What was Irelands lowest moment?

Fratton Fred

old hippy wrote: »

If it hasn't been mentioned already, the time Combat 18 and co. smashed up Landsdowne back in the 90s. We had a swastika painted outside the shop I was running at the time

More of an English low point than an Irish one imho.

Pyridine

NegativeCreep wrote: »

Ohh I see. If I had recognised him I would have understood

No worries, it was probably my poor delivery!!

Noreen1

Leftist wrote: »

I wonder if there are any other countries in europe that still bang on about **** that happened in the 1600s as if it's important. Desperate to be victims.

Worse single for the current state, was omagh. Or any number of capitulations to the church by the state.

Cromwell ffs.

Oh sure, it was the day the english turned up. Erins potatos weep for me. :rolleyes:

Seriously? The loss of 29 lives, as tragic as it was, is worse than the deaths of tens of thousands?
Your sense of perspective is, er, unusual.

banie01 wrote: »

Of all the event's that stand out in my own lifetimes memory...
Not that I'm ignoring the famine\the plantations.
Our own Irish Diaspora-exodus that is unfortunately repeating itself.
The 70's n 80's economic depression.
The religious scandals and the states collusion or the ongoing financial/political corruptions.

The one that stands out the most for me was the flare up around Drumcree and the Garvaghy Rd from the mid 90's through to the 2000's (granted the parades and contentious nature of that March have been going on a hell of a lot longer)
I was living abroad at the time, and the images of sectarian hate.
Of children being escorted to school by armed police while under torrents of screaming hate filled abuse from adults.
Of 3 children killed in a firebomb attack on their home, a home attacked simply because their mother was a catholic.
Of all the damage and fear and hate that exploded across the north both in Nationalist and loyalist areas that caused huge damage to property, to livelihood and to community relations.

Those images were how many of my friends at the time got their 1st exposure to Ireland.
They were shown virulent and violent hatred and assumed, with what little else they knew of Ireland being confined to news reports of the troubles....
That, those images were Ireland, thats what we as a people were!
Hateful smallminded bigots, who felt nothing wrong with exposing their children to that level of hatred and continuing the cycle ad-infinitum....

The thing is when you take into account the Church and state abuses of our children too....
It seems all too easy to believe that was the truth.

You're confusing Northern Ireland with the Island of Ireland, tbf.
Those of us who didn't live in a conflict zone were as horrified as the rest of the world by those images - and that goes for Catholics, Protestants, A.N. Other Religion - and none.

HansHolzel

Every time the Sindo rolls off the presses the lowest moment gets repeated.

banie01

Noreen1 wrote: »

Seriously? The loss of 29 lives, as tragic as it was, is worse than the deaths of tens of thousands?
Your sense of perspective is, er, unusual.



You're confusing Northern Ireland with the Island of Ireland, tbf.
Those of us who didn't live in a conflict zone were as horrified as the rest of the world by those images - and that goes for Catholics, Protestants, A.N. Other Religion - and none.

No, I'm not!
Or are people born in Northern Ireland no longer entitled to Irish citizenship?
Are those 6 counties somehow removed from ''Irishness'' by virtue of an act of parliment?
And given that the entire thrust of my point was aimed at my perception of Irelands lowest point and that perception garnered by the people of the country I lived in at the time....
Where all the reporting of the incident referred to ''Ireland'' rather than a geopolitcal subsection of the Island governed by the U.K.
In foreign media it wasn't reported as UK terrorism or disturbances, it was and is an ''Irish'' problem regardless of the brand politics those involved espouse.

Sgt Hartman

The Cromwellian invasion which led to the destruction of the Gaelic way of life. The potato famine which decimated the country and drove so many Irish people to the four corners of the Earth. They would be the two biggest low points in Irish history for me.

Deedsie

banie01 wrote: »

No, I'm not!
Or are people born in Northern Ireland no longer entitled to Irish citizenship?
Are those 6 counties somehow removed from ''Irishness'' by virtue of an act of parliment?
And given that the entire thrust of my point was aimed at my perception of Irelands lowest point and that perception garnered by the people of the country I lived in at the time....
Where all the reporting of the incident referred to ''Ireland'' rather than a geopolitcal subsection of the Island governed by the U.K.
In foreign media it wasn't reported as UK terrorism or disturbances, it was and is an ''Irish'' problem regardless of the brand politics those involved espouse.

