Do you have a dog licence?

HurtLocker

TireeTerror wrote: »

Hi DB, I was using my phone earlier when I read your post first, so missed the link! Im on my desktop now.

I had a good read of that page. What terrifying powers they have.

@hurtlocker I thought they required to have reasonable grounds to suspect you of an offence too, however the second part of the link that DB provided clearly states that the warden may detain the animal to ascertain if an offence is being, or has been committed.

"A dog warden may

(a) where he has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing, or has committed, an offence under this Act or under any regulation or bye-law made thereunder, request of the person his name and address and may request that any information given be verified;

(b) seize any dog and detain it in order to ascertain whether an offence under this Act is being or has been committed and may enter any premises (other than a dwelling) for the purposes of such seizure and detention;"

To me that sounds as if he can grab my dog and then investigate a bit further to confirm a persons identity/address. So based on that, the warden can grab your dag when you could be completely innocent, and therefore your dog would have been taken despite you having a licence and no offence having been committed.

Im torn in two minds about this. On one hand I understand they have to be given powers to enable them to carry out their duty effectively, on the other hand I fear any laws which could so easily be abused by someone in power.

Im fairly sure I wont even bump into a dog warden where I am, but now I know to run a mile if they come near!

Yes true but they cant enter your dwelling to take a dog. And seeing as 3 out of 4 dogs are licenced I doubt they take any dogs as they probably meet more walls of silence than people with papers in hand. Of course they can take aggressive dogs away with or without a licence. Unless you got a very small dog I doubt they'd risk taking a dog for just a licence. I know my dog would snap if a stranger tried to load him into a van while I got very angry. Also they'd have to feed and take care of the dog. I'd say taking a dog from a home just for not having a licence would be a no-no. First they would need to enter your back garden and then basically steal the dog. I lock my side gates specifically to stop my dog getting out and secondly prevent people stealing my dog. Say nothing and bring your dog indoors would be my advice.

DBB

HurtLocker wrote: »

Yes true but they cant enter your dwelling to take a dog. And seeing as 3 out of 4 dogs are licenced I doubt they take any dogs as they probably meet more walls of silence than people with papers in hand. Of course they can take aggressive dogs away with or without a licence. Unless you got a very small dog I doubt they'd risk taking a dog for just a licence. I know my dog would snap if a stranger tried to load him into a van while I got very angry. Also they'd have to feed and take care of the dog. I'd say taking a dog from a home just for not having a licence would be a no-no. First they would need to enter your back garden and then basically steal the dog. I lock my side gates specifically to stop my dog getting out and secondly prevent people stealing my dog. Say nothing and bring your dog indoors would be my advice.

I can't help but think you're being a tad paranoid!
The warden can not enter your curtilage to seize your dog without a warrant. If he was to do that, then he is breaking the law, and you have absolute redress. He can, however, approach you to consult with you at your front door on any issue relating tot he Control of Dogs Act: all members of the public have reasonable egress to your property via your driveway, as far as your front door. If you try to stop him from carrying out his powers, you are guilty of an offence, no matter whether you hide your dog, lie, close the door in his face, whatever other nonsense ideas you're going to put forward. The warden cannot abuse his powers, and cannot come into your house, or around the back of your house, unless he has a warrant, which he cannot get unless he convinces a Garda that he needs one, the Garda then needs to convince a judge to issue one.
I can find no reference under the Control of Dogs Acts under the less serious offences that the dog stands forfeit if the owner is found guilty of an offence. Therefore, it is extremely unlikely that the warden will seize the dog unless for some reason he requires the dog itself as evidence. This is just not the case for a breach of the license laws. All breaches of the licensing laws result in a fine (whether a fixed penalty notice, or upon conviction in court). It's only when things start to get much more serious that dogs can be held (at the owner's expense, I might add, not the State's) until a judgement has been made in court.
The wardens can't just make up the laws as they go along: I think more careful reading of the legislation is required here, tbh.

