what is the big thing about the Lions?

Podge_irl

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So your saying that Warren Gatland's opinion gets to be the ultimate arbiter of an Irish player's career? Hmm, I would disagree on that.

The highest honour an Irish player could achieve is starting a World Cup Final in a green jersey and winning it.

But starting in a RWC final is completely based on one person's opinion as well.

Being selected as a test Lion is the greatest individual honour that a player can get.

Birroc

patmac wrote: »

From a fans perspective would you rather your province/team won the Rabo or the Lions won the test series?

As a Connacht fan I am torn! Explain how are we going to win the Rabo and then I'll decide.

ArmaniJeanss

Podge_irl wrote: »

Being selected as a test Lion is the greatest individual honour that a player can get.

Being selected in the official Team of the World Cup would be logically way ahead surely, as you get selected ahead of the whole world rather than effectively being selected ahead of 3 other players.

patmac

Birroc wrote: »

As a Connacht fan I am torn! Explain how are we going to win the Rabo and then I'll decide.

As a Connacht fan surely you would take the Rabo could you imagine the crack in Galway!

.ak

Birroc wrote: »

As a Connacht fan I am torn! Explain how are we going to win the Rabo and then I'll decide.

By Dan Parks kicking every point in your season? :P

Rightwing

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Being selected in the official Team of the World Cup would be logically way ahead surely, as you get selected ahead of the whole world rather than effectively being selected ahead of 3 other players.

Only downside is, you'd never get to play on that team!

Birroc

patmac wrote: »

As a Connacht fan surely you would take the Rabo could you imagine the crack in Galway!

It would be nice but first we would have to prevent scummy Leinster and Munster stealing all our best players and even passing some of them back with zero confidence after many months warming the bench!

LuckyLloyd

Teferi wrote: »

"Can anybody make a case for the Lions without mentioning two of the biggest things that fans love about the Lions?".

G'way out of that.

But, as pointed out on this thread already, those aspects don't hold true with respect to the Lions anymore. It is not representative of the tradition and history of 19th / 20th century touring anymore and it is no longer the biggest prize / stage in World Rugby. If you reckon that's all it's got going for it then I'd be forced to conclude there isn't a whole lot to it anymore.

Podge_irl

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If you reckon that's all it's got going for it then I'd be forced to conclude there isn't a whole lot to it anymore.

Yet fans and players still undeniably love it. Which is all that really matters.

Teferi

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

But, as pointed out on this thread already, those aspects don't hold true with respect to the Lions anymore. It is not representative of the tradition and history of 19th / 20th century touring anymore and it is no longer the biggest prize / stage in World Rugby. If you reckon that's all it's got going for it then I'd be forced to conclude there isn't a whole lot to it anymore.

As pointed out by people like yourself who are against the Lions those aspects don't hold true.

Which are just opinions, not facts.

Ones with the majority don't agree with it seems.

matthew8

Do the players get paid for touring?

Duggys Housemate

The problem here is that there are newbie Rugby fans who don't really get Rugby. I see that on twitter where the Heineken cup is a bigger deal than the Lions, judging by number of posts per game. Well that will never be the case for the players.

The order of preference of wins for players ( in the home associations):

1) World Cup
2) Lions
3) 6 N
4) Heineken
5) Other tournaments not the Heineken.

The WC - a relatively new competition which doesn't really do it for me - speaks for itself. The others show, in ascending order, how good the player who competes in them is. If you are playing for a team competitive in the Heineken cup you are clearly a good player but you may not be called up for the 6N, and if you are you may not be called up for the Lions.

Which is why they all love being called up for the Lions, and of course winning as a Lion.

Any other argument is nonsense, its not really understanding rugby tradition or human nature.

Duggys Housemate

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Being selected in the official Team of the World Cup would be logically way ahead surely, as you get selected ahead of the whole world rather than effectively being selected ahead of 3 other players.

Its an honour but not a team which plays anywhere, its clearly not comparable to a team which tours.

Duggys Housemate

MrDerp wrote: »

I'm sure plenty of players would take a world cup medal or a H-cup medal over a lions cap.

I doubt the latter. Its a club competition played every year, where the competition for places is clearly easier than any given Lions tour.

Rightwing

matthew8 wrote: »

Do the players get paid for touring?

Well paid!