Well said....

The attitude of a lot of Irish people in the south that Irish people in Northern Ireland are some how less Irish is a low point in Irish history in my opinion. All 1.8 million in Northern Ireland have the right to Irish citizenship if that was their choosing.

The border crossed them, they didn't cross the border.

josip

and they've been cross about it ever since

Grayson

banie01 wrote: »

No, I'm not!
Or are people born in Northern Ireland no longer entitled to Irish citizenship?
Are those 6 counties somehow removed from ''Irishness'' by virtue of an act of parliment?
And given that the entire thrust of my point was aimed at my perception of Irelands lowest point and that perception garnered by the people of the country I lived in at the time....
Where all the reporting of the incident referred to ''Ireland'' rather than a geopolitcal subsection of the Island governed by the U.K.
In foreign media it wasn't reported as UK terrorism or disturbances, it was and is an ''Irish'' problem regardless of the brand politics those involved espouse.

Speaking for rational people here I'd like to say that their actions have nothing to do with us. If we could chop off the north and let it sail away it's be great. The fact that all those idiots on both sides are Irish is an embarrassment to us all. But personally I like to stick my head in the sand and pretend they're "northern irish" and therefore differentiated from us.

HansHolzel

A Sindo buyer to be sure

Deedsie

Grayson wrote: »

Speaking for rational people here I'd like to say that their actions have nothing to do with us. If we could chop off the north and let it sail away it's be great. The fact that all those idiots on both sides are Irish is an embarrassment to us all. But personally I like to stick my head in the sand and pretend they're "northern irish" and therefore differentiated from us.

Ya because rational people always stick their head in the sand when an uncomfortable situation is present. That kinda attitude really grates me, obviously we are all entitled to our own opinion but can you not muster any solidarity or sympathy with fellow Irish people? The nationalist Irish in Northern Ireland have had a pretty ****e time of it for the last 90 years, abandoned by their fellows in the south, mistreated by the unionist majority in the North.

Obviously some nationalists are guilty of terrible terrible things during the troubles and I wouldn't pretend they are not.

Grayson

Deedsie wrote: »

Ya because rational people always stick their head in the sand when an uncomfortable situation is present. That kinda attitude really grates me, obviously we are all entitled to our own opinion but can you not muster any solidarity or sympathy with fellow Irish people? The nationalist Irish in Northern Ireland have had a pretty ****e time of it for the last 90 years, abandoned by their fellows in the south, mistreated by the unionist majority in the North.

Obviously some nationalists are guilty of terrible terrible things during the troubles and I wouldn't pretend they are not.

Since you put it that way, of course i feel an excessive amount of sympathy for someone that was arbitrarily born on the same island as me. Cos that's the rational thing to do.

Whilst we're at it, the unionists there have had a pretty **** time too. They were the majority but they had a violent minority targeting them. hardly democratic is it.

Honestly, they were both as bad as each other and both have had the support of the majority of their communities whilst they committed some of the worst of their crimes. People might rant about the english, but the last 50 years have shown that the people who are able to display the most hatred and ingenuity in killing irish people are in fact irish people.

This island would be better off it the 6 counties just floated off into the sea.

HansHolzel

What a superficial, glib, West Brit analysis. Honestly.

Deedsie

Grayson wrote: »

Since you put it that way, of course i feel an excessive amount of sympathy for someone that was arbitrarily born on the same island as me. Cos that's the rational thing to do.

Whilst we're at it, the unionists there have had a pretty **** time too. They were the majority but they had a violent minority targeting them. hardly democratic is it.

Honestly, they were both as bad as each other and both have had the support of the majority of their communities whilst they committed some of the worst of their crimes. People might rant about the english, but the last 50 years have shown that the people who are able to display the most hatred and ingenuity in killing irish people are in fact irish people.

This island would be better off it the 6 counties just floated off into the sea.

Who said anything about the English? (It would be the British anyway, the scots and welsh played their part too.)

The island wouldn't be better off, two of the major cities of the island and the scene of some of our most important historical moments happened in what is modern day Northern Ireland.

