"Ireland’s priests will have almost disappeared in 20 years"

Galvasean

jimd2 wrote: »

Considering the poor state of the Catholic Church (as you and others see it) I wonder why you continue to be so obsessed with it?

You keep asking this question, but you never stick around to actually engage with an answer so here's sarcastic Wonka.

Bannasidhe

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

They fill children's heads full of bull****. My sister (5) was quite inquisitive about the origin of everything before she started into school. After her first year there her answer is now "Holy God did it". It's quite disheartening, tbh.

I can see it with Hermoine. She is going from a bright, inquisitive (stunningly logical and literal) child eager to learn to one who hates school as she simply doesn't think she is being educated. She knows most of it is BS but she is still only 6 and a good kid who just wants to fit in. The conflict is awful to watch as she suppresses her intelligence and logical self in order to not stand out from the crowd.

Two weeks ago she was discoursing on the concept of heaven and how attractive a notion it is which means she would like to believe in it - but the fact is no one knows what happens after we die so it really is just a nice idea. Asked if she said this to her teacher she said no, she just thinks these things as if she says it she gets 'looked at' and called weird and even though weird people are the ones who invent all the cool things it's not cool to be called weird when you are only six going on seven. It hurts. :mad:

She asked me to home school her and if it weren't for the fact that she lives over 100 km away I would do it in a heartbeat.

ardmacha

People are complaining about Christians attempting to impose Christian dogma onto non-Christians. I fail to see what is so unreasonable about expressing their problem with such an idea.

Who is attempting to impose Christian dogma onto non-Christians? Are you required to believe in God?
If Christians believe that it is wrong to murder and steal and ask the government to stop people murdering and stealing are they imposing "dogma". Why should you be allowed murder and steal because you don't like Christians?

Delirium

ardmacha wrote: »

Who is attempting to impose Christian dogma onto non-Christians? Are you required to believe in God?

over 90% of primary schools for a start.

If Christians believe that it is wrong to murder and steal and ask the government to stop people murdering and stealing are they imposing "dogma". Why should you be allowed murder and steal because you don't like Christians?

Where did I say I don't like Christians?

Opposition to murder or theft is something that people of various worldviews can agree on. People can see murder as a bad thing without the need for a religious group to tell them that.

It could be argued that people that don't believe an afterlife exists might view murder more dimly that those that do. Wiping out a unique existence is a truly terrible image to comprehend when put up against the belief that the next life will be external bliss.

Anyways, the government must justify its reasoning for making something illegal in a way that doesn't rely on people being members of a certain religious group.

swampgas

ardmacha wrote: »

Who is attempting to impose Christian dogma onto non-Christians? Are you required to believe in God?

If you want to teach in most primary schools, or get your kids enrolled, often you have to pretend you do.

If you don't want your kids indoctrinated with religion in a state funded primary school, why should this be difficult?

If Christians believe that it is wrong to murder and steal and ask the government to stop people murdering and stealing are they imposing "dogma". Why should you be allowed murder and steal because you don't like Christians?

The government should outlaw murder and theft because the people think murder and theft are wrong and should be made illegal, not because somebody's holy book or unelected chief holy man says so.

If Christians want divorce, contraception, homosexuality and working on Sundays (for example) made illegal, then yes, they are trying to force their religion onto everyone else.

Bannasidhe

ardmacha wrote: »

Who is attempting to impose Christian dogma onto non-Christians? Are you required to believe in God?
If Christians believe that it is wrong to murder and steal and ask the government to stop people murdering and stealing are they imposing "dogma". Why should you be allowed murder and steal because you don't like Christians?

Ah, it's the old 'no ethics or moral without Christianity' bovine poop.

So before Christianity is was ok to murder and steal?

No. It wasn't.

How do we know? Because we have written laws the pre-date Christianity which say it is wrong to murder and steal.

If fact, Christianity had no issue with murdering it's critics and opponents and stealing their stuff. That would be why there are very few Cathars left. They were murdered. Thousands and thousands of them. Because they believed Jesus was not a god, but a man. And they lived in a lovely part of France with a good climate...

ardmacha

Anyways, the government must justify its reasoning for making something illegal in a way that doesn't rely on people being members of a certain religious group.

The government should justify making something illegal because it is the wishes of its democratic electorate.

The government should outlaw murder and theft because the people think murder and theft are wrong and should be made illegal,

That would be democracy.

If Christians want divorce, contraception, homosexuality and working on Sundays (for example) made illegal, then yes, they are trying to force their religion onto everyone else.

Oddly enough, all of these things are perfectly legal.

