England making excuses yet again..

Smithwicks Man

Same old story from the English when they get knocked out of an international competition. "If we had have had this, if we had have had that". This time it is the European u21 Championships and they are blaming the unavailability of certain players who are with the senior squad (Chamberlain and Phil Jones being the only 2 who aren't injured)

Sick of hearing these excuses every time they lose in these competitions. Other countries in the competition were in the exact same situation and yet they're competing just fine (Italy being the prime example).

They have to be the worst losers I've ever seen. Just today they had a list up on SSN of "7 players who could have made a difference" - and 5 of them are injured :eek:

Why can't England just accept defeat and when will they realise that they're not near as good as they think they are?

/rant

kryogen

Why let it bother you?

AdamD

Playing Chamberlain, Jones and Wilshere probably would have helped tbf..

Smithwicks Man

Their media propaganda just annoys me! Wilshere's injured so couldn't play and other countries have far better eligible players than Jones and Chamberlain. It just annoys me the way they go on after losing

Kiwi_knock

They were badly missing a striker; Delfouneso, Wickham, or Sordell will never get senior caps. The more experienced players (Henderson, Shelvey, and Caulker) they depended on let them down badly and the promising young players (Ince and Zaha) underperformed. They had the squad there to do a lot better than they should have.

Chucky the tree

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

They were badly missing a striker; Delfouneso, Wickham, or Sordell will never get senior caps. The more experienced players (Henderson, Shelvey, and Caulker) they depended on let them down badly and the promising young players (Ince and Zaha) underperformed. They had the squad there to do a lot better than they should have.

Their horrendous manager doesn't help either.

CSF

Are the English media not there to analyse why the English team fail to perform? They seem to have broken it down to 3 main reasons and I wouldn't call any of them excuses as much as they are reasons. The fully capped under 21 players issue, a lack of young English players playing in the Premiership, and a proper coaching structure still being in its infancy. It is surely ok as a pundit to admit the team is crap and then talk about why.

Smithwicks Man

Was impressed with Shelvey I have to admit, henderson is desperately bad... The above post is dead on the mark except they didn't do that, they tried to say "If we had Chamberlain and if we had Jones"

If Italy had Balotelli and El Shaarawy it would have been a lot more than 1-0 ...

Iused2likebusts

Totally agree with the OP. Roll on next year when they get knocked out of the WC till we hear the we need to have a winter break argument, even though it doesnt affect all the other nationalities playing in the premiership. The there isnt enough English players playing in the league makes no real difference either. If the players are good enough i.e. in and around international standard they will break through, if there not good enough they will end up playing in the championship.
I always remember when they got Sven they said he was perfect as they needed someone with a bit of european experience. They got the league to finish up a couple of weeks early to give them more preparation time (another previous excuse). It made no difference.
They then said he was too nice and relaxed and needed an englishman with a bit of passion. They got Mclaren but after a while he was out of his depth and too close to the players.(supposedly)
They then needed the best man for the job someone detached from the players so Capello was brought in. Baden Baden was too relaxed so S Africa was to be a wag free zone. When that didnt work Capello was too strict they again needed an englishman that understands the players.
Now we have hodgson its going to end in failure my moneys on hes " a 4 4 2 man" we need someone modern.
Simple fact of the matter is that english players cant keep the ball and when it gets to the top level they end up chasing the ball and lumping it forward to a big man.
In fairness to hoddle after the last 2 games he pretty much came out and said that and not since he was in charge have they looked like doing anything in a tournament

