British and Irish Lions vs Waratahs, Sat 15 June 10:30am; Sky Sports 2

Quint2010

wonderfullife wrote: »

Lads we all know Warburton starts at 7, we've all known that since April 30th.

On form he's nowhere near the Test side. I admire your faith in Gatland, and agree he is not an idiot, but he's also not going to put his hands up and say "ok i got the captaincy wrong". So Warburton starts simple as that.

Croft is playing really well and if he gets the nod at 6 i can't complain too much.

However if Faletau starts 8 (irrespective of what he does tuesday) then serious questions need to be asked.

Ditto if SOB doesnt make the 23 (which is still possible).

Ditto if Tipuric doesnt make the 23.

If i see the name Lydiate in that 23 it'll be a shambles, he's been the worst of the bunch and not the same player since his injury.

Any tight call and WG will go for the players he knows better. And that means Warburton and Feletau at seven and eight. End of story.

trouttrout

I don't think there's any case for starting Toby F. Heaslip has been far and away the better player, despite the nonsense plugged by Quinnell

Aidric

trouttrout wrote: »

Phillips was well marshaled today and his bad delivery came to the forefront and suddenly he's a very average player. The Australians are going to do the exact same thing next week as they have done in the past

Which is why I'd start Youngs.

trouttrout

Also, wasn't nice to see that Sexton was singled out ala ROG 12 years ago. Smart move getting him off early

Dave_The_Sheep

Quint2010 wrote: »

Any tight call and WG will go for the players he knows better. And that means Warburton and Feletau at seven and eight. End of story.

Trouble is that a lot of people don't think that the 7/8 position is a tight call. Tipuric has been streets ahead of Warburton, and Heaslip is well better than Faletau.

I agree though, that if there's much doubt, or in the case of a 50/50 (or even a 40/60 in the case of Warburton) Gatland will revert to the players he's been with for a while now. It's as frustrating here as it was with Kidney.

trouttrout

Aidric wrote: »

Which is why I'd start Youngs.

I'd start Murray, but that might be the green glasses slipping over my eyes. Would have no complaints about Youngs

wonderfullife

This just now from Ben Kay on radio:

"Maitland didnt play well, Cuthbert has been shown up in defence and i believe Zebo has played himself straight into the Test team with an outstanding performance".

and more:

"Healy, if fit, would have started - however Corbisiero with 1 good show on tuesday may edge past Vunipola who is not the best scrummager"

SlickRic

I'd start Youngs at 9.

a pointless conversation though as Phillips is as nailed on as Halfpenny.

trouttrout

Anyone else notice Zebo didn't stand in at first receiver once after the half time break. Instructions from Gatland maybe?

razorblunt

wonderfullife wrote: »

This just now from Ben Kay on radio:

"Maitland didnt play well, Cuthbert has been shown up in defence and i believe Zebo has played himself straight into the Test team with an outstanding performance".

and more:

"Healy, if fit, would have started - however Corbisiero with 1 good show on tuesday may edge past Vunipola who is not the best scrummager"

Paul Wallace was shouting th same thing for Corbisiero.

sydthebeat

Apart from quinnells spouting, I can't see any argument to show TF being 8 ahead of JH. Heaslip played a full eighty today, so common sense says he won't play any part in tuesdays game. That means TF will have to play most if not all of tuesdays game. The only possible way TF can be saved is for SOB to either replace him from bench or play. if from bench then that means lydiate and tipuric starts, which is good news for SOB for at least a bench spot. If SOB starts and plays a full eighty on tuesday, il will be flabbergasted.

I don't think gatland is a fool. He knows power will beat the wallabies, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a back row of warburton, croft, heaslip.... With tipuric and SOB on bench.

wonderfullife

Ian McGeechan on radio now:

"POC very very good at organising a line-out tactically"

"Jamie Heaslip is a better lineout player than Faletau which is important to secure possession, so Faletau will probably come off the bench for impact".

