Pat Rabbitte to force sky/upc to give data to catch licence dodgers.

Qualitymark

I pay the TV licence and the dog licence; in the years when I didn't have a TV the inspector came to the door to check if I had one and went away when he found I didn't.
But I really don't like the bullying relationship the State has come to have with its citizens - the current government is like a gombeen shopkeeper constantly watching the customers - "Get your hand out of that sweet jar - I saw you - DON'T SAY YOU WEREN'T STEALING, I SAW YOU" - and so angering those who like to live calmly in balance with society that they're messing up the "common good", the sense of mutual acceptance and balance we all live within.

Fizzlesque

Czarcasm wrote: »

You DO have a choice - get rid of the TV if you don't want to pay the licence for owning one!

That's exactly what I did - three years ago. I even went to the trouble of buying a screen/monitor and DVD player to hook up to the screen/monitor so I can watch DVDs without needing a television set to do so, but now I keep hearing about this poxy internet tax replacing the license fee. This will be a step too far for me, if it happens. I can feel my blood beginning to boil just typing this short post about it....:mad:

Drakares

This won't happen. EU privacy laws shat all over Pat Rabbittes plan.

Sofiztikated

Why don't they just call it a "Living in Ireland Licence" and be done with it.

Son Of A Vidic

The Backwards Man wrote: »

7 out of 8 subcribers who pay their taxes welcome this move.

You can exclude me from your bullshít proclamation.

Anyway, proof or GTFO!

bbam

So isn't the TV licence being change to a multi media type licence. So those saying I don't watch TV, I don't have a TV or I watch on the laptop, will have no argument. It's just going to be levied on every household on the notion that you see/hear some form of broadcast during the year.

Do the ever check back on your licence history? Or can they ?
We've not ever had one. So that's 20 years saved. Even if I start now, I've had a good free run.

This push on collection is just like the water charges or the other new charges. Joe Public lapped it up when this government were getting into power saying they wouldn't touch PAYE rates, yet it was obvious the revenue stream into state coffers needed to increase, where the hell did people think they were going to get the extra money from.

Damien360

pajopearl wrote: »

Are they not public sector employees? Why are they not receiving public sector rates of pay (as in average industrial wage)???

They are semi state . I would never expect them to get public sector wages but there should be a simple formula to calculate the advertising revenue they generate directly from their show minus production costs and RTE profit used for new programming and then and only then, they would get pay from the balance.

That would instantly kill off Marian finnucanes wages as she cannot even generate her income from the advertising on her very short show on the weekend.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

bbam wrote: »

Do the ever check back on your licence history? Or can they ?
We've not ever had one. So that's 20 years saved. Even if I start now, I've had a good free run.

You'll be nabbed eventually and you won't be so smug when a 3k+ bill lands on your doorstep.

Phoebas

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

You'll be nabbed eventually and you won't be so smug when a 3k+ bill lands on your doorstep.

They can't backdate the TV licence as its associated with TV ownership. When the new broadcasting charge comes in it'll be a different story, which I think was the point bbam was making.

Fizzlesque

bbam wrote: »

So isn't the TV licence being change to a multi media type licence. So those saying I don't watch TV, I don't have a TV or I watch on the laptop, will have no argument.

That's exactly when my argument will start - as I mentioned a few posts above, I deliberately got rid of my TV and bought a monitor and DVD because I couldn't afford the licence and rarely watched television. Now I'm supposed to find money I don't have to pay for something I made a conscious decision to live without regardless?

I'm half thinking I should stand outside my house and charge people for reading my thoughts, and when they tell me they didn't read my thoughts and aren't interested in reading my thoughts I'll tell them it's a new tax they have to pay simply because my thoughts exist, regardless of whether they have any interest in or use for them. Maybe I'll eventually expand and charge everyone, not just people who walk past me as I stand outside my house, because one day they're sure to use a word or two I've used in my thoughts so why should they get to use them for free - thought-stealers must be taxed!!

Max Power1

120_Minutes wrote: »

agreed. I'm against paying it, but if caught i'll pay up. but as someone who doesnt answer their door to unannounced knocks, and you cant tell if i have a tv or not by looking in my window, they'll have to try and catch me.

Yup same here, most logical approach tbh. Anyway once you pay them the licen$e fee once, they have your details. Longer you can hold off, the better.

I move house once every 18-30 months on average (renting in dublin) so im not in a place long enough to be regularly surveyed anyway. (As 10 years living in my own gaff, never caught for no licen$e yet, would show!)