LuckyLloyd

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The problem here is that there are newbie Rugby fans who don't really get Rugby.

Ha, nicely condescended sir. I'm not a newbie fan nor someone who doesn't 'get' rugby. Some of us can simply see through the hype and bull****. There was a time when playing for the Barbarians was a big deal (I remember a particularly memorable defeat of South Africa at Landsdowne Road in the early nineties). But time moves on and it became ever less relevant in the pro era. The Lions is front and center because it's profitable, no other reason. All that history and tradition will be shoved to one side if a more profitable summer option ever rears its head.

Rightwing

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

I doubt the latter. Its a club competition played every year, where the competition for places is clearly easier than any given Lions tour.

Would S Williams swap his recent cap for a H cup medal? I think so.

Tox56

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Ha, nicely condescended sir. I'm not a newbie fan nor someone who doesn't 'get' rugby. Some of us can simply see through the hype and bull****. There was a time when playing for the Barbarians was a big deal (I remember a particularly memorable defeat of South Africa at Landsdowne Road in the early nineties). But time moves on and it became ever less relevant in the pro era. The Lions is front and center because it's profitable, no other reason. All that history and tradition will be shoved to one side if a more profitable summer option ever rears its head.

OK you don't like it, we get it, but there is clearly a massive market for it (hence why it's so profitable as you point out) and I would say the overwhelming majority of 'rugby fans' don't share your view. If/when your opinion becomes the majority it's relevance may be in question but there is absolutely no sign of that happening any time soon

LuckyLloyd

matthew8 wrote: »

Do the players get paid for touring?

Of course, it's the professional era. No way they'd trek out to Australia and put their bodies on the line without being paid for it. Now, if they still all went down for free I think the arguments about history, tradition and ultimate stature would ring much more true.

almighty1

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The order of preference of wins for players ( in the home associations):

1) World Cup
2) Lions
3) 6 N
4) Heineken
5) Other tournaments not the Heineken.

That's purely your opinion and one that alot of people would disagree with. Me being one

sydthebeat

As an irish fan, my knowledge of players such as jpr williams, david duckham, gavin hastings etc all come from their exploits on lions tours and not what they did in the 6/5 nations etc.

Legends are made in lions tours.

LuckyLloyd

Tox56 wrote: »

OK you don't like it, we get it, but there is clearly a massive market for it (hence why it's so profitable as you point out) and I would say the overwhelming majority of 'rugby fans' don't share your view. If/when your opinion becomes the majority it's relevance may be in question but there is absolutely no sign of that happening any time soon

Well again I'd disagree - it's more than an academic point to question why something is currently popular. For me, I think the current popularity is a function of a well crafted media build up and a huge hole in the sporting calendar. The current squabbles over the format of the Heineken Cup should be an indication that everything is negotiable in Rugby these days. I don't think it's outlandish to imagine more regular cross hemisphere competition (either at club or International level) in the future and it possibly putting the Lions tour under doubt.

Whereas other sporting events like the FIFA World Cup or the Olympic games may as well be cast in stone.

patmac

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The problem here is that there are newbie Rugby fans who don't really get Rugby. I see that on twitter where the Heineken cup is a bigger deal than the Lions, judging by number of posts per game. Well that will never be the case for the players.

The order of preference of wins for players ( in the home associations):

1) World Cup
2) Lions
3) 6 N
4) Heineken
5) Other tournaments not the Heineken.

Nice post, so because I don't agree with you I am a newbie:rolleyes:. I have a medal from Junior Rugby from the early 80's and attended Lansdowne when we won the Triple Crown back in 85 and have witnessed a lot of changes since. I would find it difficult to believe that O'Connell and O'Driscoll would rate a Lions test win over the Grand Slam and Heineken Cup wins maybe on a par, there is no way I would, or have you forgotten the open top parades etc. A lot of people are looking at this though from a player's point of view but not as a fan. The Lions would be no 4 on that list for me. Anyway good luck to the Lions tomorrow be nice if they won.

Tox56

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well again I'd disagree - it's more than an academic point to question why something is currently popular. For me, I think the current popularity is a function of a well crafted media build up and a huge hole in the sporting calendar. The current squabbles over the format of the Heineken Cup should be an indication that everything is negotiable in Rugby these days. I don't think it's outlandish to imagine more regular cross hemisphere competition (either at club or International level) in the future and it possibly putting the Lions tour under doubt.

