"Ireland’s priests will have almost disappeared in 20 years"

NIMAN

bluewolf wrote: »

Plenty of people in this forum have children, and a number of them have got them out of religion

How are they schooled?

Sarky

NIMAN wrote: »

I would say more 'out of convenience'.

Can I ask, do you have children?

No, I have enough problems to deal with without adding kids to the mix. I suspect if I ever do end up have kids, I'd damn well fight for their right to a superstition-free education. Hell, I'm calling for that right now, because it's the right thing to do. Convenient? Not a bit. Doing the right thing rarely is.

NIMAN

Sarky wrote: »

No, I have enough problems to deal with without adding kids to the mix. I suspect if I ever do end up have kids, I'd damn well fight for their right to a superstition-free education. Hell, I'm calling for that right now, because it's the right thing to do. Convenient? Not a bit. Doing the right thing rarely is.

And I would be the first to agree with you 100%, I would love the church to hand over control of every single school in this country, but in the meantime, I have no option but to have my children educated in a so-called Catholic controlled school, whether I like it or not.

Sometimes the real world comes before your wishes, thats life.

lazygal

NIMAN wrote: »

Sorry but you can't blame me for how you school your children.

The school system is run in 94% of cases by the Catholic Church. People who christen and indoctrinate their children for sake of an easy life, as you've said you've done, contribute to a massive amount of the continuing dominance.


Have you ever wondered whether your children will be annoyed that you signed them up for a faith they can never leave before they had the capacity to decide if it was something they wanted?

NIMAN

lazygal wrote: »

The school system is run in 94% of cases by the Catholic Church. People who christen and indoctrinate their children for sake of an easy life, as you've said you've done, contribute to a massive amount of the continuing dominance.


Have you ever wondered whether your children will be annoyed that you signed them up for a faith they can never leave before they had the capacity to decide if it was something they wanted?

I am sure my children will be no more annoyed at me than I was at my parents for making them Catholic i.e,. not at all. Hopefully I will do enough other things for them in life that will balance out the damage!

Once again I will ask, maybe I will get an answer to the questions this time:

1) Do you have children?
2) Do you think I should stand by my convictions and not send my children to a Catholic primary school? In my case I have no other option, so they would be uneducated. That would do more damage to them than being 'Catholic' imho.

lazygal

NIMAN wrote: »

Once again I will ask, maybe I will get an answer to the questions this time:

1) Do you have children?
2) Do you think I should stand by my convictions and not send my children to a Catholic primary school? In my case I have no other option, so they would be uneducated.

I do have children.

I may have to send them to a local catholic school. However, I would like to think myself and my husband will teach them convictions and principles aren't cloaks to be cast off for the sake of convenience, and that just because 'everyone else' is doing something, doesn't mean we go along with it for an easy life.

Bannasidhe

NIMAN wrote: »

When I said about how I wondered if my life would be any different, Church or no Church, I did not mean this actual nation, but our individual lives. I know if the Church was totally wiped out of existence, my life and the lives of my children would be no different. I would act exactly the same, and they would be rared and educated just as well with no religion or organisation selling religion.

Of course the Church has damaged Ireland and its people as a nation, that goes without saying. It has dished out some evil for something that is meant to be a good thing.

As for being a Catholic, of course I am not really, probably most agnostic. But I still 'go along with it' for an easy life. I got married in a church because both sets of parents would have been religious. We could have got a civil wedding but it honestly would not have been worth the hassle.

And do you who think I should abandon Catholicism officially have children? Because if we were to raise your children as being of no faith then you would struggle big time to get them educated, especially where I live. There are no non-religious affiliated schools within 1hrs drive. Its all well and good making a stand against religion, but sometimes real world practicalities come first. When my children get to a reasonable age and should they want to adandon 'their faith' then they won't find any resistance from me.

Well, I brought my unbaptised son to live in Ireland in 1993 and he went to school, did his Leaving Cert (didn't do Junior as we were in Australia so he did their School Cert) when there was no such thing as Educate Together - if it was possible to 'abandon Catholicism' and still get an education 20 years ago - it is possible now.
As has been pointed out before we have a growing non-Catholic population many of whom have children - are those children not being educated?

It has also been pointed out that it can be requested that children do not partake in religious instruction.