"Davies impressive but BOD definitely starts at 13, not so sure Davies matches their game plan, so if Roberts is out , would go Tuilagi"

Rightwing

sydthebeat wrote: »

Apart from quinnells spouting, I can't see any argument to show TF being 8 ahead of JH. Heaslip played a full eighty today, so common sense says he won't play any part in tuesdays game. That means TF will have to play most if not all of tuesdays game. The only possible way TF can be saved is for SOB to either replace him from bench or play. if from bench then that means lydiate and tipuric starts, which is good news for SOB for at least a bench spot. If SOB starts and plays a full eighty on tuesday, il will be flabbergasted.

I don't think gatland is a fool. He knows power will beat the wallabies, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a back row of warburton, croft, heaslip.... With tipuric and SOB on bench.

Absolutely, a fantastic coach, he'll pull off a series win.

Buer

Quint2010 wrote: »

Any tight call and WG will go for the players he knows better. And that means Warburton and Feletau at seven and eight. End of story.

Not true at all; Gatland has shown throughout his coaching career absolute ruthlessness to players who have performed for him previously when they're not delivering. I'll be very surprised if Faletau in particular starts and every indication thus far suggests he's not in line to start.

Mahatma Geansai

Sky looks to be turning into a bit of a propaganda machine. Trying to cover their bases so there will be minimal outrage when the Welsh heavy test side is named.

Rightwing

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Sky looks to be turning into a bit of a propaganda machine. Trying to cover their bases so there will be minimal outrage when the Welsh heavy test side is named.

Their ratings from today:

15 Leigh Halfpenny

The Wales full-back was simply faultless as he racked up a record points tally for a Lion. He weighed in with 30 points, including two well-taken tries to prove there is more to his game than just kicking. 9
14 Sean Maitland

It was a missed chance for the Scotland wing, who was outshone by rival Simon Zebo. One missed tackle led to a try for the Waratahs while he lacked the cutting edge out wide with the ball in hand. 6
13 Jonathan Davies

A simply immense performance from the Wales centre. He covered more metres with the ball in hand (115m) but was also a willing runner in support. He carried 14 times and would have no issue slotting into the Test team. 9
12 Jamie Roberts

Had some great charges for the Lions, particularly in the first half, and drew in the defenders. His injury late in the second half, though, will be a massive worry ahead of the first Test. 7
11 Simon Zebo

The Ireland winger almost had a dream start to his Lions career, only for Drew Mitchell's tackle to deny him. He was very lively in the first period as he went looking for the ball. Had a quieter second half but made a key tackle. 8
10 Jonny Sexton

The Waratahs back-row went looking for the Lions No 10 but he coped with it well. His link-up work with the back division was a pleasure to watch and he managed the game brilliantly. 8
9 Mike Phillips

Another player who was targeted by the Waratahs, who did everything they good to slow him down and frustrate him. Phillips, though, stuck to his task well and defended around the breakdown like an extra flanker. 7
1 Mako Vunipola

Underlined his Test credentials with a solid performance. He carried superbly and got stuck into the loose. He forced a couple of turnovers and did nothing wrong in the supposed weakness of the scrum. 7
2 Tom Youngs

Did everything he could to prove he is worthy of a Test start. He tackled brilliantly, ran hard and, crucially, hit his men at the lineout. It was a safety first approach with his throws, but it was mightily effective. 8
3 Adam Jones

There was nothing flashy from Jones, but he is not there to be flash, he is there to scrummage. He tackled and scrummed well, however he was distinctly anonymous elsewhere in the game. 6
4 Alun-Wyn Jones

If there was ever a performance to claim a Test jersey, this was it. Jones put in a massive, massive display. He ran in hard and hit the breakdowns and tackles with everything. 9
5 Paul O'Connell

O'Connell is nailed on for a Test start. His work at the breakdown is something to admire. It is not just forcing the turnover, it is putting the opposition under pressure. He was the leading tackler with 11 when he went off. 7
6 Tom Croft

