Transfer Thread Off Topic

Smithwicks Man · 10-06-2013 1:49pm #1

Liam O wrote: »

Wilshere is the only definite to make the United team. Cazorla probably would but Kagawa is very similar to him unsure if he would. I'd rather develop Smalling and Jones than put Koscielny in even though I'm a big fan of him, Evans has been excellent the last couple of years too. Chesney can barely hold down his place in the Arsenal team, how does he get into United? Your dismissal of Welbeck shows a lack of understanding of how United are successful. Players like Welbeck who are happy to do a job and be a squad player have been a huge part of the success of the team.

Cazorla would also be a definite imo. Walcott is also an improvement on Valencia/Nani/Young.

Saying "I'd rather develop Smalling and Jones than put Koscielny in" makes no sense in this regard. We're not talking about if it would be a good idea for United to buy Koscielny, we're talking bout whether or not he'd be an upgrade on what they have - which I'd say he is. Arteta could also stake a claim for getting in the team in central midfield. You can't say "He wouldn't get ahead of Wilshere and Carrick". Think of it as each player moving individually. Think of it like Cavani, Falcao, RVP and Suarez moving to Arsenal, they'd all get in the time but not at the same time obviously.

My understanding of how United are successful is that 1. Ferguson greatly helped things by making sure the players gave it their all every game (simple in theory but hard to do) 2. The league was of a poor standard this season especially. 3. United have a strong, well balanced squad.

My understanding of Wellbeck is that 1. He's young and has potential. 2. He's English and so is very overrated in the media. 3. His work-rate is very goodbut his ability on the ball is lacking and his finishing leaves a lot to be desired.

My opinion - He can improve but he's average enough at the minute.
This is just my opinion though.

Kylo Ren · 10-06-2013 1:51pm

Walcott is certainly not an improvement over Nani.

Blatter · 10-06-2013 1:54pm

I would also say Koscielny is no upgrade on Vidic or Ferdinand.

He's a good player but I don't think he's at their level.

Smithwicks Man · 10-06-2013 2:00pm

I know.. it's ludicrous to think that any Arsenal player could get into that magnificent United side :eek:

This is just my opinion. You could easily argue that adding Walcott and Koscielny to United's team would improve the team. Same could be said for Wilshere, Arteta and Cazorla.

Mitch Connor · 10-06-2013 2:03pm

From the Arsenal team I would take Wilshere in a heart beat and that would be only first 11 change I would make without further thought.

Definitely not the keeper, De Gea is better.

I wouldn't take Koscielny over Rio or Vidic (assuming fitness) and as he wouldn't come as a back up I see no reason to select over Smalling/Evans/Jones. Smalling and Evans are two I rate a lot. Koscielny is a very good player though, really improved last season imo. Rafael over Sagna and Evra over Gibbs/Santos for definite. Haven't seen enough of Monreal to make a choice there, would go with Evra for proven worth.

Already taking Wilshere.

Carrick over Arteta, for better defensive work.

I love Cazorla but also love Kagawa. Would imagine a neutral would go for Cazorla - a better season than Kagawa, by a mile - though I don't think Cazorla would have done any better at United than Kagawa did - just a position/player Fergie had no idea how to use.

Based on production and effort last season alone I would take Walcott over Valencia/Nani/Young, but based on previous seasons I would go with Nani or Valencia over Walcott.

Podolski or Hernandez/Rooney? Hernandez or Rooney please.

Giroud or RVP? RVP, quite obviously.

As a combined team - taking out loyalty to a player (so assuming I am not replacing a player, just buying a new team Monaco style...)

DDG
Rafael---Ferdinand---Vidic---Evra

Carrick

Wilshere---- Cazorla
Walcott

Kagawa

RVP

That position I have Kagawa in though..... I dunno. Not sure. None of the United wingers bar Giggs would deserve a place, Rooney isn't great out there, don't think Podolski or Gervinho deserve a place either. Maybe Hernandez or Rooney in a more tradtional forward role. If buying this summer you'd probably go Koscielny over Rio - just based on the longevity of the trasfer, Koscielny is a better long term bet, obviously.

Kylo Ren · 10-06-2013 2:05pm

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

I know.. it's ludicrous to think that any Arsenal player could get into that magnificent United side :eek:

This is just my opinion. You could easily argue that adding Walcott and Koscielny to United's team would improve the team.

