Can't open a new account.

Gosub

What has the banking world come to? I've bought a house in Wexford, which I intend to move to when I return to Ireland. I went into PTSB in Wexford town to open a new account.I have an some accounts with AIB in Dublin, which I have held for over 40 years, but I wanted to move my banking to PTSB.

The very nice lady at PTSB told me she cannot open an account for me. I had my passport, I had a letter from my solicitor that I had closed on the house, I had a handful of cash. What did I need? ... a fricken houshold bill! Now, I've just bought the house so no electricity, phone or HHC bill. I'm returning to Ireland having sold my house in Spain, so no house in Spain to show her bills for.

The end result was frustration and failure. I now have a question: If I decided to live 'off-grid' with my own electricty generator, would I be forever barred from opening a bank account?

I was told that foreign nationals are renting a flat, getting an electricity bill, opening an account and vanishing from the flat. I don't know what they are doing with these accounts, but I could guess. The whole system is a mess!

Anyone

Gosub wrote: »

The end result was frustration and failure. I now have a question: If I decided to live 'off-grid' with my own electricty generator, would I be forever barred from opening a bank account?

If you cant provide proof of your address, you cant open an account, its a pretty basic requirement these days, I think you are only annoyed because they couldn't facilitate you.

Gosub

Anyone wrote: »

If you cant provide proof of your address, you cant open an account, its a pretty basic requirement these days, I think you are only annoyed because they couldn't facilitate you.

Of course I was annoyed because they couldn't facilitate me. They should have been able to take my business! I was as annoyed as the lady dealing with me. She was frustrated and apologetic. Being a basic requirement is all well and good, but how would you suggest I provide proof of address? A letter from a local solicitor stating that I have just acquired a property, and detailing the address of same, meant nothing. The solicitor told me that the letter should satisfy the money laundering legislation, but I faced this fixation on a houshold bill.

So, let me get this straight. You think the system is perfect and I'm in the wrong somehow? The system should have a way to facilitate people in my situation, otherwise it's imperfect.

The_Morrigan

Proof of address doesn't have to be a utility bill...letters and documents from revenue are also acceptable, so by all accounts you can live off grid, assuming you are still going to be paying tax in Ireland, you will have proof of address.

Edit. You could also change your address with AIB and have them send you out some statements.

Gosub

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Proof of address doesn't have to be a utility bill...letters and documents from revenue are also acceptable, so by all accounts you can live off grid, assuming you are still going to be paying tax in Ireland, you will have proof of address.

But this is of no use to me until I can change my address, for tax purposes, to my new house.

Reply edit.: I would have to change my banking setup, as my statements are paperless and accessed online only. But you're right, I could do this. Point is, I shouldn't have to.

Anyone

Gosub wrote: »

Of course I was annoyed because they couldn't facilitate me. They should have been able to take my business! I was as annoyed as the lady dealing with me. She was frustrated and apologetic. Being a basic requirement is all well and good, but how would you suggest I provide proof of address? A letter from a local solicitor stating that I have just acquired a property, and detailing the address of same, meant nothing. The solicitor told me that the letter should satisfy the money laundering legislation, but I faced this fixation on a houshold bill.

So, let me get this straight. You think the system is perfect and I'm in the wrong somehow? The system should have a way to facilitate people in my situation, otherwise it's imperfect.

Theres no such thing as a perfect system.

https://www.permanenttsb.ie/whatweoffer/current-accounts/current-account/requireddocuments/

Theres all the requirements you need to open an account with PTSB. It shows all the acceptable methods of address proof. Just to save you more annoyance when you go back in, make sure you have proof of your pps number as well.

The_Morrigan

Gosub wrote: »

But this is of no use to me until I can change my address, for tax purposes, to my new house.

Look, you can be annoyed as you like, but the proof of address under anti money laundering policies in banks stems from EU and Irish law. You have to provide it, so either wait or find a way to get a bill or government document with your new address sent to you. There is no way around it.

The_Morrigan

They accept electronic statements...print them out. And yes you should have to do it. Its the law.

Anyone

Gosub wrote: »

Point is, I shouldn't have to.