HurtLocker

DBB wrote: »

Yes, it is grounds to ask for a license. It is the law to hold a license for a dog: it is an offence not to. Therefore, it is the right of the warden, whose job it is to enforce the dog control laws, to ask any dog owner for their license, no matter what the dog owner is doing at the time: this goes for whether the owner is walking down the street with their dog, or whether the warden calls to the door, which he is perfectly entitled to do. Same goes for the AGS with cars. Same goes for any other licensed activity that requires the production of a licence on request.

Under what reasonable grounds could a person construe that walking your dog means you may have committed an offence.

"(1) A dog warden may—

(a) where he has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing, or has committed, an offence under this Act or under any regulation or bye-law made thereunder, request of the person his name and address and may request that any information given be verified;"
Seeing a dog in a park isn't reasonable grounds that you dont have a licence. If they are calling to the door it's different, but still they lack any bite when it comes to enforcement.


Just remain silent and dont give them grounds to believe you dont have a licence. As the OP says 3 out of 4 dogs are unlicenced. Clearly Im missing something here but the DW's powers are weak and enforcement is lacking.

DBB wrote: »

So, the warden approaches you, and asks do you own X dog. You say "Yes". He says, "Do you have a license for that dog", you say "No". Now, the warden very much has grounds to ask you for your name and address, and has the power to do so under the Control of Dogs Act. If you say "yes", he still has to power to ask you for your details so that he can corroborate what you've said: licensing systems simply cannot work unless the authorised officer has this power. I don't know of any licensed activity under which the authorised officer, with a warrant to enforce the terms of said license, does not have the power to ask for the license holder's name and address once the license holder is, or has been engaged in an activity related to that license.

Dog Warden:Hi, Im the Warden. Is this your dog.
Dog is off lead.
Me:....
Dog Warden: Do you have a...
Me:Am I under arrest?
DW: No.. Do you have a..
Me: So Im free to go?
DW: Ive just want to ask a few questions.
Me:*Walks away*
How likely is the warden to harass me by following me. I've given him no evidence that Ive no licence, just that Im have no time for questions. I havent let him ask any questions so I havent refused to answer anything.

As for if he calls to the door.
DW: Hello sir
Me: I see clip board and tag.
Me:*Dont open front door*
I have not let him identify himself so he cant say I knew who he was. He cant get a warrant for no licence. AGS have better things to do than chase €20.

DBB wrote: »

It's not as if a randomer comes to your door or approaches you on the street to ask you for your dog license: they are uniformed, and must presumably make their identity known to the person.

With all the cold callers, aggressive salesmen and bogus charities around I think I well within my rights to not even answer the door to unannounced callers

DBB wrote: »

For the record, I have been approached by the local warden whilst out walking my dogs, and asked for a license. He could confirm my answer there and then with an electronic device he had. I read regularly of cases in the local press whereby owners are prosecuted for not having a license for their dog/refusing to comply with the warden's powers/not picking up their dog's dirt/allowing their dogs out in public alone etc. Just because you haven't seen it happen, doesn't mean it doesn't and doesn't mean that warden has no right to enforce his powers!
Whilst I appreciate that the uptake of licenses isn't great in many (not all) counties, I think this has more to do with lack of staff/resources than it has to do with whether the wardens have the power to ask for a license on the street!

Sounds fancy. Ive never seen a dog warden in a public park or walkway.

If you do that, then the warden (who will have identified himself when you open the door) will go back to the records to see is there a license issued to the dog on the premises. If he finds there isn't, there'll potentially be a fixed-penalty-notice winging it's way in the post to you for being in possession of an unlicensed dog.
Furthermore, by not complying with the warden under his powers, you may very well find a summons to court following soon after for either obstructing him (obstruction does not have to be physical), or refusing to comply.