Yeah, they would improve the team, by being on the bench.

Same could be said for Wilshere, Arteta and Cazorla.

Wilshere and Cazorla would definitely get in. I'm not too sure on Arteta.

3hn2givr7mx1sc · 10-06-2013 2:06pm

DDG
Rafael-Ferdinand-Vidic-Evra

Carrick----Jones
Nani

Kagawa

RVP---Rooney

Probably United's strongest 11 at the minute, although Jones is arguable. Honestly, tell me how many Arsenal players you think would get into that team? The only change I'd make is Wilshere in for Jones.

Blatter · 10-06-2013 2:07pm

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

I know.. it's ludicrous to think that any Arsenal player could get into that magnificent United side :eek:

This is just my opinion. You could easily argue that adding Walcott and Koscielny to United's team would improve the team. Same could be said for Wilshere, Arteta and Cazorla.

Not at all. Wilshere, Arteta, Cazorla, Walcott would get plenty of games at United. The only definite starter I'd have is Wilshere though.

Kylo Ren · 10-06-2013 2:09pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

DDG
Rafael---Ferdinand---Vidic---Evra
Carrick
Wilshere---- Cazorla
Walcott
Kagawa
RVP

I'd agree with this, except for Walcott over Nani.

Morzadec · 10-06-2013 2:10pm

baz2009 wrote: »

DDG
Rafael-Ferdinand-Vidic-Evra
Carrick----Jones
Nani
Kagawa
RVP---Rooney

Probably United's strongest 11 at the minute, although Jones is arguable. Honestly, tell me how many Arsenal players you think would get into that team? The only change I'd make is Wilshere in for Jones.

So that means you think that Nani > Cazorla? :eek:

Pepe LeFrits · 10-06-2013 2:10pm

Wilshere had a very poor season. He wasn't even getting into Arsenal's best team at the end of the season.

Similarly, Arsenal conceded 6 goals less than United did last season so Arsenal not having any defenders worthy (even of the bench) seems like selection based on reputation more than anything else.

Skylinehead · 10-06-2013 2:12pm

baz2009 wrote: »

DDG
Rafael-Ferdinand-Vidic-Evra
Carrick----Jones
Nani
Kagawa
RVP---Rooney

Probably United's strongest 11 at the minute, although Jones is arguable. Honestly, tell me how many Arsenal players you think would get into that team? The only change I'd make is Wilshere in for Jones.

Cazorla for Kagawa obviously, seeing as Kagawa can't play on the wing. Walcott for Nani wouldn't be outlandish. And seeing as Vidic/Ferdinand are getting on a bit, and at least in Vidic's case losing fitness, Koscielny would definitely go in. Sagna from a few years back would be better than Rafael, but he was rubbish last year.

Fuzzy_Dunlop · 10-06-2013 2:13pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

From the Arsenal team I would take Wilshere in a heart beat and that would be only first 11 change I would make without further thought.

Definitely not the keeper, De Gea is better.

I wouldn't take Koscielny over Rio or Vidic (assuming fitness) and as he wouldn't come as a back up I see no reason to select over Smalling/Evans/Jones. Smalling and Evans are two I rate a lot. Koscielny is a very good player though, really improved last season imo. Rafael over Sagna and Evra over Gibbs/Santos for definite. Haven't seen enough of Monreal to make a choice there, would go with Evra for proven worth.

Already taking Wilshere.

Carrick over Arteta, for better defensive work.

I love Cazorla but also love Kagawa. Would imagine a neutral would go for Cazorla - a better season than Kagawa, by a mile - though I don't think Cazorla would have done any better at United than Kagawa did - just a position/player Fergie had no idea how to use.

Based on production and effort last season alone I would take Walcott over Valencia/Nani/Young, but based on previous seasons I would go with Nani or Valencia over Walcott.

Podolski or Hernandez/Rooney? Hernandez or Rooney please.

Giroud or RVP? RVP, quite obviously.

As a combined team - taking out loyalty to a player (so assuming I am not replacing a player, just buying a new team Monaco style...)
DDG
Rafael---Ferdinand---Vidic---Evra
Carrick
Wilshere---- Cazorla
Walcott
Kagawa
RVP

That position I have Kagawa in though..... I dunno. Not sure. None of the United wingers bar Giggs would deserve a place, Rooney isn't great out there, don't think Podolski or Gervinho deserve a place either. Maybe Hernandez or Rooney in a more tradtional forward role. If buying this summer you'd probably go Koscielny over Rio - just based on the longevity of the trasfer, Koscielny is a better long term bet, obviously.