Whereas other sporting events like the FIFA World Cup or the Olympic games may as well be cast in stone.

Well if you're going to compare it to the FIFA World Cup and Olympic games yes there is only one winner but it's not like the thousands who travel to follow the Lions and the rest who follow it from home are being brainwashed by this massive media campaign, I couldn't care less whether it's Sky or TG4 covering the Lions I just love the concept. The history doesn't become irrelevant just because they're getting paid and not going on 'old school' tours, the history of the thing and following in the footsteps of legends is definitely one of it's biggest draws. You look at the behind the scenes footage from 2009 and 1997 (both in the professional era) and see how much the players care, you'd be doing well to find that passion in a dressing room before a H Cup final

Personally I get fed up with the importance placed on the World Cup and seemingly endless build up to that, I'd rather watch a Lions test series any day

Rightwing

patmac wrote: »

Nice post, so because I don't agree with you I am a newbie:rolleyes:. I have a medal from Junior Rugby from the early 80's and attended Lansdowne when we won the Triple Crown back in 85 and have witnessed a lot of changes since. I would find it difficult to believe that O'Connell and O'Driscoll would rate a Lions test win over the Grand Slam and Heineken Cup wins maybe on a par, there is no way I would, or have you forgotten the open top parades etc. A lot of people are looking at this though from a player's point of view but not as a fan. The Lions would be no 4 on that list for me. Anyway good luck to the Lions tomorrow be nice if they won.

Indeed.

Maybe the likes of SOB might swap a H cup medal (he has 3) for a Lions Test place and series win. But no way for just a cap.

Podge_irl

Rightwing wrote: »

Would S Williams swap his recent cap for a H cup medal? I think so.

S Williams didn't get a cap. You only get caps for test matches.

Duggys Housemate

Rightwing wrote: »

Would S Williams swap his recent cap for a H cup medal? I think so.

That's an argument to an extreme example, always an example of a flawed argument. He was lucky to get called up and won't be in the test games or had a chance if being in a test game.

Clearly the Heineken cup is not at the level of competition as the Lions. Most home players in it are not good enough to play for the lions.

Rightwing

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

That's an argument to an extreme example, always an example of a flawed argument. He was lucky to get called up and won't be in the test games or had a chance if being in a test game.

Clearly the Heineken cup is not at the level of competition as the Lions. Most home players in it are not good enough to play for the lions.

No doubt about that. That's why I rate the Lions as the ultimate for an Irish player. Has to be a Test cap though.

Duggys Housemate

Rightwing wrote: »

Indeed.

Maybe the likes of SOB might swap a H cup medal (he has 3) for a Lions Test place and series win. But no way for just a cap.

You guys are comparing a win in a club competition to just an appearance in an international competition, often in a warmup game . Compare wins with wins. And the quality of the opposition ( tests not warm up games). BOD would probably prefer a win in the Heineken cup to an Irish win over Italy but would prefer an Irish grand slam to the Heineken cup.

And if he as versed in rugby lore as I think he is he would have preferred to captain the Lions team to victory than any one 6n victories. It's a rarer honour and privilege.

Rightwing

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

You guys are comparing a win in a club competition to just an appearance in an international competition, often in a warmup game . Compare wins with wins. And the quality of the opposition ( tests not warm up games). BOD would probably prefer a win in the Heineken cup to an Irish win over Italy but would prefer an Irish grand slam to the Heineken cup.

And if he as versed in rugby lore as I think he is he would have preferred to captain the Lions team to victory than any one 6n victories. It's a rarer honour and privilege.

I agree, Warburton has the chance to become a legend, and all at the age of what, 24 ?

Larbre34

Every 4 years they should hold a game, North vs South, whatever players you like, hold it in North Korea at that 150,000 stadium. If its going to be Rugby awesomeness, might as well go the whole hog!

almighty1

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Clearly the Heineken cup is not at the level of competition as the Lions. Most home players in it are not good enough to play for the lions.

Hogwash. Its a competition between 2 teams for christ sake. The standard of players are higher but you only have to win 2 games and you've won the series.

In the HC Cup you have to win a minimum of 7 out of 9 games.

almighty1

Oh and to emphasise how inane the whole underlying concept of this Lions tour is.