A person can close the door before they identify themselves.This is getting too complicated now. If he doesn't have your name he cant have a summons sent to you. A summons cant be addressed to "The Resident" or "Dog owner".

You're missing the point. The warden has just as much right as anyone else, be it a Garda, a pizza delivery guy, the postman, a neighbour, to come up your driveway and knock on your door. He is also entitled, at your doorstep, to ask if the dog he has presumably seen/heard on your premises is licensed, and to see said license.
A warrant is required only if the warden needs to enter the dwelling, beyond the doorstep, to carry out his duties. CRMIReland seemed to think that the warden was going to climb his 8 foot walls in order to see if he had a license!

Don't even have to open the front door. Look out the window and walk away if you don't like the cut of them. Again so many bogus collectors and con men around it's not that unusual to not open the door. This is for €20. He'll move on to the next house which more than likely has no licence and hope to catch them out.

Yes, you have committed an offence. It is an offence not to give your name to a dog warden when asked. Again, you might win the battle, but not the war. Await a summons in the post.

From the Control of Dogs Act, 1986, S.6:

(3) Any person who—

(a) obstructs or impedes a dog warden in the exercise of his functions under this Act, or

(b) refuses to give his name and address to a dog warden when requested so to do, or who gives a name or address which is false or misleading when so requested,

shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to—

(i) in case the offence is an offence under paragraph (a) of this subsection, a fine not exceeding £500, or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one month, or, at the discretion of the court, to both such fine and such imprisonment, or

(ii) in case the offence is an offence under paragraph (b) of this subsection, a fine not exceeding £100.

Jaysus from all this legislation it sounds like it's easier to steal a dog than it is to evade the dog warden.

EDIT: Pay for your licence if you wish. I get no benefits from it in 5 years and they've the cheek to double it now. Im not paranoid thank you very much.

diegroblers

Edit: Never mind me; I'm blathering'

DBB

HurtLocker wrote: »

Under what reasonable grounds could a person construe that walking your dog means you may have committed an offence.

Walking your dog under effectual control is not an offense. Not having a license is an offense. The warden can easily form the conclusion that an owner is walking an unlicensed dog, what with their records of who has bought their licenses. Such is the culture of litigation in our world, you don't seriously expect a warden to approach people on the street without having the powers to do so?

Just remain silent and dont give them grounds to believe you dont have a licence. As the OP says 3 out of 4 dogs are unlicenced. Clearly Im missing something here but the DW's powers are weak and enforcement is lacking.

Enforcement might be lacking where you are, but that does not mean it is lacking in all counties. The dog control laws are pretty well enforced where I am, relatively speaking.
Remaining silent is no defense, for reasons I have posted several times now. You might win the battle on the day, but failing to comply with a dog warden's request for your details is an offense for which you can expect a present in the post.

How likely is the warden to harass me by following me. I've given him no evidence that Ive no licence, just that Im have no time for questions. I havent let him ask any questions so I havent refused to answer anything.

Why would he harass you? All he has to do is call AGS and get them to extract your details to prosecute you for impeding the warden in carrying out his duties

I have not let him identify himself so he cant say I knew who he was. He cant get a warrant for no licence. AGS have better things to do than chase €20.

With all the cold callers, aggressive salesmen and bogus charities around I think I well within my rights to not even answer the door to unannounced callers

Sure, but it's a moot point. As he knows where you live, it's a simple matter of him checking their records to see have you bought a license. No record, expect a fine.

Sounds fancy. Ive never seen a dog warden in a public park or walkway.

Fancy? Huh? Anyway, as I said, just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, because it does.

A person can close the door before they identify themselves.This is getting too complicated now. If he doesn't have your name he cant have a summons sent to you. A summons cant be addressed to "The Resident" or "Dog owner".

But if they're at your house, they're gonna easily find out who you are! The occupier of the house is an easy thing for them to find out, the occupier being the one who is assumed to be the dog's owner under the legislation. there'd be no problem whatsoever to send a summons to the named owner/occupier of the house, and dog.