Its a legal requirement for opening a bank account, so you should have to. What makes you think you should be exempt from the law?

Gosub

Anyone wrote: »

Theres no such thing as a perfect system.

https://www.permanenttsb.ie/whatweoffer/current-accounts/current-account/requireddocuments/

Theres all the requirements you need to open an account with PTSB. It shows all the acceptable methods of address proof. Just to save you more annoyance when you go back in, make sure you have proof of your pps number as well.

I had the rest covered, the only thing I couldn't supply was a utility bill. The solicitors statement should have sufficed, according to the solicitor.

I don't think I'll be going back in. I'll just change my address with AIB and stay put. I have free banking there anyway. This is why the lady at PTSB was so frustrated. PTSB have lost a good customer.

Gosub

Anyone wrote: »

Its a legal requirement for opening a bank account, so you should have to. What makes you think you should be exempt from the law?

The legal requirement is to provide proof of address. The form of proof listed isn't exhaustive. My solicitor was adamant that her declaration should have been acceptable.

Where did I say that I thought I should be exempt from the law?

The_Morrigan

Gosub wrote: »

The legal requirement is to provide proof of address. The form of proof listed isn't exhaustive. My solicitor was adamant that her declaration should have been acceptable.

Where did I say that I thought I should be exempt from the law?

A letter from a solr is not sufficient, if that was the case anyone with a friend working in a law firm could get around it.
You must have something that is posted to the residence, otherwise it doesn't prove anything.

Anyone

Gosub wrote: »

I had the rest covered, the only thing I couldn't supply was a utility bill. The solicitors statement should have sufficed, according to the solicitor.

I don't think I'll be going back in. I'll just change my address with AIB and stay put. I have free banking there anyway. This is why the lady at PTSB was so frustrated. PTSB have lost a good customer.

You should tell your solicitor to brush up on the Criminal Justice Act 2010 then, because he doesnt know what he is talking about.

And yes, I can imagine the lady in PTSB was frustrated, its a pain in the arse trying to explain to people the legal requirements for opening accounts, more so when they disagree with them.

Anyone

Gosub wrote: »

The legal requirement is to provide proof of address. The form of proof listed isn't exhaustive. My solicitor was adamant that her declaration should have been acceptable.

Where did I say that I thought I should be exempt from the law?

Its clearly defined in the Act what is acceptable proof of address, your solicitor is wrong.

And you said you shouldn't have to provide valid proof of your address.

Gosub

Anyone wrote: »

You should tell your solicitor to brush up on the Criminal Justice Act 2010 then, because he doesnt know what he is talking about.

And yes, I can imagine the lady in PTSB was frustrated, its a pain in the arse trying to explain to people the legal requirements for opening accounts, more so when they disagree with them.

Before this thread goes any further into boards.ie attack mode. I generally agree with the current anti money laundering laws. I accept the legal requirement to provide proof of address, I accept that I am bound by the law and have great respect for the rule of law.

My point was that there should be some way of complying with the law for people in my situation. I was in Ireland for one week to close on the property and I wanted to open a bank account to deal with local bills. Surely it's not beyond the wit of mankind to have covered this situation in the legislation.

Gosub

Anyone wrote: »

And you said you shouldn't have to provide valid proof of your address.

No, I didn't.

Duke of Speed

dont bother your yourself dealing with tsb my son and a friend had accounts with them and was told that their not lending money at the moment my friend has a mortgage with them paid 6 months in advance cleared a loan for a van and wanted to buy a new one told the weren't lending even though he had an immaculate credit rating moved account to bank of ireland no problem tsb are nice to talk to no money though

The_Morrigan

Gosub wrote: »

Before this thread goes any further into boards.ie attack mode. I generally agree with the current anti money laundering laws. I accept the legal requirement to provide proof of address, I accept that I am bound by the law and have great respect for the rule of law.

My point was that there should be some way of complying with the law for people in my situation. I was in Ireland for one week to close on the property and I wanted to open a bank account to deal with local bills. Surely it's not beyond the wit of mankind to have covered this situation in the legislation.