It's such a nothing comment to say we'd be better off if those six counties just floated off.

Northern Ireland is part of our past, present and future. I'd hope people would educate themselves on the subject.

josip

Grayson wrote: »

If we could chop off the north and let it sail away it'd be great.

That's not a very practical suggestion. You would spend an awful lot of time chopping along the Donegal border, whereas you could very easily chop along the Leitrim-Donegal border. If the Donegal people were agreeable to it, it would save months of chopping. If they weren't agreeable, you could go ahead ala 1921 and just chop em off anyway. Taking a closer look at the map, a lot of chopping time is spent respecting the Monaghan county border. Once again there's a strong case to be made for straightlining across Monaghan. Barry McGuigan was a big enough man not to be overly concerned about the border, so other Monaghan people would probably also be equally understanding. Where would you start chopping? If you start at only one end, you'd probably go off course soon enough and it would take a long time. If you start at both ends, there's nare a hope you'd ever meet in the middle. If you start in the middle and work out you'd probably end up amputating Connaught.

Grayson

josip wrote: »

That's not a very practical suggestion. You would spend an awful lot of time chopping along the Donegal border, whereas you could very easily chop along the Leitrim-Donegal border. If the Donegal people were agreeable to it, it would save months of chopping. If they weren't agreeable, you could go ahead ala 1921 and just chop em off anyway. Taking a closer look at the map, a lot of chopping time is spent respecting the Monaghan county border. Once again there's a strong case to be made for straightlining across Monaghan. Barry McGuigan was a big enough man not to be overly concerned about the border, so other Monaghan people would probably also be equally understanding. Where would you start chopping? If you start at only one end, you'd probably go off course soon enough and it would take a long time. If you start at both ends, there's nare a hope you'd ever meet in the middle. If you start in the middle and work out you'd probably end up amputating Connaught.

I'd hope it would be like chopping a tree. Once you get halfway it kinda breaks. If we started in the north and included donegal, the gulf stream would get into the wedge we cut and force it off. Now I realise we'd be sacraficing donegal, which is a pity because I like the place and the girls have lovely accents. But I do think it'd be worth it.

josip

Grayson wrote: »

I'd hope it would be like chopping a tree. Once you get halfway it kinda breaks.

Did you have something like this in mind?

FTA69

Grayson wrote: »

Speaking for rational people here I'd like to say that......... If we could chop off the north and let it sail away it's be great.

Sounds rational alright.

:rolleyes:

markesmith

Us boardsies have very confused and conflicted opinions when it comes to d'North

fro9etb8j5qsl2

Letting Salvita Halappanaver die

markesmith

markesmith wrote: »

Us boardsies have very confused and conflicted opinions when it comes to d'North

Especially after the red wedding.

old hippy

HansHolzel wrote: »

What a superficial, glib, West Brit analysis. Honestly.

Using that term is another low we could do without.

For the record, I too, get annoyed when I hear people saying if only we could cut the north away. I'd rather see it as independent of both RoI and the UK.

Greenduck

charlemont

Since Independence I would say the cover up and lack of action by the Gardaí against child rape and abuse. You can't get much lower than that. A police force
turning a blind eye to the Church. If these children were the children of rich and influential people, Then there may have been action..

We still don't have the truth today about De Valera and McQuaid...

Grayson

charlemont wrote: »

Since Independence I would say the cover up and lack of action by the Gardaí against child rape and abuse. You can't get much lower than that. A police force
turning a blind eye to the Church. If these children were the children of rich and influential people, Then there may have been action..

We still don't have the truth today about De Valera and McQuaid...

I'd say not just the gardai but the whole society. people were all too ready to turn a blind eye to anything the church did be it child abuse or the laundries.

Grayson

old hippy wrote: »

Using that term is another low we could do without.

For the record, I too, get annoyed when I hear people saying if only we could cut the north away. I'd rather see it as independent of both RoI and the UK.

That's kinda what I had in mind. But a moat would be nice too.

MJ23

Jedward

Skatedude

Today, when the irish government agreed to start censoring the internet.

TheLastMohican

charlemont wrote: »

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We still don't have the truth today about De Valera and McQuaid...

Yes we do. Dev was an Irish patriot. McQuaid was an egotistical, perverted piece of work.