Smithwicks Man

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Totally agree with the OP. Roll on next year when they get knocked out of the WC till we hear the we need to have a winter break argument, even though it doesnt affect all the other nationalities playing in the premiership. The there isnt enough English players playing in the league makes no real difference either. If the players are good enough i.e. in and around international standard they will break through, if there not good enough they will end up playing in the championship.
I always remember when they got Sven they said he was perfect as they needed someone with a bit of european experience. They got the league to finish up a couple of weeks early to give them more preparation time (another previous excuse). It made no difference.
They then said he was too nice and relaxed and needed an englishman with a bit of passion. They got Mclaren but after a while he was out of his depth and too close to the players.(supposedly)
They then needed the best man for the job someone detached from the players so Capello was brought in. Baden Baden was too relaxed so S Africa was to be a wag free zone. When that didnt work Capello was too strict they again needed an englishman that understands the players.
Now we have hodgson its going to end in failure my moneys on hes " a 4 4 2 man" we need someone modern.
Simple fact of the matter is that english players cant keep the ball and when it gets to the top level they end up chasing the ball and lumping it forward to a big man.
In fairness to hoddle after the last 2 games he pretty much came out and said that and not since he was in charge have they looked like doing anything in a tournament

Great post, agree completely

NinjaK

Its down to their enormous ego and arrogance.

Renn

Totally. Top class manager so it's baffling to think this set of players aren't performing...

aindriu80

England are a good team but don't have the ability at the highest level to deliver. One of their requirements is to adopt the continental way of playing. I don't think they can realise that but at the same time you can't expect them to either. They don't do anything very well in general and I think they are more of a journey man country along for the ride than anything else.

CSF

Renn wrote: »

Totally. Top class manager so it's baffling to think this set of players aren't performing...

Oh my god how did I not know about this... What a ridiculous man.

Despite all these excuses about who cant or wont play, surely these tournaments are development tournaments? A huge footballing nation like England shouldn't need senior internationally capped players to help them compete but the sad reality is that they do and until they address this, they are going nowhere fast.

How can England justify hiring the likes of Stuart Pearce who failed at Man City, almost relegated them in fact, and is a seemingly limited man in terms of his ideas on football?

CSF

Deleted User wrote: »

Despite all these excuses about who cant or wont play, surely these tournaments are development tournaments? A huge footballing nation like England shouldn't need senior internationally capped players to help them compete but the sad reality is that they do and until they address this, they are going nowhere fast.

How can England justify hiring the likes of Stuart Pearce who failed at Man City, almost relegated them in fact, and is a seemingly limited man in terms of his ideas on football?

If you look at many of the other teams, senior internationally capped players do play. These players are the same age like and would still benefit greatly from international tournament football, and it is probably more important they get that experience, considering they've already proven themselves more likely to be there when the next one comes around. The young lads should have been there imo.

CSF

CSF wrote: »

If you look at many of the other teams, senior internationally capped players do play. These players are the same age like and would still benefit greatly from international tournament football, and it is probably more important they get that experience, considering they've already proven themselves more likely to be there when the next one comes around. The young lads should have been there imo.

Ok i accept that perhaps they could have played and that competitive games could have helped them more then the recent friendlies but i also see the players argument as to why they would prefer to link up with the Senior squad also with next year being world cup year.

Should England have stronger strength in depth though? I just think their absence highlights the greater problems that English football has (in International terms) and that while Holland, Italy, Germany, Spain, etc might include senior players i think they would cope better with their absence.

England have failed to address their flaws the way Germany, Spain and Belgium have and the way they put a plan into action to develop football in the future. England are developing in spurts and were overlooking naturally gifted players for years to pick more robust players with little talent.

CSF

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok i accept that perhaps they could have played and that competitive games could have helped them more then the recent friendlies but i also see the players argument as to why they would prefer to link up with the Senior squad also with next year being world cup year.

Should England have stronger strength in depth though? I just think their absence highlights the greater problems that English football has (in International terms) and that while Holland, Italy, Germany, Spain, etc might include senior players i think they would cope better with their absence.

England have failed to address their flaws the way Germany, Spain and Belgium have and the way they put a plan into action to develop football in the future. England are developing in spurts and were overlooking naturally gifted players for years to pick more robust players with little talent.

