Misguided Heroes.

Sergeant

There are many examples of people throughout history who are seen as heroes by people who admire what they did. From Caesar to Armstrong.

Yet they turn out to be fundamentally flawed.

For example, I remember watching Motorcycle Diaries about the life of Che Guevara. It was a wonderfully evocative piece of cinema. I then did some reading about the chap. Turns out he was rather different than the romanticised portrayal shown in the movie. A cold-hearted and vindictive murderer. Over 4000 people died without fair trial in prison camps he administered. He was personally responsible for acts of torture and death.

Yet he has managed to become a poster-child and an iconic figure planted on many a cheap sweatshop manufactured t-shirt.

Any other examples of people who you feel don't deserve the badge of 'hero' that has been placed upon them?

krudler

Mother Teresa, seen as saint when she was anything but.

I doubt you'll find many revered heroes or notable figures in history who don't have some kind of a dark side, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

kneemos

Chesley Sullenberger,modern day hero.

PizzamanIRL

Enrique Iglesias.

Yitzhak Rabin

The 1916 rebels. Worshipped in Ireland with plenty of streets and buildings named after them.

Completely undemocratic and deluded romantasists. Caused huge damage to the capital and its people in a move that had little support. They would be brandished as terrorists today, and rightly so.

IM0

krudler wrote: »

Mother Teresa, seen as saint when she was anything but.

welll shes no...... oh ...

they'll probably have to come up with a new name for that phrase

joan of arc?, florence nightengale? or were they cunts too

IM0

PizzamanIRL wrote: »

Enrique Iglesias.

foo fighters

Karl Stein

Every US president since 1945 would have been hanged if they were subject to the same standards that were applied to the Nazis at Nuremberg.

Stick that up your Che Guevara hole.

Karl Stein

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

The 1916 rebels. Worshipped in Ireland with plenty of streets and buildings named after them.

Completely undemocratic and deluded romantasists. Caused huge damage to the capital and its people in a move that had little support. They would be brandished as terrorists today, and rightly so.

Lifted straight from the Kevin Myers revisionist Ladybird book for 2 to 4 year olds.

Sergeant

krudler wrote: »

one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

It's a widely used phrase, but not one that stands up to any type of scrutiny. I fail to see how shooting a 21 year old through the head in a Havana prison -without trial - is in any way an act of 'freedom fighting'. It's the final and tragic ending of a young life.

The Backwards Man

Thought the thread title was 'misguided torpedoes' and immediately thought of the ship that torpedoed itself

Karl Stein

Sergeant wrote: »

It's a widely used phrase, but not one that stands up to any type of scrutiny. I fail to see how shooting a 21 year old through the head in a Havana prison -without trial - is in any way an act of 'freedom fighting'. It's the final and tragic ending of a young life.

South America has suffered greatly at the hands of US imperialism. Tens of thousands have been murdered by regimes and death squads directly trained and supported by the US.

What do you have to say about that?

Nothing?

Yeah. Keep spouting your bull****.

Nobody with half a brain is taking it seriously anyway, but do go on.

keith16

Bill Clinton. And his wife. Hillary.

Dimithy

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

South America has suffered greatly at the hands of US imperialism. Tens of thousands have been murdered by regimes and death squads directly trained and supported by the US.

What do you have to say about that?

Nothing?

Yeah. Keep spouting your bull****.

Nobody with half a brain is taking it seriously anyway, but do go on.

And that makes what Che did better somehow?

playadeldick

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

South America has suffered greatly at the hands of US imperialism. Tens of thousands have been murdered by regimes and death squads directly trained and supported by the US.

What do you have to say about that?

Nothing?

Yeah. Keep spouting your bull****.

Nobody with half a brain is taking it seriously anyway, but do go on.

I'm taking him seriously. The man is talking a lot of sense. Are you claiming that I have less than half a brain? You appear to be getting emotional, as evidenced by your use of expletives. Perhaps this topic is too sensitive for you.

Yitzhak Rabin

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

Lifted straight from the Kevin Myers revisionist Ladybird book for 2 to 4 year olds.

I don't know what book you're talking about, but any chance you'd counter the point?

I don't see what is heroic about undemocratic (the democratic IPP won 84 out of 105 of the available seats, clearly indicating the people of Ireland wanted home rule, and not Sinn Féins insurrectionist policies) storming the national post office and holding a city to siege?

Dr. Bre

Sergeant wrote: »

There are many examples of people throughout history who are seen as heroes by people who admire what they did. From Caesar to Armstrong.

Yet they turn out to be fundamentally flawed.

For example, I remember watching Motorcycle Diaries about the life of Che Guevara. It was a wonderfully evocative piece of cinema. I then did some reading about the chap. Turns out he was rather different than the romanticised portrayal shown in the movie. A cold-hearted and vindictive murderer. Over 4000 people died without fair trial in prison camps he administered. He was personally responsible for acts of torture and death.