Picked himself up from being handed off by Drew Mitchell to put in a good display. He showed what he brings to the team with his try, while he brought a little bit of everything to the game. 7
7 Sam Warburton

The Lions skipper was under pressure to perform and he rose to the occasion. He finished with 12 tackles and got stuck into the breakdown. He also lead the side well and did enough to secure his Test place. 7
8 Jamie Heaslip

I suspect that Heaslip will look back at his performance and think he could have done better. He was guilty of a glaring error at one 5m scrum and missed a couple of tackles. Was a willing runner, though. 6

WorldRugby99

roberts,phillips and warburton were all no more than a 6/10-were all pretty average against a waratahs team missing about 9 starters. sky seem to be cheerleading and bigging up the welsh boys more than any others!

Kiwi_knock

Aussie management will be pleased the lack of effect that Phillips and Roberts when they are shut down, it is key to their plans.

Mahatma Geansai

POC only getting a 7 is bewildering. Best player on the park today imo.

Rightwing

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Aussie management will be pleased the lack of effect that Phillips and Roberts when they are shut down, it is key to their plans.

That's true, but it doesn't mean Philips won't come good the next day, will be interesting to watch.

Hottowel

Buer wrote: »

The mere fact that he'll probably be starting on Tuesday will work against him. Brumbies is going to be a really tough game. Can't see many, if any, starting that game and then starting next Saturday.

There is no way heaslip will start on Tuesday that's two games on the trot he was blowing today.

If he's going with falatu he will start with sob at 8 on Tuesday and give falatu a 20 min cameo

neilmulvey

Buer wrote: »

Not true at all; Gatland has shown throughout his coaching career absolute ruthlessness to players who have performed for him previously when they're not delivering. I'll be very surprised if Faletau in particular starts and every indication thus far suggests he's not in line to start.

Would agree with this. Sky pundits are generally awful at the best of times. Complete lack of objectivity.


Tipuric/Warburton, Croft, Heaslip will be the backrow. The rest would be straightforward IMO.

Roberts getting injured could be a major turning point in the tour. Him and BOD together would have been great. Farrell is an imposter. Lot of hype about him but he is a very poor version of Wilkinson. If Roberts is out, the Tuilagi would be most likely. Can Jonathan Davies play 12?

Think the Lions success in the test series depends on 6 players staying fit for the duration (AJ, POC, JH, JS, BOD, LH).

Grandpa Hassan

neilmulvey wrote: »

Think the Lions success in the test series depends on 6 players staying fit for the duration (AJ, POC, JH, JS, BOD, LH).

JH? That crucial? Really?

Rightwing

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

JH? That crucial? Really?

The only crucial ones, if indeed any are, are POC/Sexton/Halfpenny.

Hottowel

Don't think the fitness of Jamie heaslip will determine the tour

Poc- needs to be fit
Js- prob most of all needs to be fit

If it was sa or nz Adam jones would be vital but Aussies aren't as strong so while he's a test starter he's not as important.

George north is a bigger loss than halfpenny or bod in my opinion.

razorblunt

Sky should only be watched for the two halfs of 40 minutes, even then on mute while you sit there shouting "lalalalalalalalalalala". Youre still more on the point than Barnesy and the other talking heads.

corny

I'm still baffled as to what Warburton brings to the game that warrants a test place. His shorts were spotless on the 60 minute mark! He moves around a lot and that doesn't mean works hard because he makes no hard yards carrying nor does he ever have to tackle around the fringes. His tackle count is high because he stands in midfield making double tackles on backs. He's an absolute imposter.

I'd prefer SOB at 6 but at least i can see the rationale for Croft. But Warburton V Tipuric/SOB....its not even close.

Rant over. AWJ deserves his spot ahead of Gray now.

I'm actually laughing thinking back at the calls (by some) for Farrell ahead of Sexton. Without the Sarries or England highly structured approach he's lost.

Cole might not be as strong in the scrum but Jones gave two penalties away and that was his nights work. He doesn't deserve his place.