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

Phoebas wrote: »

They can't backdate the TV licence as its associated with TV ownership. When the new broadcasting charge comes in it'll be a different story, which I think was the point bbam was making.

Well that's a pity. Anyone that deliberately refuses to pay their taxes is a thief IMO and the smugness of those that openly boast about it is galling.

120_Minutes

couldnt find a link anywhere but it was on the front page of yesterdays star. so it's probably a non story

UCDVet

Inspector guy came by 2-3 weeks ago. It was hilarious.

First, he tells me he is from the post office. Then he asks me for my name and how long I've lived there.

I explain that I filed a change of address with the post office when I moved....and that I'm receiving my mail without any issue. If he's really with the post office, surely, he'd have access to that information.

Then he tells me he's a TV license inspector....

I've got something playing in my living room, I think it was iRobot. 42" projection screen with 5.1 channel surround sound playing. It was like 7pm when they decided to come around knocking on the door. It's loud enough that he can hear it.

Still, I tell him, 'TV License? I don't need one. No TV.'

And he stands there looking at me like I'm on crack. You'd think people working in the business of inspecting TVs would understand what the law actually says and understand that hearing a movie is not the same as having a device that requires a license....but apparently not.

I keep getting letters and another inspector came back again. I'm starting to feel like I'm being blackmailed....'pay the tax or we'll keep harassing you at dinner time and sending your scary letters!'

Engine No.9

Phoenix wrote: »

Link??????anyone??/

OP already stated no link but he saw it on the front of the Star.

120_Minutes

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

Well that's a pity. Anyone that deliberately refuses to pay their taxes is a thief IMO and the smugness of those that openly boast about it is galling.

If i pay my income tax, i get something in return, plus social welfare if i ever need it.

i never avail of anything RTE/TV3/TG4 put out, and i do mean that. I do not watch any home produced entertainment as any i've seen has been sub par and parochial.

so:

• I dont watch Irish TV
• I dont listen to RTE radio at home (a bit of today fm in the car)
• I dont go to see the RTE concert orchestra

Then what am i getting for my 160 quid? and before you say "the tv licence is for ownership of a tv" thats what i disagree with.

The current system is wrong, and the new proposed blanket tax is wrong.

I do not want to fund something i get no benefit from, I want to opt out, wheres that option?

Really, think about the new proposal for a second. paddy mcginty, living in the back arse of nowhere, with no tv, no saorview, so sky, no upc, no broadband, no computer, no smartphone will have to pay at least 160 quid a year (because we all know it wont be cheaper than the current system) because he might stumble across a broadcast on some medium sometime in the future? does that sound fair to you?

They say the Lotto is a tax on the poor, I disagree. at least you can opt out of doing the lotto. they wont give the people a choice out of fear.

Revamp the system, if you want state broadcasting you pay, either through revenue from the providers such as sky/upc or saorview sales, and if you dont, you opt out.

TL;DR: If i want RTE i'll pay for it, I dont so i wont.

UCDVet

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

Well that's a pity. Anyone that deliberately refuses to pay their taxes is a thief IMO and the smugness of those that openly boast about it is galling.

Have we lost all concept of right and wrong? If a tax or law is unjust, don't we as reasonable people have an obligation to oppose it?

I really and truly believe that the TV tax is *wrong*. It's exactly like me creating a website that is publicly available that you *COULD* access with a computer, then going door to door 'inspecting' for computers capable of visiting my site and charging them 100 euro.

Because they *MIGHT* have visited my site. The same site that I make publicly available.

There are lots of reasons why someone might have a TV. I used to have one, and I didn't have cable or an antenna. I specifically got rid of it because of the tax. How is that right or fair; that I can't purchase the device that is best suited to being connected to my PS3 because, if I do, I'm forced to support rich people who are rich ONLY because we're forced to pay their wages? Whatever it is that the TV tax supports - I don't watch it. I don't want to support it. I've got my own bills to pay.

120_Minutes

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And this is why An Post have the license collection gig. They have a pretty good database of names and addresses.

Yet they're unable to put my name on the letter that comes out saying they have no record of a licence at my address (note: they dont know if i have a TV or not) because they dont know i live there.

thats an excellent database, or the licencing dept of an post dont have access to said database.

daherlihy

Isn't the TV license supposed to be relabelled eventually as a broadcasting license or something? In other words, if you have the Internet but no TV, you still pay as its likely you're streaming?