Yet he has managed to become a poster-child and an iconic figure planted on many a cheap sweatshop manufactured t-shirt.

Any other examples of people who you feel don't deserve the badge of 'hero' that has been placed upon them?

Which Armstrong?Lance Or Neil

Karl Stein

Dimithy wrote: »

And that makes what Che did better somehow?

No. But let's try to put a little context around it.

Karl Stein

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

I don't know what book you're talking about, but any chance you'd counter the point?

Do you support the inherent violence of empire and colonialism?

No? Then how can you condemn those who fight against it without giving yourself dissonance headaches?

playadeldick

Che was a mainstay of the hardline pro-Soviet faction, and his faction won. Che presided over the Cuban Revolution's first firing squads. He founded Cuba's "labor camp" system—the system that was eventually employed to incarcerate gays, dissidents, and AIDS victims. To get himself killed, and to get a lot of other people killed, was central to Che's imagination. In the famous essay in which he issued his ringing call for "two, three, many Vietnams," he also spoke about martyrdom and managed to compose a number of chilling phrases: "Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine. This is what our soldiers must become …"— and so on

Dimithy

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

No. But let's try to put a little context around it.

Seems like you're trying to excuse it.

kowloon

Gandhi was supposed to be a right old racist when it suited him.

Prodigious

kowloon wrote: »

Gandhi was supposed to be a right old racist when it suited him.

Hand he slept beside young girls to test himself?

Karl Stein

Dimithy wrote: »

Seems like you're trying to excuse it.

Excuse what?

Yitzhak Rabin

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

Do you support the inherent violence of empire and colonialism?

No? Then how can you condemn those who fight against it without giving yourself dissonance headaches?

There were plenty of people fighting it. Their names were Isaac Butt, Charles Stewart Parnell a John Redmond. They were the ones who had the people's support.

The other crowd consisted of men like Padraig Pearse who fantasised about bloodshed and boys arses.

jaffacakesyum

krudler wrote: »

Mother Teresa, seen as saint when she was anything but.

I doubt you'll find many revered heroes or notable figures in history who don't have some kind of a dark side, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

I have to say I only learnt of what Mother Teresa was really like in a recent thread on boards.

Amazing what you learn in school and the media and then with a little research you realise just how wrong they were. She sounded like a right piece of work.

Dimithy

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

Excuse what?

The actions of Che Guevara.

Femme_Fatale

I think there's a bit of a bandwagon going re Mother Teresa. She still did a lot more to help the poor and sick than most others did. And under extremely difficult circumstances in a hell-hole like Calcutta.

Dimithy

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I think there's a bit of a bandwagon going re Mother Teresa. She still did a lot more to help the poor and sick than most others did. And under extremely difficult circumstances in a hell-hole like Calcutta.

Doing good doesn't absolve you of your wrongdoings.

Karl Stein

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

There were plenty of people fighting it. Their names were Isaac Butt, Charles Stewart Parnell a John Redmond. They were the ones who had the people's support.

It's quite possible that we'd have ended up as a poor backwater region, like Scotland only with added Glasgow, if they'd have continued to pursue change from within the empire.

The other crowd consisted of men like Padraig Pearse who fantasised about bloodshed and boys arses.

Not so thinly veiled 'gay people should be subject to ridicule' comment. How noble.

Dimithy wrote: »

The actions of Che Guevara.

What actions?

Allow me to pull you along by your nose into my trap.

L1011

kneemos wrote: »

Chesley Sullenberger,modern day hero.

When he could have got the plane down on a runway, and salvageable without risking life. Americans love a "hero" though.

Sergeant

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I think there's a bit of a bandwagon going re Mother Teresa. She still did a lot more to help the poor and sick than most others did. And under extremely difficult circumstances in a hell-hole like Calcutta.

Absolutely. She did devote her life to the place. Nothing is black and white. People are alive today because of her actions.

It's the same with Guevara. I'm sure he believed in his vision of an egalitarian society, no matter how misguided, economically infeasible and tragic it turned out to be. But I fail to see how shooting a young father through the head without trial can be countenanced with his modern-day status as a hero.

kowloon

Prodigious wrote: »

Hand he slept beside young girls to test himself?

He didn't? The dirty old fecker! :eek:

padd b1975

The WWF (World Wildlife Fund)

Seriously shady organisation in terms of how it's funded when you look beyond the pictures of cute pandas.

Gummy Panda

padd b1975 wrote: »

The WWF (World Wildlife Fund)

Seriously shady organisation in terms of how it's funded when you look beyond the pictures of cute pandas.

The pandas wrestling in those shows were there of their own free will

Dimithy

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

What actions?

Allow me to pull you along by your nose into my trap.