Interesting that you say your children are free to 'abandon' their faith - did they have a choice about 'choosing' that faith in the first place? No. You decided that for them, just as your parent's decided for you. My parent's also decided for me - but I don't feel bound by their decision so I defected. I also don't feel bound by their decision to vote for FF in every election. Or their plan that I should be a heterosexual school teacher. That's the thing about being an adult - we decide for ourselves.

As for you being the same person - would you be exactly the same as you are now if you grew up in a Muslim country? If not, why?

Don't you think the fact that a specific religious ethos permeates the society you grew up in affected you in any way at all?

I genuinely find this strange given that you yourself have said that you go along with that very same religious ethos for an easy life.

I really can't understand how on the one hand you say you would be the same person if the RCC did not have the level of influence over Irish society as it has, yet on the other hand say that although you are agnostic you identify as Catholic, had your children baptised as Catholic, publicly participate in Catholic rituals on occasion because it is easier to go along with it - this begs the question if the RCC were not so dominant would there be any need for you to feel you had to go along with it?

Do you really not think a situation where you did not feel the need to publicly conform to something you do not really believe would have had an impact on you as a person?

NIMAN

lazygal wrote: »

I do have children.

I may have to send them to a local catholic school. However, I would like to think myself and my husband will teach them convictions and principles aren't cloaks to be cast off for the sake of convenience, and that just because 'everyone else' is doing something, doesn't mean we go along with it for an easy life.

I could have typed that exact line myself, so are we really that different?

Can I ask are your children baptised Catholic? I assume not?
What will you do if they are refused entry at school?

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

When I said about how I wondered if my life would be any different, Church or no Church

Is the NI in your name for Northern Ireland? If so I can't believe you're not trolling.

lazygal

NIMAN wrote: »

I could have typed that exact line myself, so are we really that different?

Can I ask are your children baptised Catholic? I assume not?
What will you do if they are refused entry at school?

Why would I baptise them? Me and my husband don't believe any of the teachings.

We chose to live in an area where we have access to several schools. We are guaranteed a place in a Catholic school as we live close by, and have been assured of a place in the ET school (but we made sure we had backup). Schooling was a top priority for us when we decided to have children, so we located accordingly. If I had no option I would homeschool or seek out a private school.

NIMAN

Deleted User wrote: »

Is the NI in your name for Northern Ireland? If so I can't believe you're not trolling.

Yes it is, and yes of course the past would have been different.
I meant from this exact moment on, I don't think my life would change at all if the church suddenly vanished. My own personal life, not the whole NI situation (which would immediately get a whole lot better if religion ceased to exist).

I am not trolling, honestly.

Bannasidhe

NIMAN wrote: »

Yes it is, and yes of course the past would have been different.
I meant from this exact moment on, I don't think my life would change at all if the church suddenly vanished. My own personal life, not the whole NI situation (which would immediately get a whole lot better if religion ceased to exist).

I am not trolling, honestly.

But if the past was different - you would be different.

We are in many regards products of our environment and get our cues from the society around us. Ireland would have been a very different place to grow up - ergo we would all be different to some extent.

Woogle

"Ireland’s priests will have almost disappeared in 20 years"

Quite likely, but surely this news is about 20 years old ?

Penn

NIMAN wrote: »

And I would be the first to agree with you 100%, I would love the church to hand over control of every single school in this country, but in the meantime, I have no option but to have my children educated in a so-called Catholic controlled school, whether I like it or not.

Sometimes the real world comes before your wishes, thats life.

But don't you see how circular that is?

Church controls most of the schools
People feel like they have no option but to go along with it
Children baptised and put down as Catholic on Census
Church uses these figures to say there are X number of Catholics in that area
Church controls most of the schools
People feel like they have no option but to go along with it
Children baptised and put down as Catholic on Census
Church uses these figures to say there are X number of Catholics in that area
Church controls most of the schools
etc etc

Only by people breaking out of that cycle will anything change. You'd love the church to hand over control of every single school in this country, yet you're helping them do the complete opposite.

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

Yes it is, and yes of course the past would have been different.
I meant from this exact moment on, I don't think my life would change at all if the church suddenly vanished. My own personal life, not the whole NI situation (which would immediately get a whole lot better if religion ceased to exist).

I am not trolling, honestly.