I hope Zebo gets in ahead of Cuthbert.

neilmulvey

I think for continuity between backs and forwards I think having Heaslip available is important. The nature of this type of tour means there will be about 25-30% changing of personnel due to injury so keeping a core group in key positions available could be decisive. This series is there for the taking.

Funkstard

Any highlights available yet? Haven't been able to source any

phog

I was happy enough with the game and the result, even if we gifted them a try, we stood around while they took a quick penalty and Maitland missed his tackle, I thought he had him but just let him slip through his hands.

Zebo had a terrific first half but was a lot quieter in the 2nd half, really hoped he score after being caught in touch for his first. Heaslip had a great last 30 mins when a lot of the Lions seemed to have taken their foot of the pedal. Paulie was immense, how Munster & Ireland missed him this season.

CowboyTed

razorblunt wrote: »

Sky should only be watched for the two halfs of 40 minutes, even then on mute while you sit there shouting "lalalalalalalalalalala". Youre still more on the point than Barnesy and the other talking heads.

Sky Sports Nightmare is close to happening... Already looks like no Scots.. There is a possibility that only one english man will make the 15 and that guy as a prop(ie Workhorse, no sprints for the line)... For there largest market is worrying...

Of course they are pushing Croft.. They have to and all the pundits were told to cop on and put the pressure on for more English... The Back Row was there only chance... SOB has easily out played Croft in Australia and at home, Turpic has out played Warbuton, Heaslip over Faletau...

Pick on form or watch your moral go through the floor...

copacetic

Warburton did ok, but only ok, enough to secure his place as he is captain already.

Ironically, POC and BOD missed out on tour captaincy as they weren't nailed on starters, now along with Sexton and Halfpenny and he wingers they are streets ahead of Warburton in certainty to start.

chippers

Sean O'Brien has to be one of the first names on the team sheet. If he is benched next weekend he will come on and make a mockery of Gatlands original team selection. I hope Gatland realises this and makes the right call starting him.

CowboyTed

copacetic wrote: »

Warburton did ok, but only ok, enough to secure his place as he is captain already.

Ironically, POC and BOD missed out on tour captaincy as they weren't nailed on starters, now along with Sexton and Halfpenny and he wingers they are streets ahead of Warburton in certainty to start.

Had to love Sky today every time Warburton spoke to the Ref.. It was he was the Oracle and only he knew how to speak to a ref.. Truly Embarrassing..

schools rugby

Gatland said that if Warburton is going to start it will be at 7 , Tipuric must feel incredibly unlucky at the moment

trouttrout

More I think about it, there more I feel SOB might well start at 6. It's basically between himself and Croft now and while I did think Croft was good today, I think SOB has been better

tolosenc

Making Warburton captain was a huge error. Gatland is compelled to start him, even though there are at least two better options at 7. The back row is the most tightly contested, but I'd go for SOB-Tipuric-Heaslip with Faletau on the bench for the 1st test.

schools rugby

POC was brilliant at the breakdown today , he made more turnovers today that Warburton has all tour

WorldRugby99

CowboyTed wrote: »

Sky Sports Nightmare is close to happening... Already looks like no Scots.. There is a possibility that only one english man will make the 15 and that guy as a prop(ie Workhorse, no sprints for the line)... For there largest market is worrying...

Of course they are pushing Croft.. They have to and all the pundits were told to cop on and put the pressure on for more English... The Back Row was there only chance... SOB has easily out played Croft in Australia and at home, Turpic has out played Warbuton, Heaslip over Faletau...

Pick on form or watch your moral go through the floor...

what rubbish-if anything the sky team has been bigging up and pushing the welsh players despite the fact many of them have had pretty mediocre tours so far.Also there have been only 2 remotely difficult teams-reds and waratahs-performances against the other teams,including o briens cant really be taken in same context.im not saying o brien shouldnt have been given a chance,he should but you must take into account the weaker opposition-most players looked good against force,country.