I'd say that's about right. Only thing however I would say is that Arsenal's defensive record in the league last year was better than United's so having an all United back 5 doesn't quite add up. Kos and Gibbs would be the ones in contention I suppose.

Donnielighto · 10-06-2013 2:18pm

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Wilshere had a very poor season. He wasn't even getting into Arsenal's best team at the end of the season.

Similarly, Arsenal conceded 6 goals less than United did last season so Arsenal not having any defenders worthy (even of the bench) seems like selection based on reputation more than anything else.

a lot of the goals united shipped were were without 1st choice cbs and with a very open midfield, jack alone would sort that out

Mitch Connor · 10-06-2013 2:18pm

Keno 92 wrote: »

I'd agree with this, except for Walcott over Nani.

Possible reasons and excuses aside - I don't see how the performances of any United winger last season apart from Giggs could argue a place over Walcott.

I'm a big fan of Nani, and I hope he stays and rediscovers some form under a manager that may not hate him, but he was as poor as Valencia and Young last season, or not much better.

It would depend, imo, on whether you are taking this on last season, or many seasons. I was taking it on last season.

Smithwicks Man · 10-06-2013 2:21pm

baz2009 wrote: »

DDG
Rafael-Ferdinand-Vidic-Evra
Carrick----Jones
Nani
Kagawa
RVP---Rooney

Probably United's strongest 11 at the minute, although Jones is arguable. Honestly, tell me how many Arsenal players you think would get into that team? The only change I'd make is Wilshere in for Jones.

The problem there is that that formation is suited to United's players.

DDG

Rafael-Ferdinand-Koscielny---Evra

Carrick----Arteta
Walcott

Wilshere

Cazorla

RVP

You can argue this for that but as a neutral, this formation wouldn't be too far off the mark for what I'd take as my starting 11 if I could choose from both squads for next season.

Jax Teller · 10-06-2013 2:24pm

Wilshere would most likely get a game in midfield for United but not in the hole he hasn't played enough there to be considered better than Kagawa .

Bounty Hunter · 10-06-2013 2:28pm

...........................DDG

Sagna

Kos

Vidic

Evra

Carrick

Wilshere

Kagawa

----Walcott

Cazorla

RVP

alternatively drop Kagawa to the bench and have Rooney in an AM/SS role behind RVP. Plus Raf & Monreal are very close to starting for me, when fit and on form i'd prefer Sagna/Evra still though. Also not 100% who thw 3rd/4th choice CB/CM id pick in a squad would be (few equally good players left at that point).

Scyz, Monreal, Rafael, Ferdinand, 2nd CB, Rooney, Arteta, 2nd CM, Nani, Hernandez, Podolski

Blatter · 10-06-2013 2:30pm

I think using defensive records as proof that individual defenders are better/as good as defenders in another team is very flawed. There is a lot more to consider than individuals in the back 4. It's important to factor in how well the team defends as a unit and how settled the backline (and team in general) was.

For example Bayern had an extraordinary defensive record last season despite the fact that their centre backs are not top tier. As a unit, they were just awesome defensively.

Mitch Connor · 10-06-2013 2:31pm

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote: »

I'd say that's about right. Only thing however I would say is that Arsenal's defensive record in the league last year was better than United's so having an all United back 5 doesn't quite add up. Kos and Gibbs would be the ones in contention I suppose.

I'd say take a look at the United defensive stats from December through to the league being won - when we finally got a settled back line, or options, and Fergie stuck with DDG in goals. We improved MASSIVELY in comparison to the first half of the season.

Discounting the West Brom game when all the players appeared to not care and hungover...

we conceeded 28 goals in the first half of the season and 10 in the next 18 league games. Even including the west brom game it is still 13 goals less conceeded.

(Arsenal conceeded 21 in the first half of the season and 16 in the second half of the season). Including the shocker at West Brom and United still conceded one less goal in the second half of the season

Smithwicks Man · 10-06-2013 2:33pm

Detailed stats comparison between Carrick and Arteta - http://www.eplindex.com/32048/mikel-arteta-unsung-hero.html

An unsung hero indeed.