Something like this?

playadeldick wrote: »

Che was a mainstay of the hardline pro-Soviet faction, and his faction won. Che presided over the Cuban Revolution's first firing squads. He founded Cuba's "labor camp" system—the system that was eventually employed to incarcerate gays, dissidents, and AIDS victims. To get himself killed, and to get a lot of other people killed, was central to Che's imagination. In the famous essay in which he issued his ringing call for "two, three, many Vietnams," he also spoke about martyrdom and managed to compose a number of chilling phrases: "Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine. This is what our soldiers must become …"— and so on

kowloon

padd b1975 wrote: »

The WWF (World Wildlife Fund)

Seriously shady organisation in terms of how it's funded when you look beyond the pictures of cute pandas.

Too right.

kowloon

Gummy Panda wrote: »

The pandas wrestling in those shows were there of their own free will

Curses upon you, foiled again!

nervous_twitch

MYOB wrote: »

When he could have got the plane down on a runway, and salvageable without risking life. Americans love a "hero" though.

Can you link me to the 'reality' of this story please? I've never heard it and I'm interested.

TheUsual

Tom Cruise.

Karl Stein

Dimithy wrote: »

Something like this?

This man's attitudes were formed by what he saw happening to people in South America. The US was running amok in the region installing anti-democratic puppet regimes at the behest of murderous corporations and ideologues. See United Fruit and Guatemala.

Focussing on Che Guevara's violence without placing it in the wider context of inherently murderous imperialism is little more than useful idiocy.

Da Shins Kelly

I don't think there are any true "heroes". The whole notion comes from people liking to think that some people are perfect and morally upstanding and all the rest. Turning them into these idealized figures is only going to leave you disappointed. The fact is, they're only human.

Rayne Wooney

Batman.


Glorified vigilante who promotes revenge rather than the pursuit of justice

Mardy Bum

There is no such thing as a real life hero pure and simple although there are plenty of fictitious ones. Acts could be described as heroic but attributing heroism as a characteristic of a person is misguided in a post postmodern world.

The Backwards Man

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I don't think there are any true "heroes". The whole notion comes from people liking to think that some people are perfect and morally upstanding and all the rest. Turning them into these idealized figures is only going to leave you disappointed. The fact is, they're only human.

Out of the ruins
Out of the weeckage
Can't make the same mistakes this time

Lando Griffin

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

There were plenty of people fighting it. Their names were Isaac Butt, Charles Stewart Parnell a John Redmond. They were the ones who had the people's support.

The other crowd consisted of men like Padraig Pearse who fantasised about bloodshed and boys arses.

You forgot about the greatest hero of all the rising Dev.
Went on to rule and govern a race of people who were uneducated, poor choiceless.

bnt

John F. Kennedy. Got all his education and built his political career with help from his dad's ill-gotten gains. (Allegations of bootlegging were never proved, but Joe Kennedy did make a mint by "shorting" the Stock Market in 1929.)

JFK's adulterous affairs were legendary, too many to go in to here, but they continued while he was in the Oval Office. He gets too much credit for defusing the Cuban Missile Crisis, which had at least as much to do with advisers such as Robert McNamara (Secretary of Defense) and U Thant (UN Secretary General).

At least his chronic back pain was a justification for his chronic drug use, which (allegedly) included having a major summit meeting with Nikita Khrushchev while high on amphetamines.

Had JFK survived to the end of a second term, and escaped assassination, he wouldn't be as "beatified" as he is today. The way he died tends to overshadow the way he lived.

Dimithy

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

This man's attitudes were formed by what he saw happening to people in South America. The US was running amok in the region installing anti-democratic puppet regimes at the behest of murderous corporations and ideologues. See United Fruit and Guatemala.

Focussing on Che Guevara's violence without placing it in the wider context of inherently murderous imperialism is little more than useful idiocy.

In any context he was a butcher and a bigot.
I'm guessing you'll only vilify one side though?

krudler

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I think there's a bit of a bandwagon going re Mother Teresa. She still did a lot more to help the poor and sick than most others did. And under extremely difficult circumstances in a hell-hole like Calcutta.

She also maintained that living in poverty was a path to heaven and people died in her missions because they were left without proper medical care, she often left people to die in anguish rather than administer painkillers. to quote herself: "There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ's Passion. The world gains much from their suffering,"

suffering, poverty and ill health were blessings in her eyes, although that didn't stop herself recieving healthcare in a first world hospital more than once. Funny how religious icons rarely practice what they preach, despite having a foundation with a river of money going through it any of that was rarely given to poor people, prayers and relgious medallions are what she gave rather than monetary aid.

Duggy747

Mother Teresa may have helped people but that certainly doesn't raise her above criticism for how she went about it, which was terribly misguided. Especially when you consider the sheer amount of money that was involved.

L1011

nervous_twitch wrote: »

Can you link me to the 'reality' of this story please? I've never heard it and I'm interested.

There's a book about it, as well as a lot of forum posts. US obsession has overwritten a lot of it. Guy is an egotist.

Basically he had the altitude to glide the plane in to Teterboro Airport, a large but private only airport in NJ. But he refused and insisted on going in to the river, something relatively un-done. Showboating with peoples lives and a multi-million dollar plane.