According to the IRB, England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland, combined rugby-playing population is 226,297 whilst Australia have a staggering 39,380 :rolleyes:

Buer

Playing numbers in Australia for union aren't a hugely accurate way of assessing those that are available to the professional union teams. Look at their squad at the moment.

Israel Folau, AFL/NRL background having played both professionally.
Berrick Barnes, was playing pro RL with the Broncos before joining union at 19.
Joe Tomane, only moved across to union two years ago after playing league professionally.
Wycliff Palu, played professional rugby league.

Their potential players extends far beyond the guys that are currently registered as union players.

Klunk_NZ

An Annual Rest of World vs whover is #1 in the IRB Rankings would be sick.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

People who think the pick of the home nations should automatically beat any side if Northern Hemisphere rugby was any good really don't realise just how hard it is to take the best players in four nations and try and make them gel into a cohesive unit in such a short space of time. The familiarity and experience the nation playing the touring side has is a huge advantage.

Rightwing

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

People who think the pick of the home nations should automatically beat any side if Northern Hemisphere rugby was any good really don't realise just how hard it is to take the best players in four nations and try and make them gel into a cohesive unit in such a short space of time. The familiarity and experience the nation playing the touring side has is a huge advantage.

It's not that hard, just means they are not good enough.

irishbucsfan

Rightwing wrote: »

It's not that hard, just means they are not good enough.

Possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read

Rightwing

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read

You need to read just a lil more.

matTNT

lol, I'm watching the first test and this thread, if not before, now is one of the most ludicrous things I have ever read. What a game, what intensity.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

It's not that hard, just means they are not good enough.

It's not that hard to gel 30+ players into one system for top level rugby against one of the best sides in the world in under six weeks? Well sir that must be one of the most naive opinions I've ever read on this place

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Also, that 40 minutes, that's the big deal

Rightwing

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

It's not that hard to gel 30+ players into one system for top level rugby against one of the best sides in the world in under six weeks? Well sir that must be one of the most naive opinions I've ever read on this place

It's hard for the inexperienced novice, not for the professionals.

Hope that helps.

Teferi

Anyone who can watch the 40 minutes of rugby just passed and still argue against the Lions is broken in the head I reckon.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

It's hard for the inexperienced novice, not for the professionals.

Hope that helps.

It's much harder for professionals. Do you realise the huge subtleties and preparation that goes into a test game? Familiarity is key

Hence why the Baabaa's often lose despite having a better side on paper to a lot of the teams they play

Rightwing

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

It's much harder for professionals. Do you realise the huge subtleties and preparation that goes into a test game? Familiarity is key

Hence why the Baabaa's often lose despite having a better side on paper to a lot of the teams they play

The babas don't care. They don't even want to care. Exhibition rugby.

It's a cheap, tired, lazy cliche to be using, it's too hard to gel.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

The babas don't care. They don't even want to care. Exhibition rugby.

It's a cheap, tired, lazy cliche to be using, it's too hard to gel.

Right ignore the Baabaa's so. Getting a cohesive unit going is the hardest task for the Lions and familiarity gives the host nation a serious advantage. How are you saying that isn't true?

Alpha Dog 1

Northern hemisphere vs southern hemisphere, played every two years, EPIC.

patmac

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Right ignore the Baabaa's so. Getting a cohesive unit going is the hardest task for the Lions and familiarity gives the host nation a serious advantage. How are you saying that isn't true?

The Lions are together a lot longer than the Wallabies on this tour which is why they tend to win the first test more often. A win is a win but I am seriously underwhelmed, in the cold light of day one of the strongest lions team on paper just beat one of the poorest Southern Hemisphere teams ever who had 3 players stretchered off and no goal kicker.

Rightwing

patmac wrote: »

The Lions are together a lot longer than the Wallabies on this tour which is why they tend to win the first test more often. A win is a win but I am seriously underwhelmed, in the cold light of day one of the strongest lions team on paper just beat one of the poorest Southern Hemisphere teams ever who had 3 players stretchered off and no goal kicker.

That's it. People use the excuse that it's too hard to gel, sort of writing off the likes of NZ/Boks/Aussies, 3 of the best teams in the world.

No one is saying it's easy, but there's more to it than just the lions gelling. They are playing some of the best opposition in the world.