Personally I'd have Rafael ahead of Sagna, he offers nothing in the final third imo.

On a side note, what would tevez's best position be? Up top as a lone strike? Can he play wide right/left/ behind two strikers?

He's being linked with Milan again and I haven't seen enough of him this season to know where his best position would be

GavRedKing · 10-06-2013 2:54pm

Whats the point of this thread again?

Smithwicks Man · 10-06-2013 3:08pm

GavRedKing wrote: »

Whats the point of this thread again?

It was just for Off Topic stuff from the transfer thread cause it kept getting clogged up with OT discussions such as "United linked with Walcott" - "Walcott would never get in united's team, only 1 Arsenal player would" and then the thread turing into a complete OT discussion like it has been the past few days.

Delete away if you want, just thought it would be useful to keep the main summer transfer thread from getting clogged up!

Pepe LeFrits · 10-06-2013 3:35pm

Blatter wrote: »

I think using defensive records as proof that individual defenders are better/as good as defenders in another team is very flawed. There is a lot more to consider than individuals in the back 4. It's important to factor in how well the team defends as a unit and how settled the backline (and team in general) was.

I agree, but when the team with the better defensive record doesn't get a single mention across the back five plus sitting midfielder, it raises eyebrows. Instead it's all mitigating factors, Fergie wasn't picking De Gea, players were out injured, as if Arsenal didn't have similar issues.

United obviously have a better squad, that's why they're champions, but I suspect if SAF had given permission to take any Arsenal player he wanted at the end of the season he'd have taken a lot more than just Wilshere.

Mitch Connor · 10-06-2013 4:01pm

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

I agree, but when the team with the better defensive record doesn't get a single mention across the back five plus sitting midfielder, it raises eyebrows. Instead it's all mitigating factors, Fergie wasn't picking De Gea, players were out injured, as if Arsenal didn't have similar issues.

United obviously have a better squad, that's why they're champions, but I suspect if SAF had given permission to take any Arsenal player he wanted at the end of the season he'd have taken a lot more than just Wilshere.

I reckon he would too - Cazorla, Arteta, Sagna, Monreal/Gibbs, Walcott, Wilshere would improve the United squad a lot. I just disagree that they all would improve the first team. I think, player for player, Fergie would take the first 11 united players over the first 11 arsenal players, in most cases.

I don't think the gap between the players is vast, but I don't think Arteta for Carrick would improve United. I don't think Kos for Rio would improve United (short term). Maybe Sagna for Rafael would, but my personal opinion is only Mad Zab at City was a better right back than Raf last season. The wingers, which for United were absolutely shocking last season, would be the area I think Walcott could get in, but not Gervinho (imo).

My brother is an Arsenal fan so I have had this arguement a lot - despite my feelings on the first 11 of United being better - I do rate the arsenal players on a skill basis. We talk about the arsenal team in terms of talent and we'd say most of the players are absolutely great options to have. We'd even praise Jenkinson (who hasn't featured in this discussion) on the basis he is a local lad who loves the club and you can see it in how he plays - sticks up for his team mates and fair play to him. My issue with the arsenal side is not a talent one, it is a mentality one. I reckon you put Adams or Vieira in the Arsenal team and they'd be a lot closer to the top. Not enough hard nosed winners in the Arsenal team, imo.

I don't mean my selections to be a slight on the arsenal players - I can see arguments at full back and on the wings, along with Wilshere being a certainty. GK, CB, Carrick, RVP are the certainties I would take from United right now - for next season alone. My personal pref would be the United full backs over Arsenals, but Walcott and Cazorla added to the team. That last spot I just can't decide on, at all. Rooney/Hernandez/Podolski/Kagawa depending on formation/style to be played.

dfx- · 11-06-2013 1:20am

GavRedKing wrote: »

Whats the point of this thread again?

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

It was just for Off Topic stuff from the transfer thread cause it kept getting clogged up with OT discussions such as "United linked with Walcott" - "Walcott would never get in united's team, only 1 Arsenal player would" and then the thread turing into a complete OT discussion like it has been the past few days.

Delete away if you want, just thought it would be useful to keep the main summer transfer thread from getting clogged up!

It's natural transfer discussion for me. I'll close this and if ever we see the need for it, we can re-open it..

Transfer Thread Off Topic

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