Nope..if it was me I'd see that as suspicious and raise it to compliance.

Person walks into a branch, can't meet all the requirements of AML, looking to open an account, only there for a week to deal with a property transaction and wants to lodge a sum of money.

If you step back and look at it as an outsider, that is the type of behaviour bank staff are trained to spot.

Anyone

Gosub wrote: »

But this is of no use to me until I can change my address, for tax purposes, to my new house.

Reply edit.: I would have to change my banking setup, as my statements are paperless and accessed online only. But you're right, I could do this. Point is, I shouldn't have to.

I read that as saying you shouldn't have to provide acceptable proof.

Del2005

Gosub wrote: »

I had the rest covered, the only thing I couldn't supply was a utility bill. The solicitors statement should have sufficed, according to the solicitor.

Well your solicitors incorrect and if do a search for solicitor here you'll find she's not the only one who doesn't know the laws of our land.

Proof of address

You can provide evidence of your address with any of these documents:

A current utility bill (such as a gas, electricity or telephone or mobile phone bill)
A current car or home insurance policy that shows your address
A document issued by a government department that shows your address
A list of your tax credits
A current balancing statement or a C2 certificate from the Revenue Commissioners
A social insurance document (that shows your address)
A letter from your employer or licensed employment agency stating that you have recently arrived in Ireland and have started work but cannot yet provide evidence of your Irish address (you will have to provide evidence of your address at a later date)
In some cases a bank may ask you for your PPS Number – for example, if you are claiming tax relief on the interest paid on a mortgage loan.

Copies of all documentation used to establish the identity of the customer must be retained for five years after an account is closed. Also, copies of transactions must be kept for five years after the date of the transaction.

I had a similar issue when trying to get a US drivers licence, was only on assignment so had zero bills in my name. I'd gotten a letter posted to my address by the local relo rep to provide proof of address, it wasn't excepted but luckily I'd just got my social security number and that worked.

Gosub

Anyone wrote: »

I read that as saying you shouldn't have to provide acceptable proof.

Well if you read the sentence correctly I was saying I shouldn't have to change my bank practices to prove my address.

Anyone

Gosub wrote: »

Well if you read the sentence correctly I was saying I shouldn't have to change my bank practices to prove my address.

My mistake then.

Gosub

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Nope..if it was me I'd see that as suspicious and raise it to compliance.

Person walks into a branch, can't meet all the requirements of AML, looking to open an account, only there for a week to deal with a property transaction and wants to lodge a sum of money.

If you step back and look at it as an outsider, that is the type of behaviour bank staff are trained to spot.

Yes, I suppose It did raise a red flag. But, again, my point is: there should be a way to deal with this situation. I can't be the only returning citizen buying a house and wanting to open a local bank account.

It's not l was trying to hide my identity. I had a current Irish passport, a current Irish driving licence, a proof of PPS number, a proof that I already had bank accounts in the state, a proof that the small amount of cash that I wanted to deposit came from the banking system. All I was missing was a utility bill that I would happily have provided if I had one.

I'm back in Ireland at the end of the month. I'll transfer my business to the local AIB branch. Problem solved.

Again... all I was saying was that the legislation should be expected to cover the returning expat situation. I see that there is considerable support for what is, essentially, flawed law. Disappointing really.

The_Morrigan

Its not flawed, you just agreed that your transaction could raise a red flag...that means the law works.

Look the law is there to stop criminal activities in money laundering, its not there to suit every individual situation - you didn't meet all the requirements, no bank account. When you do all shall go swimmingly.

Gosub

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Its not flawed, you just agreed that your transaction could raise a red flag...that means the law works.

Look the law is there to stop criminal activities in money laundering, its not there to suit every individual situation - you didn't meet all the requirements, no bank account. When you do all shall go swimmingly.

I have no problem with the red flag popping up. But I feel there should be a procedure for dealing with a real-world situation that can't be all that uncommon. It's not that I was unwilling to provide a utility bill. I was unable to. To me, this makes all the difference.

IMO the law should have covered this. It's like a lot of lawmaking: lazy and incomplete. Just because it's passed into law doesn't mean it's perfect. Quite the opposite really.