English teams have for as long time relied on English players to provide the grit and power in their teams, and signed players from abroad to look after the more skillful and technical side of the game. When they go to international level, they don't have those foreign players to do that job and they're just left a load of solid but limited players.

CSF

CSF wrote: »

English teams have for as long time relied on English players to provide the grit and power in their teams, and signed players from abroad to look after the more skillful and technical side of the game. When they go to international level, they don't have those foreign players to do that job and they're just left a load of solid but limited players.

True. In a way the 3-foreigner rule helped England a great deal. They are suffering big time since. Still though i can remember the likes of Matt Le Tissier couldnt even make an England squad such was the rigidity of their selection policy. True he wasnt the most hardworking, but he had match-winning ability. Should have won more England caps then he did. Alf Ramsey for example is lauded for his achievement but never moved with the times. He hadnt the man management skills to deal with a new wave of mavericks like Stan Bowles or Rodney Marsh who should have won more caps

They just wouldnt take a gamble on that type of player. Yes they had brilliant footballers in the 80s and 90s but never utilised them to their maximum capabilities. 1990 aside, they have flattered to deceive since. Cant help thinking that they have been too systematic and rigid in their tactics instead of letting natural footballers express themselves more

osarusan

England (and Ireland too, kind of) keep looking at the top of the pyramid and hoping a change there will be the difference, but it's the other end of the pyramid where much much more fundamental changes need to be made. Nobody seems to have the balls to do or even mention it though.

Xavi6

Renn wrote: »

Totally. Top class manager so it's baffling to think this set of players aren't performing...

No need for it, it took three years for that to be erased from memory first time round

elefant

Xavi6 wrote: »

No need for it, it took three years for that to be erased from memory first time round

"I sat at home on Saturday night and thought to myself: 'What shall I do if we're drawing the game late on and need to hit it long?'" explained Pearce. "I've got a good striker in Jon Macken, who is really disappointed, but I wanted to unsettle them and in some ways it did. It unsettled everyone . . . them and us."

Brilliant!

SEPT 23 1989

Renn wrote: »

Totally. Top class manager so it's baffling to think this set of players aren't performing...

those were the days:D

aidan24326

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Their horrendous manager doesn't help either.

It was rumoured at the last WC that the senior players had no time for him as a coach. Not that they have or had any personal gripe with him just that his coaching methods/ideas and overall ability were not to everyone's liking.

So why is he still coaching the U-21s?

And I find it strange that David Bernstein would come out and say, to all intents and purposes, that the U-21s don't matter and will always be sacrificed in favour of what's right for the senior squad. Surely at this stage given all their failings in major tournaments they should be going back to basics and investing heavily in youth development.

astonaidan

Well Im not blaiming Stuart Pearce or anything, but I took over England in Football Manager and gave the job to Brian Kerr, he won the competition without conceding a goal, so............

LuckyLloyd

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Their horrendous manager doesn't help either.

His qualification record is extraordinary all the same (as noted by Armanijeans elsewhere).

Gael85

England 21s beating again,lost 1-0 to Israel

Stuart Pearce blames players after England Under-21s defeat

Stuart Pearce blamed his England players after another poor European Under-21 Championship display but hinted he wanted to stay in the job.
Ofir Kriaf's 81st minute winner for Israel means the Young Lions, one of the pre-tournament favourites, return home pointless after three defeats.
"The players haven't delivered," Pearce, whose future as coach will be discussed by the Football Association in the next two weeks, told BBC Sport.
"I'm really disappointed with my team."

David Pleat
Football Analyst
"Some of the players gave the impression that they were on the beach, and I stress some of them. I'm not sure if they were ready for this tournament. They seemed to lack self-belief and unification, they didn't play well together."