Re adam jones-is it just me or he is devoid of criticism? im not syaing he shouldnt start or that his scrummaging isnt very good but hes a passenger outside scrumtime-contributes nothing when compared to his front row partners vunipola,youngs.

chippers

Warburton has always been said to be the specialist at the breakdown. The person we need to compete against the ozzies - robbing ball / slowing down play etc. He hasn't done any of this in the two games he has played. Am I missing something? He has been nowhere at the breakdown.

19543261

When was the last time Warburton was performing well? Why was he made captain in the first place?

chippers

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

what rubbish-if anything the sky team has been bigging up and pushing the welsh players despite the fact many of them have had pretty mediocre tours so far.Also there have been only 2 remotely difficult teams-reds and waratahs-performances against the other teams,including o briens cant really be taken in same context.im not saying o brien shouldnt have been given a chance,he should but you must take into account the weaker opposition-most players looked good against force,country.

Phillips was parachuted into the starting 9 jersey based on his performance against the Barbarians. Against a better team today he looked a lot more average.

Brendog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy0fuTQb2cg

trouttrout

chippers wrote: »

Phillips was parachuted into the starting 9 jersey based on his performance against the Barbarians. Against a better team today he looked a lot more average.

Even against the Barbarians his delivery was terrible

Been saying it on this board for ages, but he's a ferociously overrated player

danthefan

All the Lions SHs are flawed. Murray's delivery is hardly better than Philips and Youngs plays his crazy, high-tempo game for every single minute he's on the field which sometimes just doesn't work. Philips has performed at by far the highest level of the three though, he's done it on a Lions tour, and tbh I'd go for Philips.

schools rugby

trouttrout wrote: »

Even against the Barbarians his delivery was terrible

Been saying it on this board for ages, but he's a ferociously overrated player

Funnily enough I think that Murray is the most suited 9 for the test games against Australia.

Phillips - Great on front foot ball but hes a marked man and probably wont get the opportunity to snipe around the fringes. He is playing the way he was in the Six Nations (pre-England game).

Youngs - Great to have off the bench especially if Gatland wanted to bring on the two Youngs and Parling at 60 mins. Not as good at controlling the game as much as the other two .

Murray - Best kicking game and as good as Phillips at controlling the game, marginally better in defence too.

WorldRugby99

chippers wrote: »

Phillips was parachuted into the starting 9 jersey based on his performance against the Barbarians. Against a better team today he looked a lot more average.

phillips wasnt parachuted in after ba baas game,phillips has been gatlands choice at 9 since he picked (and probably long before) the squad initially. Gatland wants to play a power game and believes against genia a big,physical scrum half is needed.Regardless of his performances gatland will pick him-roberts likewise at 12,warburton the same at 7.Gatlands favourites were always going to start-they are part of his long term plan.

Kiwi_knock

Phillips has looked poor against Australia in the past, has been outshone by Genia and Phipps. I think Australia would be happy with Phillips at 9.

19543261

Why do people rate Phillips ahead of Murray? They both look similar in how they play (and how well).

CowboyTed

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

what rubbish-if anything the sky team has been bigging up and pushing the welsh players despite the fact many of them have had pretty mediocre tours so far.Also there have been only 2 remotely difficult teams-reds and waratahs-performances against the other teams,including o briens cant really be taken in same context.im not saying o brien shouldnt have been given a chance,he should but you must take into account the weaker opposition-most players looked good against force,country.

Re adam jones-is it just me or he is devoid of criticism? im not syaing he shouldnt start or that his scrummaging isnt very good but hes a passenger outside scrumtime-contributes nothing when compared to his front row partners vunipola,youngs.

Explain how all the pundits went for Faletau and Croft... Get serious... SOB was and after thought...

SOB and Turpic can only do what they can with the opposition they got. Gatland didn't play them against the Reds or Waratah... He can't use the excuse of opposition...
If he had no intention of giving Turpic and SOB a chance. He might have well told SOB and Turpic at the start of the tour to feck off into the corner and don't bother the real players (by playing well and increasing the pressure) because unless someone gets injured your here as spectators...