Pat Rabbitte to force sky/upc to give data to catch licence dodgers.

bennyl10

Sofiztikated wrote: »

What if there was suddenly a law saying that everyone in Ireland must pay Motor Tax, whether you own a car or not, is that fair or just? Would you dispute it then?

If you dont own a tv you dont need to pay, its those who do own a tv & refuse.

Sofiztikated

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

You would be a thief because you would have chosen not to pay 160 quid that the rest of us gave done in keeping either the law!

It's not theft.

It's tax evasion. There IS a difference.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

Sofiztikated wrote: »

All those people that are claiming that not paying the TV licence makes you a thief, how exactly does that work?



If I give you a bag of crisps, when you don't want a bag of crisps, and then tell you that you must pay me €10 for the crisps, even though you really, REALLY don't want them, does that make you a thief?

What if there was suddenly a law saying that everyone in Ireland must pay Motor Tax, whether you own a car or not, is that fair or just? Would you dispute it then?

If you had a car and came onto boards boasting about nother having it taxed like several have done with their TVs, then yes, you'd be a thief.

HurtLocker

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

All the waffle in the world doesn't alter the fact that its the law to pay your TV licence and you refuse to do so.

Therefore you sir, are IMO a thief.

A thief of what exactly? It's not like RTE are smart with cash they are given. A thief of your subsidised entertainment? A thief of funds from a semi state which lacks any transparency. Where the majority of the people of this country believe they are overpaid. Yet nothing happens. The RTE news reported the wages of its top paid yet ignores the reaction and gives zero explanation of which hole they pull wage figures from.

A semi state body which runs on my taxes yet still endorses catholicism on a daily bases? Spend licence money to record mass!

Who to up the hours worked by the "stars" just put more hosts on each show? Why the hell does Prime Time have 3 hosts. Why does RTE news have so many useless and unnecessary correspondents and news reader. Why does it need multiple people to read the weather? Why can't Brian Dobson read the sports news and weather. When's the last time the US correspondent told us something interesting to make him worth his salt.

One must not forget they are loss making. And every €1 they lose is taken from us.

They waste even more money commissioning a report on how bloody great they are, "for every €1 RTE gets in licence money", which turned out to be paid for by RTE to make them look as good as possible. Wasting our money on a survey on how good they are with money. They are loss making yet they still waste our money.

Why can't we all keep our €160 a year and spend it in the economy. Why can't the Irish people be asked, "Do you wish to continue subsidising RTE with an upward only licence starting at €160, reviewed every year to leave the fee as is or squeeze a couple more euros if possible, or do you want RTE to be sold off?" We're supposed to be a democracy yet we the people are never asked anything.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

Sofiztikated wrote: »

It's not theft.

It's tax evasion. There IS a difference.

IMO tax evasion IS theft.

Sofiztikated

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

If you had a car and came onto boards boasting about nother having it taxed like several have done with their TVs, then yes, you'd be a thief.

No, you wouldn't be a thief.

Fúck sake, I'll repeat myself one more time. Tax evasion, not theft.

120_Minutes

UCDVet wrote: »

If I buy a TV (without a license) and never use it to watch anything ever made or broadcast in Ireland - I'm absolutely not a thief.

This

Sofiztikated wrote: »

What if there was suddenly a law saying that everyone in Ireland must pay Motor Tax, whether you own a car or not, is that fair or just? Would you dispute it then?

and this.

If everyone who had sky who didnt want rte lobbied to have it removed from their subscription, and had no saorview approved devices, then it is impossible for them to receive RTE then : exempt from tv tax

if you have sky with rte, or saorview, you pay.

very workable, fair, and very possible but no....they're too scared that too many would opt out from what they already know is an ailing and sub par service.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

HurtLocker wrote: »

A thief of what exactly? It's not like RTE are smart with cash they are given. A thief of your subsidised entertainment? A thief of funds from a semi state which lacks any transparency. Where the majority of the people of this country believe they are overpaid. Yet nothing happens. The RTE news reported the wages of its top paid yet ignores the reaction and gives zero explanation of which hole they pull wage figures from.

A semi state body which runs on my taxes yet still endorses catholicism on a daily bases? Spend licence money to record mass!

Who to up the hours worked by the "stars" just put more hosts on each show? Why the hell does Prime Time have 3 hosts. Why does RTE news have so many useless and unnecessary correspondents and news reader. Why does it need multiple people to read the weather? Why can Brian Dobson read the sports news and weather. When's the last time the US correspondent told us something interesting to make him worth his salt.

One must not forget they are loss making. And every €1 they lose is taken from us.

They waste even more money commissioning a report on how bloody great they are, "for every €1 RTE gets in licence money", which turned out to be paid for by RTE to make them look as good as possible. Wasting our money on a survey on how good they are with money. They are loss making yet they still waste our money.