Ah ok, we're to ignore the last few hundred years and their effects. :pac: Fair enough. There's plenty else to be said but others will cover that.

kylith

NIMAN wrote: »

When I said about how I wondered if my life would be any different, Church or no Church, I did not mean this actual nation, but our individual lives.

Well, my mother wouldn't have been beaten for being left handed, so there's that. With about 90 minutes a week freed up in schools, since they would't be teaching the kids prayers by rote, the rates of numeracy and literacy would probably go up. Kids wouldn't lose literally weeks of schooling to prepare for sacraments either.

As for being a Catholic, of course I am not really, probably most agnostic. But I still 'go along with it' for an easy life. I got married in a church because both sets of parents would have been religious. We could have got a civil wedding but it honestly would not have been worth the hassle.

And do you who think I should abandon Catholicism officially have children? Because if we were to raise your children as being of no faith then you would struggle big time to get them educated, especially where I live. There are no non-religious affiliated schools within 1hrs drive. Its all well and good making a stand against religion, but sometimes real world practicalities come first. When my children get to a reasonable age and should they want to adandon 'their faith' then they won't find any resistance from me.

Yes, so we should all just raise our children as catholics because pretending to be something that you're not for the sake of an easy life is the best way to change the status quo :rolleyes:

Until non-Catholic parents start demanding that that their children aren't taught religion in schools, until they start demanding secular schools, until people start telling their parents "You had your wedding, now I'm having mine and I'm doing it my way. If you want a church do, renew your own wedding vows", until then nothing will change.

Sure it was probably more hassle than it was worth for Rosa Parks to sit up the front of the bus, and it was probably more hassle than it was worth for Sylvia Pankhurst to campaign for women to have the vote. But they did it, they put up with the hassle, they were the vanguard and the world changed and became better.

hfallada

In fairness in most suburbs of Dublin the churches could be merged as they are practically side by side in some areas. There is too many churches in the city center of the amount of catholics there now days

kylith

NIMAN wrote: »

1) Do you have children?

Are only people who have children allowed to have an opinion on the matter? Do those of us who have yet to reproduce, but who will in future, not get to have a say?

NIMAN wrote: »

2) Do you think I should stand by my convictions and not send my children to a Catholic primary school? In my case I have no other option, so they would be uneducated. That would do more damage to them than being 'Catholic' imho.

Yes, I think everyone should have the courage of their convictions. Did you never consider telling the school "We're not Christians. Please give my children some work/drawing to do while you're conducting religious instruction with the other children"?

Bannasidhe

kylith wrote: »

Well, my mother wouldn't have been beaten for being left handed, so there's that. With about 90 minutes a week freed up in schools, since they would't be teaching the kids prayers by rote, the rates of numeracy and literacy would probably go up. Kids wouldn't lose literally weeks of schooling to prepare for sacraments either.


Yes, so we should all just raise our children as catholics because pretending to be something that you're not for the sake of an easy life is the best way to change the status quo :rolleyes:

Until non-Catholic parents start demanding that that their children aren't taught religion in schools, until they start demanding secular schools, until people start telling their parents "You had your wedding, now I'm having mine and I'm doing it my way. If you want a church do, renew your own wedding vows", until then nothing will change.

Sure it was probably more hassle than it was worth for Rosa Parks to sit up the front of the bus, and it was probably more hassle than it was worth for Sylvia Pankhurst to campaign for women to have the vote. But they did it, they put up with the hassle, they were the vanguard and the world changed and became better.

Personally it would have been far less hassle for me to continue to live in the UK then to return to Ireland in the early 90s as an out Lesbian with an unbaptised son.

Thing is, I'm Irish and I wanted my son to be Irish too. I wanted him to go blacka picking in September, to have long vowel sounds and working knowledge of the many uses of the word 'langer', to play find the warm spot in the sea off West Cork, to roar for Munster at Thomond Park, to participate in the ritual of 'doing Pana' like his mother, grandparents and great grandparents before him, to stand proud and say 'I'm from Cork like', to grow up on the island of his ancestors surrounded by a mad extended family - not in exile in a foreign land cut off from his roots where 'family' consists of people you see once a year by getting on a plane.
To do all of those things that are great about being Irish.

I have never considered Catholicism and Irish identity to be the same thing and I will defy anyone who says it is to my dying day - regardless of the hassle. I will gladly put up with the hassle for my child and my child's children.