EDIT: Pay for your licence if you wish. I get no benefits from it in 5 years and they've the cheek to double it now. Im not paranoid thank you very much.

No benefits, no? So, you have no stray dogs or horse in your county, have you?
My remarks about paranoia relate entirely to your advising people to hide your dog, ignore the warden etc. It's all a bit mad, and is absolutely no defense. The fact that you think it is is just... baffling.

HurtLocker

Okay this is going on far too long.
Ill lay it out from my view.

+In the past 5 years Ive given to Cork City Council €62.50 only to find no one else in my area has one. That's alot.
+This year Im getting a second dog. So going by the letter if the law Im expected to shell out €40 this year for nothing while none of my friends have a licence.
+Stray dogs/abandoned dogs are a problem for the community in general. Just because I own a dog shouldn't mean I should have to contribute to solve a problem I am as guilty of causing as the bloke next door who hates dogs for causing.:mad:
+There is no cat licence yet wild cats in my area are far more common than abandoned dogs. Is it my dog licence moneys being used to euthanize these cats?
+If so why is there no cat licence?
+I know from asking people how easy it is to avoid the warden. I am satisfied that the warden can do next to nothing from taking to friends and reading the legislation.
+Again the total lack of enforcement means the government has decided the 25% of law abiding citizens must pay nearly double to continue to be law abiding. No increase in enforcement. Its a cop out and Ive enough.
+My decision will save me money.
+The Vat dog owners pay on dog related goods far exceeds the €20. The government should ring fence this Vat, the status quo they are currently maintaining is a joke. I refuse to continue to be in the minority upholding it. Either everyone pays up or no one should. 3 in 4 don't.

Any idea what Ill spend my €40 on? I think Ill give it to the Guide Dogs. Who do think will spend it better?

are you serious

This thread has turned into a wind up imho, with DBB being on the end of it..

DBB

are you serious wrote: »

This thread has turned into a wind up imho, with DBB being on the end of it..

I'm inclined to agree.
I think, hurtlocker, you might be better off saving your strange little campaign as outlined above for someone who can do something about it. Not knowing the law at all, advocating that people break the law, and pretending those laws don't exist, or can be ignored by just not answering the door in case the dog warden turns out to be a serial murderer, is not how I'd go about it, because I'd prefer that people take me seriously.
Not to put too fine a point on it, and because my head would melt if I tried to make any sense out of your posts, I'm out.
Good luck with it all.

Ms2011

I've 3 dogs & no licences.
The warden has called twice to my neighbourhood in the last 2 years or so. The first time they called I said I had no dogs, the second time I wasn't home ( a neighbour told me they'd called).
I've been approached twice while out walking as I don't have my RB on a leash at all times. Both times I was just asked to put the dog back on the lead, no mention of a muzzle or a licence.

JustAThought

Ms2011 wrote: »

I've 3 dogs & no licences.
The warden has called twice to my neighbourhood in the last 2 years or so. The first time they called I said I had no dogs, the second time I wasn't home ( a neighbour told me they'd called).
I've been approached twice while out walking as I don't have my RB on a leash at all times. Both times I was just asked to put the dog back on the lead, no mention of a muzzle or a licence.

Going to prove what a waste of money the license is.

Ms2011

JustAThought wrote: »

Going to prove what a waste of money the license is.

Definately!
I'd rather put the money to good food, vet care & kennelling for my dogs than to throw it into a black hole where God only knows where it goes & for what!

tk123

HurtLocker wrote: »

Dog Warden:Hi, Im the Warden. Is this your dog.
Dog is off lead.
Me:....
Dog Warden: Do you have a...
Me:Am I under arrest?
DW: No.. Do you have a..
Me: So Im free to go?
DW: Ive just want to ask a few questions.
Me:*Walks away*
How likely is the warden to harass me by following me. I've given him no evidence that Ive no licence, just that Im have no time for questions. I havent let him ask any questions so I havent refused to answer anything.