Why can't we all keep our €160 a year and spend it in the economy. Why can't the Irish people be asked, "Do you wish to continue subsidising RTE with an upward only licence starting at €160, a reviewed every year to leave the fee as is or squeeze a couple more euros if possible, or do you want RTE to be sold off?" We're supposed to be a democracy yet we the people are never asked anything.

You could make the same arguments about other types of tax - paying politicians salaries etc etc.

Bottom line people very quickly become very good at finding moralistic reasons to be opposed to taxes. But behind it all its a small fee theyre legally obliged to pay but won't. They are breaking the law by not doing so. The rest is just bluster to justify not bothering to do so.

UCDVet

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

In a society where its almost unheard of not to have a tv its perfectly reasonable for someone to have to convince the powers that be you have no tv.

If you feel harassed you should take it up with the appropriate authorities.

Your experience doesn't alter in any way the fact that not paying this fee if have a tv is wrong; however.

Ahhh yes, the 'ol Guilty Until Proven Innocent thing?

You can't prove a negative.

I can't possibly prove I don't have a TV. I can let someone search my place and that would prove that some guy didn't find a TV in my place, on that particular night. Was it outside? In my car (I don't have a car, but if I did)? Hiding it in my rubbish bin?

So - I'm guilty until proven innocent, in a situation where I can't possibly prove I'm innocent?

Ando's Saggy Bottom

Sofiztikated wrote: »

No, you wouldn't be a thief.

Fúck sake, I'll repeat myself one more time. Tax evasion, not theft.

And sure Ill repeat this too.

IMO tax evasion is theft.

Sofiztikated

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

IMO tax evasion IS theft.

As always, you are entitled to your opinion.

Doesn't mean that your opinion is correct.

I'll go back to my crisp metaphor.

I give you crisps, and you don't want crisps, then I demand €10 for said crisps, is that fair?

Ando's Saggy Bottom

UCDVet wrote: »

Ahhh yes, the 'ol Guilty Until Proven Innocent thing?

You can't prove a negative.

I can't possibly prove I don't have a TV. I can let someone search my place and that would prove that some guy didn't find a TV in my place, on that particular night. Was it outside? In my car (I don't have a car, but if I did)? Hiding it in my rubbish bin?

So - I'm guilty until proven innocent, in a situation where I can't possibly prove I'm innocent?

Take it up with the authorities. You disagree with the fee anyway so youre never going to convince me this isn't all bluster.

UCDVet

Sofiztikated wrote: »

As always, you are entitled to your opinion.

Doesn't mean that your opinion is correct.

I'll go back to my crisp metaphor.

I give you crisps, and you don't want crisps, then I demand €10 for said crisps, is that fair?

I'm going to print up a newspaper today and delivery it tonight.

Then tomorrow I'm going to go around demanding 4 euro for the paper I delivered the day before!

I'll be rich in no time

Max Power1

Sofiztikated wrote: »

As always, you are entitled to your opinion.

Doesn't mean that your opinion is correct.

I'll go back to my crisp metaphor.

I give you crisps, and you don't want crisps, then I demand €10 for said crisps, is that fair?

Exactly

Think there are a lot of hungover people here. That is the only reason that I can see someone arguing for an unjust tax tbh. Someone operating on full mental capacity should not be holding such an illogical P.O.V.

Phoebas

Sofiztikated wrote: »

No, you wouldn't be a thief.

Fúck sake, I'll repeat myself one more time. Tax evasion, not theft.

I suppose if you make a distinction between taking someone else's property and withholding someone else's property.
But you'd be being very pedantic.

120_Minutes

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I give you crisps, and you don't want crisps, then I demand €10 for said crisps, is that fair?

and i'll add, repeating my earlier post re: new broadcasting charge, if a garda gives you an 80 euro speeding fine because you might speed next week, is that fair?

Ando's Saggy Bottom

Sofiztikated wrote: »

As always, you are entitled to your opinion.

Doesn't mean that your opinion is correct.

I'll go back to my crisp metaphor.

I give you crisps, and you don't want crisps, then I demand €10 for said crisps, is that fair?

Your metaphor is sh*t.

Own a telly. Pay the fee. That's it.

I have no crisp based analogy for this because I don't need to make one because I have no need to justify breaking the law.

120_Minutes

"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."

five pages in and i just Jefferson'd this thread.

Phoebas

120_Minutes wrote: »

and i'll add, repeating my earlier post re: new broadcasting charge, if a garda gives you an 80 euro speeding fine because you might speed next week, is that fair?

When you're having to introduce daft analogies for something that is very well understood, you're loosing.

WhatNowForUs?

emo72 wrote: »

Haven't paid for the last 2 years. As for getting pulled up in front of a judge. So what. They can fine me 10000 for all I care. Non payment, garda will call to you tell you sorry but you have to go in. Turn up at the prison, get processed and out by lunchtime. Not so scary is it?