Delirium

ardmacha wrote: »

The government should justify making something illegal because it is the wishes of its democratic electorate.

That would be democracy.

Oddly enough, all of these things are perfectly legal.

I have to disagree. The government should be able to logically justify making something illegal, irrespective of what the voters may say. If the government can't justify why they want to ban something then how are the voters supposed to make an informed decision when it comes time to vote?

Democracy couldn't work with the premise of "ban first, explain later."

swampgas

ardmacha wrote: »

<...>
Oddly enough, all of these things are perfectly legal.

They are now, and only because democracy, and more importantly, the concept of individual human rights, have slowly pushed back the imposition of the morality of a specific religion onto all citizens.

What exactly is your point, by the way? That religion has no significant influence on the governance of the country?

Kiwi in IE

ardmacha wrote: »

Who is attempting to impose Christian dogma onto non-Christians?

The school my 5 year old child will be attending come September will be doing exactly that! The government does not provide a secular school in our area, therefore they are imposing Christian dogma onto non Christians also, as it is their responsibility to provide education.

Kiwi in IE

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

They fill children's heads full of bull****. My sister (5) was quite inquisitive about the origin of everything before she started into school. After her first year there her answer is now "Holy God did it". It's quite disheartening, tbh.

I really hope Protestant schools are less horrendous than their Catholic counterparts. I am pinning my hopes on that anyway, as we only had a choice between the two. The thought of my sons naturally inquisitive nature being suppressed by that bull@&'* makes me feel sick.

Hotblack Desiato

lazygal wrote: »

Preschools should be easy enough in terms of secular options though, in fairness. Most are privately, rather than church, run and managed. I have a background in the sector and it'd be the exception rather than the rule for a preschool to have a religious ethos.

At least with a school with a so-called 'ethos' you know what you're getting into.
We'd no idea that the privately run pre-school in Dublin where we sent our daughter for ECCE would be making the kids say prayers, we only found out by chance months later when it was too late to remove her.

Hotblack Desiato

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I really hope Protestant schools are less horrendous than their Catholic counterparts. I am pinning my hopes on that anyway, as we only had a choice between the two. The thought of my sons naturally inquisitive nature being suppressed by that bull@&'* makes me feel sick.

Our daughter is just finishing up her first year in CoI school (contrary to popular belief, most of Dublin doesn't have Educate Together schools, either.) Unfortunately she is doing the religion thing as there is no other supervision available, and we don't want to make her feel excluded. I'm far from happy about this but we have no other real option, and otherwise it's a great school.
She certainly won't be doing sacraments however (although some of her cultural catholic classmates will be, in a couple of years :rolleyes: )

Kiwi in IE

ninja900 wrote: »

Our daughter is just finishing up her first year in CoI school (contrary to popular belief, most of Dublin doesn't have Educate Together schools, either.) Unfortunately she is doing the religion thing as there is no other supervision available, and we don't want to make her feel excluded. I'm far from happy about this but we have no other real option, and otherwise it's a great school.
She certainly won't be doing sacraments however (although some of her cultural catholic classmates will be, in a couple of years :rolleyes: )

My partner and I have been obsessed with schools and I have been to nearly every school within reasonable distance from home. I definitely got the best vibe from the COI School. When I explained our position on religion many principles of Catholic schools looked at me like I'd grown two heads (small town or rural schools). One even said she woulîd "very much recommend I allow my son to do 'the sacraments' for his own good". I didn't wait around to ask, but I had a feeling she was talking more from a 'saving his soul', rather than preventing him from feeling excluded, perspective.

There was a very relaxed atmosphere in the COI school. The principle seemed to have a slightly eye rolling response to religion (as opposed to me). And in general I feel that the hierarchy of the Anglican church is much better at keeping it's beak removed from the personal and sex lives of both it's followers and the rest of the population than the RCC. At the end of the day they teach the same rubbish, but in what I find to be a generally less ridiculous (transubstantiation) and offensive way in a general sense. Anglicanism seems less all encompassing of every single aspect of life than Catholicism, therefore I am hoping it will overlap less into other subjects and the general school day. Like yourself Ninja, I am not going to insist that a 5 year old is separated from his class during religion and made to feel different, so we will just have to counter anything ridiculous that he is taught at home, as it is age appropriate to do so. There is little point in telling a child that dosnt know what a virgin is that it is impossible for a virgin to give birth!

kylith

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yeah - they say that but in reality this means the child is removed from the classroom like they are being punished (son used to call it the walk of shaming) or else sit there but completely excluded. Experience and many many fights with school principles means I know of what I speak.

ninja900 wrote: »

Our daughter is just finishing up her first year in CoI school (contrary to popular belief, most of Dublin doesn't have Educate Together schools, either.)