Dev did hid best with the thinking of the time. He made mistakes but hindsight only comes after the fact.

josip

Skatedude wrote: »

Today, when the irish government agreed to start censoring the internet.

I thought they were just being compliant with an EU law designed to prevent theft.

ONeill2013

Grayson wrote: »

Since you put it that way, of course i feel an excessive amount of sympathy for someone that was arbitrarily born on the same island as me. Cos that's the rational thing to do.

Whilst we're at it, the unionists there have had a pretty **** time too. They were the majority but they had a violent minority targeting them. hardly democratic is it.

Honestly, they were both as bad as each other and both have had the support of the majority of their communities whilst they committed some of the worst of their crimes. People might rant about the english, but the last 50 years have shown that the people who are able to display the most hatred and ingenuity in killing irish people are in fact irish people.

This island would be better off it the 6 counties just floated off into the sea.

the last relative of mine to be involved in violence in ireland could have been as far back as the 1600's, why should i have to float off into the sea? or would i be allowed to jump over to donegal?

kevthegaff

Saipan:(

inmyday

kevthegaff wrote: »

Saipan:(

ffs. Really? Are you messing? You must be.

That was Ireland's lowest point????
Sometimes footie fans do my head in.

Zebra3

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They managed it in Crete.

And to Norway.

Galwayguy35

old hippy wrote: »

Using that term is another low we could do without.

For the record, I too, get annoyed when I hear people saying if only we could cut the north away. I'd rather see it as independent of both RoI and the UK.

You do realise it's too small to survive on it's own don't you?

Maybe not it appears....

Sam Kade

Bertie Ahern being elected taoiseach.

Galwayguy35

I think as regards loss of life it would have to be the Famine, and the way no help was given to those in need.

quasimoron

Why are people mentioning Jedward, on a serious thread. They are just harmless, naive lads.
To me the low points are the child abuse in orphanages and industrial schools both physical and sexual.
The magdalen laundries where young girls were enslaved, exploited and treated like criminals with the complicity of the state.Their babies being sold to Americans.The lack of rights for women in general.
The authority of the church here over government and how it was used to suppress people and ostracise them.
Clerical child abuse and the cover ups. Biffo drunk in america in a radio interview and the subsequent mockery..

old hippy

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You do realise it's too small to survive on it's own don't you?

Maybe not it appears....

Which? It's too small or maybe it appears it isn't too small, after all?

Fratton Fred

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You do realise it's too small to survive on it's own don't you?

Maybe not it appears....

Don't tell Luxembourg. Or Andorra!

Noreen1

banie01 wrote: »

No, I'm not!
Or are people born in Northern Ireland no longer entitled to Irish citizenship?
Are those 6 counties somehow removed from ''Irishness'' by virtue of an act of parliment?
And given that the entire thrust of my point was aimed at my perception of Irelands lowest point and that perception garnered by the people of the country I lived in at the time....
Where all the reporting of the incident referred to ''Ireland'' rather than a geopolitcal subsection of the Island governed by the U.K.
In foreign media it wasn't reported as UK terrorism or disturbances, it was and is an ''Irish'' problem regardless of the brand politics those involved espouse.

Relax! You're as Irish as I am.

Like it or lump it, though (and I don't like it!) - there is a political division that exists.

There is also, unfortunately, as a result of that political division - an enormous difference in the reality of daily life for people on both sides of the border.
Less so, now, than before the Good Friday agreement - but a difference, nevertheless.

That doesn't make you any less Irish than me - it just means that I was fortunate enough to grow up in a peaceful society, where the violence in the North was very far removed from my daily life, and if it weren't for occasional shopping trips there, it would have been hard to believe that this violence was happening a 90 minute drive out the road.

Noreen1

Sgt Hartman wrote: »

The Cromwellian invasion which led to the destruction of the Gaelic way of life. The potato famine which decimated the country and drove so many Irish people to the four corners of the Earth. They would be the two biggest low points in Irish history for me.

This. Throw in the bank bailouts, and that just about sums up the darkest points in our history.