:rolleyes:

Have you ever actually met a dog warden or are you just talking it up?!.. because in real life it goes(well in our park in Dublin anyways)

DW : "Hello would you mind putting your dog back on the lead please? They're only allowed off before 11 and during the last hour before closing.."
Owner : "No problem, sorry about that" **lead goes on**
DW : "Thanks very much" ** drives out off into the sunset
**lead goes off**

The only people who get asked for licenses in our area are tools who argue with him trying to act cool - "I pay your wages with my taxes blah blah blah"

I have a license for my dog and will be getting a second one for the pup btw..

nudger

It's not very nice having to deal with a RB dog running free of the lead and those who think it's grand are thick.
As a family we often go the Phoenix park during the summer and bring frisbie's, tennis rackets, hurleys, etc and have a bit of fun.
On one of these days when I was with the daughter a pitbull came bounding through the long grass as I was off getting a ball, out of the corner of my eye I seen the dog and the change in his demeanor, I ran to cut him off but you could see he was focused on my daughter aged 6 at the time, I just made it in time and I'm sure he would have mauled her if I hadn't made it.
Scumbag owner came running giving out sh1t to me for hitting his dog.

Knine

nudger wrote: »

It's not very nice having to deal with a RB dog running free of the lead and those who think it's grand are thick.
As a family we often go the Phoenix park during the summer and bring frisbie's, tennis rackets, hurleys, etc and have a bit of fun.
On one of these days when I was with the daughter a pitbull came bounding through the long grass as I was off getting a ball, out of the corner of my eye I seen the dog and the change in his demeanor, I ran to cut him off but you could see he was focused on my daughter aged 6 at the time, I just made it in time and I'm sure he would have mauled her if I hadn't made it.
Scumbag owner came running giving out sh1t to me for hitting his dog.

A bit of an over reaction and a good way to teach your daughter to be scared of dogs. He probably would have ran over to your daughter and licked her. However I do agree the dog should have been under control but that applies to any breed of dog.

johndoe99

Dog Warden came to my home asked if i had dogs, i said no. He said your neighbour said you have 3, i said there wrong i have none and i closed the door. That was 3 years ago, never heard anything about it again.

nudger

Knine wrote: »

A bit of an over reaction and a good way to teach your daughter to be scared of dogs. He probably would have ran over to your daughter and licked her. However I do agree the dog should have been under control but that applies to any breed of dog.

She had every reason to be afraid this thing was in attack mode and had enough scars on it's face to let me know it was a fighting dog.
The owner, Skinhead, tattoo's, gold sovereign rings, nice guy no doubt, couldn't give a crap about my daughter only the dog, franticly checking his pockets to see had he anything on him to have a go.
Only that I'm a bit of a lump and had a 9 iron things could have got a lot worse.

Knine

nudger wrote: »

She had every reason to be afraid this thing was in attack mode and had enough scars on it's face to let me know it was a fighting dog.
The owner, Skinhead, tattoo's, gold sovereign rings, nice guy no doubt, couldn't give a crap about my daughter only the dog, franticly checking his pockets to see had he anything on him to have a go.
Only that I'm a bit of a lump and had a 9 iron things could have got a lot worse.

I guess this dog in 'attack mode' attacked you so? You did mention the owner was upset you hit it?

tk123

nudger wrote: »

Scumbag owner came running giving out sh1t to me for hitting his dog.

Did the dog maul you then for hitting it since it was so vicious and all?:rolleyes: Also you may not have noticed but there's a few 100 deer knocking around the Phoenix Park which would me much more interesting to dogs then boring kids.