Look at the new law coming out in March 2014 covering building regulations. The industry sees it is ill thought out and a potential nightmare. Should this not be pointed out either? A flawed or ill-considered law should be questioned and even opposed (property tax implementation anyone?). If we just blindly accept any and all law pushed on us... well, we deserve all we get.

Edit. The criminals are getting around the legislation as I pointed out earlier. It's the honest Irish citizen that's getting caught in the trap. That's just not right.

The_Morrigan

Gosub wrote: »

I have no problem with the red flag popping up. But I feel there should be a procedure for dealing with a real-world situation that can't be all that uncommon. It's not that I was unwilling to provide a utility bill. I was unable to. To me, this makes all the difference.

IMO the law should have covered this. It's like a lot of lawmaking: lazy and incomplete. Just because it's passed into law doesn't mean it's perfect. Quite the opposite really.

Look at the new law coming out in March 2014 covering building regulations. The industry sees it is ill thought out and a potential nightmare. Should this not be pointed out either? A flawed or ill-considered law should be questioned and even opposed (property tax implementation anyone?). If we just blindly accept any and all law pushed on us... well, we deserve all we get.

We tend not to be able to challenge much EU law as they have supremacy, unless it is unconstitutional.
This however, I do not feel is flawed. You could have changed your address with your AIB accounts and printed those statements... You have to think outside the box, it is your responsibility to meet the requirements, not the banks to waive them.

Gosub

The_Morrigan wrote: »

We tend not to be able to challenge much EU law as they have supremacy, unless it is unconstitutional.
This however, I do not feel is flawed. You could have changed your address with your AIB accounts and printed those statements... You have to think outside the box, it is your responsibility to meet the requirements, not the banks to waive them.

Without publishing my private banking situatione here, I can't adequately arge the situation. Let's just say it's not that simple.

I just wonder how we got to the situation that an ESB bill became a legally required document. I could have photoshopped the previous owner's bill, but that would have been wrong.

Duke of Speed

Gosub wrote: »

Without publishing my private banking situatione here, I can't adequately arge the situation. Let's just say it's not that simple.

I just wonder how we got to the situation that an ESB bill became a legally required document. I could have photoshopped the previous owner's bill, but that would have been wrong.

because even the esb data is used as away around the property tax to find households we have data protection but thats a farce your esb bill when you hand it over can be used to check your credit rating they have your account number semi state industry and all that were a cute hoor country

Duke of Speed

The_Morrigan wrote: »

We tend not to be able to challenge much EU law as they have supremacy, unless it is unconstitutional.
This however, I do not feel is flawed. You could have changed your address with your AIB accounts and printed those statements... You have to think outside the box, it is your responsibility to meet the requirements, not the banks to waive them.

we let them have supremacy we handed over our fishing waters and anything worth value to be good europeans last year if we had kept our waters it would be worth 200 billion if we were to build the industry like spain and other countries sell them the fish of course we voted for every treaty the asked us and paid the banks what do we expect sorry if i come across as angry but its the facts and we still wonder why

BuffyBot

I've deleted some posts.

In the mean time, keep on topic and keep civil.



As pointed out OP: the fact that the law doesn't bend you your set of circumstances, it unfortunate, but it is how it has to be. You've been given sufficient advice and I'm not sure there is much more to be said. I'll leave the thread open for the moment and review it later.

Gosub

BuffyBot wrote: »

I've deleted some posts.

In the mean time, keep on topic and keep civil.



As pointed out OP: the fact that the law doesn't bend you your set of circumstances, it unfortunate, but it is how it has to be. You've been given sufficient advice and I'm not sure there is much more to be said. I'll leave the thread open for the moment and review it later.

The fact that many laws don't bend to many Irish citizen's circumstances is indeed very unfortunate. But I don't accept, in general, that that's how it has to be. Laws are amended all of the time. This law doesn't hamper the criminals, only us ordinary, honest, law abiding citizens.

I brought this up as a discussion point, not looking for advice. This is a discussion board, no?

Anyway, your house, your rules. Lock her up if you see fit.