Read more from David Pleat about England's poor form at the 2013 European Under-21 Championship
The former Manchester City manager is out of contract at the end of the month and is due to sit down and talk about his future with the FA.
He said: "I've no idea (whether this result will impact my chances).
"You look around Europe over six years and see that our team is the only team that has been here four times running.
"We've lost very few games - bar this tournament - in tournament football over the years and played some very good football over that time, so there's a middle ground somewhere."
England, who averaged three goals per game in qualifying, return home on Wednesday having failed to secure a single point - or a goal from open play - in 270 minutes of action at the finals.
They opened the tournament with a 1-0 defeat to Italy.
The only time they found the net was from Craig Dawson's penalty when they were already trailing 3-0 to Norway last Saturday.
"I honestly don't believe I should be here answering questions on behalf of the players," Pearce added after the Israel defeat.
"They should be here answering questions on why their performances were so poor, to be honest with you.
Uefa Under-21s Euro 2013 Group A table
Played Won Drawn Points
Italy
3
2
1
7
Norway
3
1
2
5
Israel
3
1
1
4
England
3
0
0
0
"I don't think it's my responsibility at this stage to answer for a performance as bad as that.
"We've lost games before, but collectively in this tournament we haven't delivered for whatever reason. The players have to come out and be strong and ask themselves 'how am I going to get better?'
"From start to finish in the tournament the players haven't delivered."
Pearce steered England to the 2007 semi-finals, where they lost on penalties to the Netherlands, before losing the 2009 final against Germany in Sweden.
Howver, they have now failed to advance past the group stage in the last two tournaments.
Asked why England had been so poor, Pearce said: "Maybe there wasn't enough talent here.
"The bottom line is the results were not good enough. We lost three games and we'll get on a plane and reflect on how bad we were.
"This is the business end of the tournament and we got what we deserved.
"I don't think we deserved to win a game. Credit to the Israelis, they deserved to beat us.
Current players eligible for England's 2015 qualifying campaign
Thomas Ince, Jack Butland, Connor Wickham, Andre Wisdom, Josh McEachran, Jonjo Shelvey, Nathaniel Chalobah, Wilfried Zaha, Nathan Redmond and Jack Robinson.

"If you don't turn up and work hard enough in any given tournament, you won't get any success and that was typical of today and probably the two games prior to it."
England start their qualification campaign for the 2015 European Under-21 Championship on 5 September at home to Moldova.
They are in the same qualifying group as Wales, Lithuania, Finland and San Marino

jenno86

I know some are injured... should say maybe if they had the best u21's available and made available.

LowOdour

was thinking, what kind of wages would some of rhe english players be on compaerd to the likes of Italy, norway and Israel players? any easy way if finding this info

Chucky the tree

He completely threw the team under the bus tonight, he must be gone after this. What a plank.

Stuart Pearce lambasted England's Under-21 players after an embarrassing European Championship plummeted to new lows with a 1-0 defeat to hosts Israel.


PA Photos
England failed to claim a single point at the European Under-21 Championship
The Young Lions headed into their fourth successive tournament riding the crest of a wave, having won nine matches on the bounce without conceding a goal. However, that run was brought to abrupt end, with defeats to Italy and Norway putting the knock-out stages beyond England with a game to spare.

Restoring pride was the party line heading into the Group A finale against Israel but things would only get worse, with Ofir Krieff's strike proving decisive. It means England return home on Wednesday morning in shame, having failed to muster a single point from a group they had expected to progress from.

"I think basically if you don't turn up and work hard enough in any given tournament, you won't get any success and that was typical of today and probably the two games prior to it," Pearce said. "I honestly don't believe I should be here answering questions on behalf of them.

"They should be here answering questions on why their performances were so poor, to be honest with you. I don't think it's my responsibility at this stage to answer for a performance as bad as that.

"This is the business end of the tournament and we got what we deserved. I don't think we deserved to win a game. Credit to the Israelis tonight - they deserved to beat us."

Things have no doubt been made harder this past week by the fact players like Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, Phil Jones and Danny Welbeck were unavailable to Pearce.

Senior team friendlies were deemed more important than the tournament, while there have been suggestions that some of the Under-21 squad would rather have been at the beach.