120_Minutes

daherlihy wrote: »

Isn't the TV license supposed to be relabelled eventually as a broadcasting license or something? In other words, if you have the Internet but no TV, you still pay as its likely you're streaming?

thats almost the plan. you dont need to have anything capable of recieving a broadcast, you just pay anyway. like a cop giving you a speeding fine because you could break the speed limit at some point in the future.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

120_Minutes wrote: »

If i pay my income tax, i get something in return, plus social welfare if i ever need it.

i never avail of anything RTE/TV3/TG4 put out, and i do mean that. I do not watch any home produced entertainment as any i've seen has been sub par and parochial.

so:

• I dont watch Irish TV
• I dont listen to RTE radio at home (a bit of today fm in the car)
• I dont go to see the RTE concert orchestra

Then what am i getting for my 160 quid? and before you say "the tv licence is for ownership of a tv" thats what i disagree with.

The current system is wrong, and the new proposed blanket tax is wrong.

I do not want to fund something i get no benefit from, I want to opt out, wheres that option?

Really, think about the new proposal for a second. paddy mcginty, living in the back arse of nowhere, with no tv, no saorview, so sky, no upc, no broadband, no computer, no smartphone will have to pay at least 160 quid a year (because we all know it wont be cheaper than the current system) because he might stumble across a broadcast on some medium sometime in the future? does that sound fair to you?

They say the Lotto is a tax on the poor, I disagree. at least you can opt out of doing the lotto. they wont give the people a choice out of fear.

Revamp the system, if you want state broadcasting you pay, either through revenue from the providers such as sky/upc or saorview sales, and if you dont, you opt out.

TL;DR: If i want RTE i'll pay for it, I dont so i wont.

All the waffle in the world doesn't alter the fact that its the law to pay your TV licence and you refuse to do so.

Therefore you sir, are IMO a thief.

120_Minutes

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

All the waffle in the world doesn't alter the fact that its the law to pay your TV licence and you refuse to do so.

Therefore you sir, are IMO a thief.

let he who is without sin, yadda yadda...

Big Bottom

People dodging what they are due to pay has the country in the state it's in. If you don't pay you deserve a large fine, whinging about people finding out you're a cheat doesn't wash with me

Sin City

I dont know why they want to call it a tv or any other licence for that matter
Just say it for what it is. Your country is f****d tax. We need your money tax.
I dont care what you have or have not got , I want your money tax, or just the Pat Kenney tax

120_Minutes

Big Bottom wrote: »

People dodging what they are due to pay has the country in the state it's in. If you don't pay you deserve a large fine, whinging about people finding out you're a cheat doesn't wash with me

people taking what has been forced on them is what has this country in the state it's in.

I'm sure you think every law and tax is fair and just then?

Ando's Saggy Bottom

UCDVet wrote: »

Have we lost all concept of right and wrong? If a tax or law is unjust, don't we as reasonable people have an obligation to oppose it?

I really and truly believe that the TV tax is *wrong*. It's exactly like me creating a website that is publicly available that you *COULD* access with a computer, then going door to door 'inspecting' for computers capable of visiting my site and charging them 100 euro.

Because they *MIGHT* have visited my site. The same site that I make publicly available.

There are lots of reasons why someone might have a TV. I used to have one, and I didn't have cable or an antenna. I specifically got rid of it because of the tax. How is that right or fair; that I can't purchase the device that is best suited to being connected to my PS3 because, if I do, I'm forced to support rich people who are rich ONLY because we're forced to pay their wages? Whatever it is that the TV tax supports - I don't watch it. I don't want to support it. I've got my own bills to pay.

You can be opposed to a tax or licence fee all you like. But if you refuse to pay it you are breaking the law. All the wriggling in the world won't change that. If you have a TV, get a licence. Simple.

120_Minutes

Sin City wrote: »

I dont know why they want to call it a tv or any other licence for that matter
Just say it for what it is. Your country is f****d tax. We need your money tax.
I dont care what you have or have not got , I want your money tax, or just the Pat Kenney tax

[mayor quimby] i..eh.err.eh.. we've come up with a new er...ah.. leaving town tax[/mayor quimby]

Fizzlesque

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

If you have a TV, get a licence. Simple.

And if you don't have a TV?

120_Minutes

Fizzlesque wrote: »

And if you don't have a TV?

then you're a nice person until the new charge is brought in, then you're an evil cheat again, akin to a rapist.

UCDVet

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

You can be opposed to a tax or licence fee all you like. But if you refuse to pay it you are breaking the law. All the wriggling in the world won't change that. If you have a TV, get a licence. Simple.

