public insisted on using Irish.

There was a case a while back of a Garda arresting someone for doing this and I am curious to know how other members of the Gardaí would react in a similar circumstance.

If such an incident happened as you describe, I would think the guard might have regarded the behaviour of this member of the public as wasting police time - which it would be.
Presumably your police think they have better things to do on duty than trying to accommodate someone attempting to make a political point in a rather childish fashion.
There should be more productive ways of doing this.

The Black Oil

This probably goes back to the wider problem of Irish is taught and how the curriculum was designed. Yes, in an ideal world, I'm sure more members of the force would speak it, but it's not their working language. It may be a right to deal with an apparatus of the state, but a very small minority of native speakers, imo, (not necessarily those who might need to interact with AGS) hold on to it in a way that would be perceived as trolling. A balance needs to be struck in facilitating a right and what is reasonable and practical.

Frankly, I'd prefer (excuse me I'm speaking out of turn here) if more resources were providing for training around mental health, disability...probably more valuable for a member to be able to sign for the Deaf community, for example.

IRLConor

An Coilean wrote: »

There should be no obligation on Irish citizens to speak English when dealing with the state, this is Ireland after all.
Times change and it is no longer acceptable for peoples rights to be infringed for choosing to speak Irish in their own country.

I think the whole "Irish is the first language of the state, English is the second" issue is the best example of the difference between de jure and de facto. No amount of wishing, praying, teaching or Official Languages Acts will change the fact that for the vast majority of people in this country Irish is a distant second language and English is their first.

When I want the cooperation of Gardai I jump through stupid hoops, fill in stupid forms, give them personal details that are none of their business and do any number of things that are irritating, time wasting or otherwise distasteful to me because not doing so means I don't get what I want. I don't see why it's so hard for Irish speakers to do likewise.

Pat Mustard

Ah, the old "gabh mo leithscéal" defence. There's always some muppet who thinks it'll help get him off drink driving or something.

Clowns.

bravestar

The Mustard wrote: »

Ah, the old "gabh mo leithscéal" defence. There's always some muppet who thinks it'll help get him off drink driving or something.

Clowns.

And here is the whole thread in a nutshell