Unfortunately she is doing the religion thing as there is no other supervision available, and we don't want to make her feel excluded. I'm far from happy about this but we have no other real option, and otherwise it's a great school.
She certainly won't be doing sacraments however (although some of her cultural catholic classmates will be, in a couple of years :rolleyes: )

I still find this lack of ability to supervise children to be very strange. The primary school I went to had several Buddhist kids who were sent to the classroom next door to do colouring in when their own class was doing religion or preparing for sacrifices. The Protestant in my class in secondary got to do her homework quietly down the back of the class. No one thought they were weird, or it was something to be ashamed of; we were all dead jealous because they got to colour/get a head start on their homework instead of having to try stay awake through another boring religion lesson.



In happier news; last night I got my religious dad to agree that communion and confirmation should be left until the person is in their 20s. He reckoned that "At least the hundreds of pounds [sic] they get would be some use to them then, rather than just wasting it all on feckin' video games".

SebBerkovich

kylith wrote: »

In happier news; last night I got my religious dad to agree that communion and confirmation should be left until the person is in their 20s. He reckoned that "At least the hundred of pounds [sic] they get would be some use to them then, rather than just wasting it all on feckin' video games".

Now that i'm older i've come to realise that if i was given 100 quid i wouldn't blow it on video games. I've learned that you've gotta invest in a good graphics card first. Ohh but the arrogance of youth....

NIMAN

I am Catholic by birth, do not practice except for the usual events, but still get my kids baptised etc due to the fact that I would struggle with getting them educated.

I often think to myself, if the Church did not exist in this country, the vast institution, all the priests, Mass, communion, confirmation, confessions, would my life really be any different?

I think the honest answer would be no. I would be exactly the same person, and I think my children would grow into being the same they would anyway, Church or not Church.

Bannasidhe

NIMAN wrote: »

I am Catholic by birth, do not practice except for the usual events, but still get my kids baptised etc due to the fact that I would struggle with getting them educated.

I often think to myself, if the Church did not exist in this country, the vast institution, all the priests, Mass, communion, confirmation, confessions, would my life really be any different?

I think the honest answer would be no. I would be exactly the same person, and I think my children would grow into being the same they would anyway, Church or not Church.

Catholic by birth? You were born Catholic.
Really?

I find that hard to believe. Are you sure you weren't born and then baptised a Catholic?

You do not practice except for the usual events? So you half practice? When you are half practicing do you fully participate?
Sounds like a typical Irish Catholic to me.

I think Ireland would be a vastly different country without the insidious influence of the RCC.

For a start we would have far fewer people who have lived their lives with the pain of having being abused and helpless at the mercy of 'Gods' servants.

We would have had far fewer people who were trapped in appalling marriages and the damage that did to them and their children.

We would have abortion and would be horrified at the thought that the State would drag a 14 year old rape victim to court to try and force her to give birth to her rapist's child.

We wouldn't have had to appeal to Europe to legalise homosexuality.

We wouldn't have needed Europe to exert pressure in order for women to be given equal rights.

All those children forceably taken off their mothers and sent out of the country to 'good Catholic families' - where would they be now?
Some of them wouldn't exist- this is true. Indeed, some of them wouldn't have been conceived as we would have had contraception.

We would be probably be a united island as the Unionists wouldn't have had to (rightly) fear Rome Rule. Think about that - No Enniskillen bomb, No Omagh bomb, No Bloody Sunday, No Shankill Butchers, No Warrington bomb, No Brighton bomb, No Hyde Park bomb, No Dublin bomb = No 'Troubles'.


Have a look at our European neighbours and how their civil societies developed without the influence of the Vatican over reproductive rights, education, marriage, human relationships, health care etc etc and tell me that Ireland - and the Irish - wouldn't be vastly different.

I think that sometimes people are surrounded by the trees to such an extent that they can't comprehend just how big the woods really are.

Kiwi in IE

NIMAN wrote: »

I am Catholic by birth

Catholicism is a religion not a nationality!

As an a foreigner looking at the Irish relationship with the RCC from the outside in, rather than vice versa, my impression is that Catholicism is an insidious poison which continously holds an otherwise great country back.

NIMAN

When I say I am Catholic by birth, I mean that because I was born to 2 Catholic parents then it was already pre-decided for me. Thats how religion works. If I had happened to be born in another part of NI then I would be a Protestant.