I don't have a TV.
I don't need a licence.

I just can't get the letters or visits to stop.

HurtLocker

120_Minutes wrote: »

[mayor quimby] i..eh.err.eh.. we've come up with a new er...ah.. leaving town tax[/mayor quimby]

I'm pretty sure they put an airline tax on flights to cash in on people leaving and emigrating.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

Fizzlesque wrote: »

And if you don't have a TV?

The problem here is people who openly have a TV but still won't pay up.

If you are one of the tiny minority who don't have one at all nd don't use other devices to steam tv then far enough.

But they would be a tiny %. The rest are just wriggling to justify breaking the law.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

120_Minutes wrote: »

then you're a nice person until the new charge is brought in, then you're an evil cheat again, akin to a rapist.

No. Not a rapist.

Just a thief.

120_Minutes

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

The problem here is people who openly have a TV but still won't pay up.

If you are one of the tiny minority who don't have one at all nd don't use other devices to steam tv then far enough.

But they would be a tiny %. The rest are just wriggling to justify breaking the law.

I refuse to obey an unjust law. If i were a homeowner i would also refuse to pay the household charge.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

UCDVet wrote: »

I don't have a TV.
I don't need a licence.

I just can't get the letters or visits to stop.

That's not a problem with the licence fee itself.

That's a problem with those administering it.

UCDVet

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

The problem here is people who openly have a TV but still won't pay up.

If you are one of the tiny minority who don't have one at all nd don't use other devices to steam tv then far enough.

But they would be a tiny %. The rest are just wriggling to justify breaking the law.

Using other devices to stream media doesn't require a license. Or at least it didn't according to the last nasty letter I got implying I needed to buy one.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

120_Minutes wrote: »

I refuse to obey an unjust law. If i were a homeowner i would also refuse to pay the household charge.

Then you, as I keep saying are breaking the law and a thief.

The rest if what are say is merely your pathetic attempts to justify your law breaking to yourself and basically waffle.

flutered

Fizzlesque wrote: »

And if you don't have a TV

well the fat phat bunny does not give a schit, funnily enough if one has no tv, broadband, pc, and lives without any radio, etc, etc he is expected to pay it, why becase a certain portion of society has to be kept in the lifestyles that they are acustomed to.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

UCDVet wrote: »

Using other devices to stream media doesn't require a license. Or at least it didn't according to the last nasty letter I got implying I needed to buy one.

If it doesn't now it soon will be. Will you pay the new charge for such devices?

bennyl10

120_Minutes wrote: »

I refuse to obey an unjust law. If i were a homeowner i would also refuse to pay the household charge.

You can refuse all you want. You are still, no matter what you spin it, breaking the law since you own a TV.

This is like me saying im a murderer, but i like to murder and the law is wrong and unjust towards to me so i wont obey, ill just murder away and tell that to the judge.

You dont pay yet watch tv?. You are no better than a commom thief.

Optimalprimerib

I pay mine because I am an upstanding citizen and anyone who does not is a cheapskate and I could not bear to be in the same room as them

UCDVet

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

That's not a problem with the licence fee itself.

That's a problem with those administering it.

One in the same....

How they administer is it is the natural progression of how the law is written. It's not an opt-in system, it's an opt-out system. *I* have to convince them that I shouldn't have to pay them. Everyone wants to get paid. They have no motivation to make it easy to opt-out. Over time, it will get harder and harder to opt-out.

And that's exactly what they are trying to do now. It's gone from a tax on a luxury item - that actually seems reasonable....and if they have their way, it'll be blanket tax everyone is forced to play regardless of whether or not they even *COULD* view the content - nevermind if they actual would or want to.

And once everyone is forced to pay....it'll be a steady stream of increases.

The fee is already far beyond what the market would support. But it's not a free-market and the people who get screwed are the consumers. I can get a significantly better ROI on my 160 euro spending it elsewhere.

Max Power1

bennyl10 wrote: »

You can refuse all you want. You are still, no matter what you spin it, breaking the law since you own a TV.

This is like me saying im a murderer, but i like to murder and the law is wrong and unjust towards to me so i wont obey, ill just murder away and tell that to the judge.

You dont pay yet watch tv?. You are no better than a commom thief.

No, no that comparison doesnt work Im afraid

Murdering is immoral. There is nothing immoral about not paying an unjust tax. There are many reasons that the tv license is an unjust tax. The bloated salaries enjoyed by RTE staff for one. But mainly because the tax is not related to ability to pay. IE it is a flat rate.