Grayson wrote: »

Since you put it that way, of course i feel an excessive amount of sympathy for someone that was arbitrarily born on the same island as me. Cos that's the rational thing to do.
Whilst we're at it, the unionists there have had a pretty **** time too. They were the majority but they had a violent minority targeting them. hardly democratic is it.

Honestly, they were both as bad as each other and both have had the support of the majority of their communities whilst they committed some of the worst of their crimes. People might rant about the english, but the last 50 years have shown that the people who are able to display the most hatred and ingenuity in killing irish people are in fact irish people.

This island would be better off it the 6 counties just floated off into the sea.

You do realise that Northern Ireland was retained by the British in response to the entirely undemocratic actions of the Unionists in arming themselves to resist a 32 County republic, right?

Grayson wrote: »

I'd hope it would be like chopping a tree. Once you get halfway it kinda breaks. If we started in the north and included donegal, the gulf stream would get into the wedge we cut and force it off. Now I realise we'd be sacraficing donegal, which is a pity because I like the place and the girls have lovely accents. But I do think it'd be worth it.

Speak for yourself.

ONeill2013 wrote: »

the last relative of mine to be involved in violence in ireland could have been as far back as the 1600's, why should i have to float off into the sea? or would i be allowed to jump over to donegal?

Come ahead.:P:D
We're not about to float off anywhere.

RealExpert

Electing enda kenny and fine gael to clean up berties mess.....look at the shi* we are in now............no future for the race in Ireland im afraid

Galwayguy35

old hippy wrote: »

Which? It's too small or maybe it appears it isn't too small, after all?

Good man, you got a few thanks for your razor sharp wit.

Galwayguy35

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Don't tell Luxembourg. Or Andorra!

NI survives because of the money pumped into it by the taxpayers over in Britain.

Sure it gets some investment but its still only 6 counties.

Hell we are in debt to our hole this side of the border and we are 3 times the size of it with a more competive Corporation Tax.

Minderbinder

See

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056970809

oppenheimer1

banie01 wrote: »

There was no ROI in existence to become involved in WW2.
The Republic wasn't enabled until 1948 and declared in '49, we were still technically a ''Dominion'' during the war.

Ireland wasn't a dominion after the enactment of the '37 constitution. The Republic of Ireland act was only to give further clarity to the situation.

As for low points in Irish history, I'm going to limit this to post '22 as problems Ireland faced before that weren't of her own making. The most obvious crisis then is the Civil War as the fledgling state could have collapsed.

In more recent history, the Bailout from the Troika was definitely a low point, and the lowest for the state in the last 30 years. Its effects will be long lasting.

K-9

Kerry babies case, just a single case that I think finally broke the stigma of unmarried mothers in Ireland, and maybe in some way eventually led to more people speaking up about different church/state scandals in a small, insular state. People finally thought about what brings a woman to do something like that, hide the shame from an "illegitimate" birth, rather than think well, "she did something shameful, she was right to cover it up".

The sadness is it took something like that to be the nadir.

Just on the DeV thing, no fan of him, but his defence of Irish and other countries neutrality was his highest moment. He stood up to bullying from Churchill and that informed Irish opinion in the UN in the 50's on African independence and sovereignty. There used to be a time Ireland used to play an important part in the U.N, you'd need to be about 80 to remember it.

Fratton Fred

K-9 wrote: »

Kerry babies case
Just on the DeV thing, no fan of him, but his defence of Irish and other countries neutrality was his highest moment. He stood up to bullying from Churchill and that informed Irish opinion in the UN in the 50's on African independence and sovereignty. There used to be a time Ireland used to play an important part in the U.N, you'd need to be about 80 to remember it.

And it's predecessor the League of Nations. Sean Lester was the LoN's governor of Danzig from 1934 to 1936 before becoming Secretary General. A candidate for fledgling Ireland's proudest moment perhaps?

With this level of exposure on the world stage, it does beg the question why Ireland chose not to get involved, especially with the links to Danzig. BUT, in hindsight, I think Dev did the right thing although signing a book of condolence for Hitler was a bizarre thing to do.

old hippy

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Good man, you got a few thanks for your razor sharp wit.

Yep, I'm the dog's bollocks, me

I look fwd to the eventual independent entity of North Ireland, which I'm sure will go from strength to strength without the cruel Imperialists or uberpats of old to dictate its future.