Back on topic the warden came when we had our dog a week (he's 4 next month) so just a baby... since then he's been trained by somebody (not me :mad:) to bark the place down if there's a knock on the door so I'd love for him to call again just so I could say "nope - no dogs here " for a laugh. Our license is stuck to the fridge with a magnet just in case lol! I think for the pup I'll get a lifetime license since it's less hassle and inflation proof?

nudger

Knine wrote: »

I guess this dog in 'attack mode' attacked you so? You did mention the owner was upset you hit it?

Yes, when I got in the middle it stopped then came on, if I hadn't had the club I recon I was fecked.
By the way We have a dog on request of my daughter for her birthday 7 years ago, a rescue dog from Ashtown dog pound, it's a mid sized heinz 57 but she loves it.
She has no fear of dogs or any animals and her ideal day out is the zoo but she was very upset after the attack.

toadfly

nudger wrote: »

She has no fear of dogs or any animals and her ideal day out is the zoo but she was very upset after the attack.

What attack?

tk123

TillyGirl wrote: »

What attack?

If somebody hit my dog with a golf club I'd classify it as an attack.

Nody

tk123 wrote: »

If somebody hit my dog with a golf club I'd classify it as an attack.

If you let your dog run freely against someone then then you also empower said person to take care of it as I see fit based on their experience. It is the owners job to keep their dog under control; not the other way around.

As an example I had a owner (unknown person to me) have their dog (mid/large size around 30kg) run up to me barking his head off as I was helping someone move in; the owners had no control over the dog (kept on calling it back with out effect) and commented "well he's not afraid of you, hehehe". Lucky for him I'm not afraid of dogs or I'd have given it a good kick to make sure it would fear me in the future because that dog is in my personal space because their owner is a moron with out control over it (and yes I pity the dog for having such a moron of an owner).

diegroblers

Knine wrote: »

A bit of an over reaction and a good way to teach your daughter to be scared of dogs. He probably would have ran over to your daughter and licked her. However I do agree the dog should have been under control but that applies to any breed of dog.

What do you suggest in such a case? Should we wait and see first what the RB is going to do?

Here in the green (DLR) EVERYONE has their dogs off leashes and I've NEVER seen a RB muzzled. I doubt whether there is wardens around here. I got stormed by three Alsatians and they only left me alone because something else attracted their attention. What do you think my chances would have been?

Remember, it's like if you drive without a license: even if the the other person is a tool and causes a situation, you are the one that will go to court...

I'll be getting a license for Georgie, regardless, I just couldn't be bothered to try and buck the system for €20. To me, the stress is not worth it.

DeVore

Rescuing Josh they made me buy a licence for him, which seemed fair enough.

muddypaws

DeVore wrote: »

Rescuing Josh they made me buy a licence for him, which seemed fair enough.

Even that isn't without its issues though :rolleyes: We adopted a dog from Louth pound, we live in Sligo, the licence was issued in Louth, so we then had to buy another one for him in Sligo.

boomerang

diegroblers wrote: »

I got stormed by three Alsatians and they only left me alone because something else attracted their attention. What do you think my chances would have been?

The chances of their tails wagging at you mercilessly would have been pretty high.

boomerang

nudger wrote: »

She had every reason to be afraid this thing was in attack mode and had enough scars on it's face to let me know it was a fighting dog.

It doesn't mean that the dog is in any way a danger to your child. Dog aggression and human aggression are two completely different things - one doesn't follow the other.

anniehoo

Can I just remind everyone this is a discussion about dog licences, for EVERY breed of dog. It is turning into a debate on Restricted Breeds and is veering slightly off topic.

Please keep your points relevant to the thread title. Thank you.

nala2012

I don't have licence for my dogs. Warden was at my house to collect a stray last year and he was asking about my dogs but didn't ask about licences. Anyone know if you're required to have a dog licence for racing greyhounds?

nudger

Received my renewal notice today, have to have it done by a date (a year late) so I guess they are playing hard ball so be warned.
I'm guessing they will come after people who have payed before and are on the system.
Bought the licence 2 weeks ago.