"I don't think so," Pearce said when asked about that. "I think we've got players here who have not performed. Barring Andre Wisdom, I would say, and his performance tonight - that's why he was made captain and I think he should be captain for the next two years. I think he led by example. I think players didn't bring their form here."

The players may take a large proportion of the blame, but the inquest into England's failings could well see Pearce lose his job.

The former international full-back's contract expires at the end of the month but, despite making his desire to stay public, there have been few positive noises from the Football Association.

"It was a real poor performance," Pearce said. "In regard to my future, my mentality has not changed in ten days, when I spoke to you (the press) and gave you the heads up on what my mentality would be. Results in this tournament have not affected that one iota.

"I've no idea [whether this will impact my chances]. When you look around Europe over six years and see that our team is the only team that has been here four times running. We've lost very few games, bar this tournament, in tournament football over the years and played some very good football over that time, so there's a middle ground somewhere.

"We've not performed in this tournament, that's for sure. There might be a multitude of reasons for that. I have to take it on the chin and obviously the players do as well."

Richard Hillman

It has always surprised me that the FA never asked Irish football fans on how they should improve the structure of their game. Irish people always have the answer to England's woes. They are like voyeurs, looking from afar whilst the subjects of the voyeurism do not even know they exist.

Chucky the tree

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It has always surprised me that the FA never asked Irish football fans on how they should improve the structure of their game. Irish people always have the answer to England's woes. They are like voyeurs, looking from afar whilst the subjects of the voyeurism do not even know they exist.

It's always surprised me the FA have never asked anyone, anywhere, even remotely competent about how to run a football organisation.

darragh16

Chucky the tree wrote: »

It's always surprised me the FA have never asked anyone, anywhere, even remotely competent about how to run a football organisation.

You think they'd have learned from their mistakes like the French, Spanish and German FA's before them. But can you ever see the English asking others for help? Nah!

inforfun

England was lucky they were in the group they were in.

If they had been in a group with Spain, Holland and Germany it would have been comedy gold.

Francie Barrett

Irish fans tearing the English FA to shreds should be looking closer to home first.

GLaDOS

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Irish fans tearing the English FA to shreds should be looking closer to home first.

It's not like we're afraid to criticise the FAI in fairness

Chucky the tree

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Irish fans tearing the English FA to shreds should be looking closer to home first.

Yea cos whenever the FAI are mention they get showered with praise on here. :pac:

LiamoSail

Martin Tyler on ssn just now. Made an excellent point

Alex ferguson got given time at united, and what followed was plenty of trophies.

Hence...

Give Pearce time (because clearly that's all that the winning formula is lacking), and what will inevitably follow is trophies

A flawless plan

greendom

LiamoSail wrote: »

Martin Tyler on ssn just now. Made an excellent point

Alex ferguson got given time at united, and what followed was plenty of trophies.

Hence...

Give Pearce time (because clearly that's all that the winning formula is lacking), and what will inevitably follow is trophies

A flawless plan

So that's where Ireland went wrong with Staunton

A2LUE42

LiamoSail wrote: »

Martin Tyler on ssn just now. Made an excellent point

Alex ferguson got given time at united, and what followed was plenty of trophies.

Hence...

Give Pearce time (because clearly that's all that the winning formula is lacking), and what will inevitably follow is trophies

A flawless plan

I remember seeing an interview with Pearce years ago, when he was first given a managers job. He showed his first team selection to his wife and she said that it was quite good, but had he thought of having a goalkeeper.

It always struck be as being incredibly naive to be admitting such a fundamental mistake when you are trying to gain credibility in such a fickle business for the sake of a laugh on a talk show.

yohan the great

The big problem for England is that their good players don't care. Havard Nordtveit came on for Norway the other day having played for the senior side the night before.