NIMAN

That's

kylith wrote: »

Are only people who have children allowed to have an opinion on the matter? Do those of us who have yet to reproduce, but who will in future, not get to have a say?

Yes, I think everyone should have the courage of their convictions. Did you never consider telling the school "We're not Christians. Please give my children some work/drawing to do while you're conducting religious instruction with the other children"?

Of course those with no children are entitled to their opinion, but you don't face some of the problems that parents in Ireland do. if you had children it might alter your opinions and decisions. I was asking to see how those with children have got their children educated if they don't agree with the whole Catholic thing.

and as for asking the school to let my children do something else, well the big problem is that my children not even be at school to have that decision to ,make. I am fairly sure that if my kids were non-Catholic they would not be admitted to the local school. That's real life that I live in, unfortunately.

Sarky

You didn't try though, did you? You'll never know.

NIMAN

Let's just say I have a good idea.

kylith

NIMAN wrote: »

and as for asking the school to let my children do something else, well the big problem is that my children not even be at school to have that decision to ,make.

Sorry, could you rephrase that? I'm having difficulty working out what you're saying.

I am fairly sure that if my kids were non-Catholic they would not be admitted to the local school. That's real life that I live in, unfortunately.

So your Local Authority has no provision for non-Catholic kids? What do the Buddhists, Muslims, Sikhs, et al do?

lazygal

NIMAN wrote: »

I am fairly sure that if my kids were non-Catholic they would not be admitted to the local school. That's real life that I live in, unfortunately.

Fairly sure? Did you check? Or did you just decide it was easier to indoctrinate them just in case, for an easy life?

Kidchameleon

lazygal wrote: »

It's because people like you go along with things like catholic weddings, christenings and chanting for an easy life that people like me and others are having to negotiate our way through having our children indoctrinated in schools we pay for, against our wishes.

Thats a tad hypocritical dont you think?

Bannasidhe

NIMAN wrote: »

That's


Of course those with no children are entitled to their opinion, but you don't face some of the problems that parents in Ireland do. if you had children it might alter your opinions and decisions. I was asking to see how those with children have got their children educated if they don't agree with the whole Catholic thing.

and as for asking the school to let my children do something else, well the big problem is that my children not even be at school to have that decision to ,make. I am fairly sure that if my kids were non-Catholic they would not be admitted to the local school. That's real life that I live in, unfortunately.

As Sarky said you didn't try so you don't really know. You posited that 5 years down the line you would have problems so decided to go with the flow and do what 'everyone' else does. Imagine if you and 'everyone' else hadn't taken the easy way - do you really think government wouldn't have had to act to ensure a load of non-Catholic children got school places?

How do you think COI, Presbyterian, Methodist, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, JW, Mormon, Hindu etc etc children managed to get an education if one absolutely must be a Catholic in order to ensure a place in a school?

I see our Indian neighbour's son trotting off to the local National School every morning with our Polish neighbour's son. Neither are Catholic (no- not all Poles are Catholic ).

You are kicking the can down the road and leaving it for your children or their children to sort it out because you don't want the hassle.

Now that is Irish.

Bannasidhe

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Thats a tad hypocritical dont you think?

Failing to see how.

Explain?

lazygal

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Thats a tad hypocritical dont you think?

Why?

robindch

NIMAN wrote: »

Let's just say I have a good idea.

I didn't realize that I was the first person to request a religion-free education for my kid in her Montessori school in South Dublin, but once I'd asked, they seemed mostly pretty ok with it.

That said, one evening, my kid came home doing the hands-together, eyes facing upwards but closed thing, humming quietly, so the following morning, I trotted, ever-so politely (danger sign) into the head mistress's office to ask where my kid might have picked up something like that. She said she'd look into it and get back to me, but not before delivering the following gem:

A Montessori Headmistress wrote:

Well, we do cater for all religions. The local parish priest is a lovely guy. Gives the kids sweets and everything. And we had an imam in here recently too. But there's nobody like you here. Sorry, I mean nobody with opinions like yours in the school.

Nobody in that part of South Dublin is atheist or agnostic, where church attendance is beneath 10%?

Really?

MrPudding

Sarky wrote: »

Oh no, you said it. I have the feeling something terrible is about to happen.

As long as no one is stupid enough to say 6%, 6%, 6% we should be ok.


Oh bugger...

MrP