I did not choose to be a Catholic.

As for the 'usual events'. Its like a lot of Catholic people in this country. Church attendances are dropping steadily, but we all go to the weddings, funerals, christenings, baptisms etc out of duty and fear of causing offence. When I am in Church I rattle out the lines like I always did, although some of its changed and I don't know the new bits!

lazygal

NIMAN wrote: »

we all go to the weddings, funerals, christenings, baptisms etc out of duty and fear of causing offence. When I am in Church I rattle out the lines like I always did, although some of its changed and I don't know the new bits!

I do not go to christenings or anything where children are being signed up to lifelong promises like communions/confirmations. Yes this has caused waves with family and friends, but I'm not going to lend my public support to those ceremonies. Weddings/funerals are for adults who, in many cases, either should know better or don't want to cause a fuss with relatives who are religious. Not everyone trots along and chants with the crowd.

Bannasidhe

NIMAN wrote: »

When I say I am Catholic by birth, I mean that because I was born to 2 Catholic parents then it was already pre-decided for me. Thats how religion works. If I had happened to be born in another part of NI then I would be a Protestant.

I did not choose to be a Catholic.

As for the 'usual events'. Its like a lot of Catholic people in this country. Church attendances are dropping steadily, but we all go to the weddings, funerals, christenings, baptisms etc out of duty and fear of causing offence. When I am in Church I rattle out the lines like I always did, although some of its changed and I don't know the new bits!

That is how religion is perpetuated. Because 'everyone' just goes along with it.

However, what I was really commenting on was your statement that Ireland would be the same if the RCC hadn't gotten it's claws into our State institutions and mechanisms.

Kiwi in IE

NIMAN wrote: »

When I say I am Catholic by birth, I mean that because I was born to 2 Catholic parents then it was already pre-decided for me. Thats how religion works. If I had happened to be born in another part of NI then I would be a Protestant.

I did not choose to be a Catholic.

Yes but assuming you are an adult who has reached the age of majority, you choose it now? Otherwise you would say you are not Catholic?

Being born to two Catholic parents does not necessarily make one Catholic. I'd say a good number who frequent this forum were born to two Catholic parents, but are Atheist or Agnostic, not Catholic.

NIMAN

When I said about how I wondered if my life would be any different, Church or no Church, I did not mean this actual nation, but our individual lives. I know if the Church was totally wiped out of existence, my life and the lives of my children would be no different. I would act exactly the same, and they would be rared and educated just as well with no religion or organisation selling religion.

Of course the Church has damaged Ireland and its people as a nation, that goes without saying. It has dished out some evil for something that is meant to be a good thing.

As for being a Catholic, of course I am not really, probably most agnostic. But I still 'go along with it' for an easy life. I got married in a church because both sets of parents would have been religious. We could have got a civil wedding but it honestly would not have been worth the hassle.

And do you who think I should abandon Catholicism officially have children? Because if we were to raise your children as being of no faith then you would struggle big time to get them educated, especially where I live. There are no non-religious affiliated schools within 1hrs drive. Its all well and good making a stand against religion, but sometimes real world practicalities come first. When my children get to a reasonable age and should they want to adandon 'their faith' then they won't find any resistance from me.

Sarky

You pretend to be Catholic out of fear? Sounds about right.

b318isp

You know, if this happens we may lose some of the good stuff that priest actually do. The time they spend with the elderly, ill and dying (and their families) will be gone. They can be a source of good moral guidance when applied correctly e.g. as part of philosophy in schools. They can take on the role of counsellor for those who do not go to others, for whatever reason.

The thought of some of these functions be taken over by some form of social services, leaves me a little cold to be honest. Despite not having a religious bone in my body, the value of the good priests out there should not be overlooked.

NIMAN

Sarky wrote: »

You pretend to be Catholic out of fear? Sounds about right.

I would say more 'out of convenience'.

Can I ask, do you have children?

lazygal

NIMAN wrote: »

When my children get to a reasonable age and should they want to adandon 'their faith' then they won't find any resistance from me.

The church will not allow your children to abandon the faith you are indoctrinating them in, and will cite canon law as to why they will continue to count them as part of their cohort, regardless of their wishes.


It's because people like you go along with things like catholic weddings, christenings and chanting for an easy life that people like me and others are having to negotiate our way through having our children indoctrinated in schools we pay for, against our wishes.

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

I would say more 'out of convenience'.

Can I ask, do you have children?

Plenty of people in this forum have children, and a number of them have got them out of religion

NIMAN

Sorry but you can't blame me for how you school your children.