Francie Barrett

ScienceNerd wrote: »

It's not like we're afraid to criticise the FAI in fairness

That's different, the FAI is our football association after all. The English FA on the other hand is a foreign institution and really none of our concern. I suspect the only reason a few keyboard warriors around here are putting the boot in is because of bigotry. It's strange, because many of the same people having a go have have probably never even been to a LOI game and follow an English team

Lennonist

Francie Barrett wrote: »

That's different, the FAI is our football association after all. The English FA on the other hand is a foreign institution and really none of our concern. I suspect the only reason a few keyboard warriors around here are putting the boot in is because of bigotry. It's strange, because many of the same people having a go have have probably never even been to a LOI game and follow an English team

The problem for Irish soccer is; most of our players play in England and most of them go over as apprentices and develop there. So as long as the English continue to develop their young players and apprentices to play muck football, we unfortunately end up doing the same. It would be better if we could keep our best players in Ireland for longer and that they could then move on to England or other European leagues if they want. No sign of that happening bar the odd case.

Just because something is muck, and people describe it as muck, doesn't necessarily mean they have some kind of agenda or that they are bigoted or something. The English commentators and pundits are describing the English national teams at senior and underage level as muck as well btw. Would you use the word bigoted to describe their views? of course not. Try and engage with the topic at hand, instead of throwing about lazy insinuations about people's opinions.

Chucky the tree

Francie Barrett wrote: »

That's different, the FAI is our football association after all. The English FA on the other hand is a foreign institution and really none of our concern. I suspect the only reason a few keyboard warriors around here are putting the boot in is because of bigotry. It's strange, because many of the same people having a go have have probably never even been to a LOI game and follow an English team

So we should never comment on foreign clubs, international teams, foreign players etc?

Lennonist

Chucky the tree wrote: »

So we should never comment on foreign clubs, international teams, foreign players etc?

Yes, because Francie might accuse you of being bigoted if you do.

I'm waiting for the English media to start talking up the need for foreign managers again and round we go once more

Francie Barrett

Chucky the tree wrote: »

So we should never comment on foreign clubs, international teams, foreign players etc?

When Holland finished Euro 2012 with 0 points you didn't get a thread demanding that they replace all their domestic coaches.

Chucky the tree

Francie Barrett wrote: »

When Holland finished Euro 2012 with 0 points you didn't get a thread demanding that they replace all their domestic coaches.

As a Liverpool fan surely you must realised the connection a lot of Irish fans would have with the Premier league and thus, the English national team. It can hardly be that difficult to grasp.

Francie Barrett

Chucky the tree wrote: »

As a Liverpool fan surely you must realised the connection a lot of Irish fans would have with the Premier league and thus, the English national team. It can hardly be that difficult to grasp.

No, I do not understand. I have a connection to Liverpool because they are my club team. I have a connection to the Irish national team because I live here. I have a connection to my son's local team because he plays for them. I wish England well but ultimately, I couldn't give a rats about them unless it benefits Liverpool.

The only reason an Irish person would feel a connection with England was because they support them (extremely unlikely) or that they don't like England and want to see them get beaten.

Chucky the tree

Francie Barrett wrote: »

No, I do not understand. I have a connection to Liverpool because they are my club team. I have a connection to the Irish national team because I live here. I have a connection to my son's local team because he plays for them. I wish England well but ultimately, I couldn't give a rats about them unless it benefits Liverpool.

The only reason an Irish person would feel a connection with England was because they support them (extremely unlikely) or that they don't like England and want to see them get beaten.

The difference is some people are football fans as well as just fans because they live somewhere/like the colour of a shirt etc. I enjoy the premier league, one of the reasons is because I support Liverpool so while watching them I also know more about the PL. I'd happily watch a PL match even if it had no bearing on Liverpool - because I also like football. Having an interest in England is no different than having an interest in who will win the Championship next year.

Francie, not sure if you're serious here.

The majority of posters on the SF support an english team. Surely it's natural for them to comment on the English national team from time to time!

I'd say most don't care a whole pile bar the occasional debate, no big deal.