Re your statement

This is like me saying im a murderer, but i like to murder and the law is wrong and unjust towards to me so i wont obey"

That is nothing to do with the issue at hand. It is akin to the old "clutching at straws" scenario.

You dont pay yet watch tv?. You are no better than a commom thief.

Rather a common thief than a commom one

120_Minutes

bennyl10 wrote: »

You can refuse all you want. You are still, no matter what you spin it, breaking the law since you own a TV.

This is like me saying im a murderer, but i like to murder and the law is wrong and unjust towards to me so i wont obey, ill just murder away and tell that to the judge.

You dont pay yet watch tv?. You are no better than a commom thief.

No it's not like that. my actions do not result in the death of another. Cop the **** on.

the laws against murder are just. the tv licence law is not.

I fully admit i am a lawbreaker. but i want the law changed to reflect modern society, not a blanket tax on all citizens,

how many times to i have to say it?

IF I WANTED IRISH BROADCASTING I'D HAPPILY PAY FOR IT. I DON'T SO I WON'T

UCDVet

bennyl10 wrote: »

You can refuse all you want. You are still, no matter what you spin it, breaking the law since you own a TV.

This is like me saying im a murderer, but i like to murder and the law is wrong and unjust towards to me so i wont obey, ill just murder away and tell that to the judge.

You dont pay yet watch tv?. You are no better than a commom thief.

That's a blurry line.

The tax should be on watching content produced or secured as a result of the tax. Watching RTE and not paying the tax; THAT would be closer to theft. Not actually 'theft' but more like 'theft of service' - like sneaking into a non-full theater.

The thing is - they didn't setup a good way to track who watches what content. So in order to collect more money, more easily - they made the law include 'all TVs'.

So if you want to watch a DVD, that you own.....or if you want to play a video game console...or even use as a computer monitor (which I've done before and it's great for certain applications) - all of which have NOTHING TO DO with the TV tax - they've made it so you have to pay.

If I buy a TV (without a license) and never use it to watch anything ever made or broadcast in Ireland - I'm absolutely not a thief. I've stolen nothing. I've broken a law, yes. But I've broken a poorly written, fundamentally unfair, law.....but that's quite a bit better than stealing something from someone.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

In a society where its almost unheard of not to have a tv its perfectly reasonable for someone to have to convince the powers that be you have no tv.

If you feel harassed you should take it up with the appropriate authorities.

Your experience doesn't alter in any way the fact that not paying this fee if have a tv is wrong; however.

Sofiztikated

All those people that are claiming that not paying the TV licence makes you a thief, how exactly does that work?

thief (θiːf)

— n , pl thieves
1. a person who steals something from another
2. criminal law a person who commits theft

If I give you a bag of crisps, when you don't want a bag of crisps, and then tell you that you must pay me €10 for the crisps, even though you really, REALLY don't want them, does that make you a thief?

What if there was suddenly a law saying that everyone in Ireland must pay Motor Tax, whether you own a car or not, is that fair or just? Would you dispute it then?

Ando's Saggy Bottom

UCDVet wrote: »

That's a blurry line.

The tax should be on watching content produced or secured as a result of the tax. Watching RTE and not paying the tax; THAT would be closer to theft. Not actually 'theft' but more like 'theft of service' - like sneaking into a non-full theater.

The thing is - they didn't setup a good way to track who watches what content. So in order to collect more money, more easily - they made the law include 'all TVs'.

So if you want to watch a DVD, that you own.....or if you want to play a video game console...or even use as a computer monitor (which I've done before and it's great for certain applications) - all of which have NOTHING TO DO with the TV tax - they've made it so you have to pay.

If I buy a TV (without a license) and never use it to watch anything ever made or broadcast in Ireland - I'm absolutely not a thief. I've stolen nothing. I've broken a law, yes. But I've broken a poorly written, fundamentally unfair, law.....but that's quite a bit better than stealing something from someone.

You would be a thief because you would have chosen not to pay 160 quid that the rest of us gave done in keeping either the law!

Phoebas

UCDVet wrote: »

Have we lost all concept of right and wrong? If a tax or law is unjust, don't we as reasonable people have an obligation to oppose it?

We do.
But don't be fooled into thinking that evading the TV licence is some kind of political protest. It isn't. It is simple evasion of a charge that is easy to evade.

There is quite a high level of TV licence evasion, but I haven't seen any political campaign to have it scrapped or reformed.