Until you have to emigrate to the states because the government have ****ed up the country.

Phoebas

120_Minutes wrote: »

"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."

five pages in and i just Jefferson'd this thread.

Apart from simply keeping the €160, what other political actions are you taking to oppose this 'unjust' law?

120_Minutes

Phoebas wrote: »

When you're having to introduce daft analogies for something that is very well understood, you're loosing.

daft analogy for a daft proposition, in my opinion.

Fizzlesque

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

The problem here is people who openly have a TV but still won't pay up.

If you are one of the tiny minority who don't have one at all nd don't use other devices to steam tv then far enough.

But they would be a tiny %. The rest are just wriggling to justify breaking the law.

I am one of that minority - but there's talk of making me pay regardless.

I used to pay my TV licence, until my working hours were considerably reduced and I had to look at where I could make savings. I got rid of my TV subscription with NTL because I couldn't afford it and I rarely watched TV anyway, so it was the first thing to go. Then, when the licence was due for renewal, I removed the television set from my premises and bought a monitor that could connect to my DVD player instead of renewing the licence for something I didn't use. So far, so good.

Then, I start hearing about an internet tax because I might, just might, one day deide to stream some rubbish from RTE using my really slow broadband, which, I already pay for, to watch on a grainy screen that freezes every so often.

So, yes, I am part of that tiny % and I'll be seriously p!ssed off if I have to start paying a broadcasting tax for TV and radio stations I have no wish to see or hear.

Sofiztikated

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

Your metaphor is sh*t.

Own a telly. Pay the fee. That's it.

I have no crisp based analogy for this because I don't need to make one because I have no need to justify breaking the law.

I never once said that I didn't have a TV licence.

I never once said that I own a television.

If the above statements are true or not, I'm still expected to pay the Broadcasting Charge, because...well, because.

I also made an analogy of Motor Tax being introduced for every person in Ireland, whether they had a car or not. Would you agree with that? Because if they did, it would be law. And then you'd be a thief.

pistolpetes11

Will they back date the payments for years that were not paid ?

Would seem like the logical thing to do

120_Minutes

Phoebas wrote: »

Apart from simply keeping the €160, what other political actions are you taking to oppose this 'unjust' law?

well, up to now i've sat on my arse as i've never been overtly political. but i'll be looking at ways to make my feelings known to my elected officials about this and other issues that i have become passionate about.

what those ways are, i dont know yet.

Capt'n Midnight

120_Minutes wrote: »

Yet they're unable to put my name on the letter that comes out saying they have no record of a licence at my address (note: they dont know if i have a TV or not) because they dont know i live there.

thats an excellent database, or the licencing dept of an post dont have access to said database.

or they are incompetent

what % of households don't have a license ?
this isn't rocket science if number 1,2,4,5 on a street have a license then it's probably worth checking up on number 3

Capt'n Midnight

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Why don't they just call it a "Living in Ireland Licence" and be done with it.

we have loads of these

VRT is the classic one
all of the stealth taxes for things that used to be free , bins, tolls, water

Sofiztikated

Phoebas wrote: »

When you're having to introduce daft analogies for something that is very well understood, you're loosing.

I don't know about anybody else, but I use analogies to explain simple concepts to the slow witted, that JUST don't get it.

WhatNowForUs?

emo72 wrote: »

Plus if you buy a TV and then move! Could the system possibly cope with an anolomy like that.

Indeed or buy it aa a present for sonebody.

Freddy Smelly

privatise all publically owned irish broadcasters. no need for broadcast tax then.

if people want rte then they can pay a sub for it. if they dont want it then they dont have to pay for it.

enigmatical

if you have to pay it anyway would it not be easier to just charge an extra €13.33 in Sky and UPC Television bills every month.

Then they wouldn't have to pay An Post to collect it at huge expense?

Then you could leave an Post to collect for people who don't have pay TV only.

Phoebas

120_Minutes wrote: »

well, up to now i've sat on my arse as i've never been overtly political. but i'll be looking at ways to make my feelings known to my elected officials about this and other issues that i have become passionate about.

what those ways are, i dont know yet.

So your campaign started off with breaking the law (which incidentally benefits you personally to the tune of €160 p/a) and you've done nothing else about this 'unjust' law so far.

Your quoting Jefferson suddenly seems hollow.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

pistolpetes11 wrote: »

Will they back date the payments for years that were not paid ?

Would seem like the logical thing to do

I wish they would. There must be thousands of quid owed by each Johnny-Cant-Be-Bothered over the decades.

Fr_Dougal

120_Minutes wrote: »

No it's not like that. my actions do not result in the death of another. Cop the **** on.

the laws against murder are just. the tv licence law is not.

I fully admit i am a lawbreaker. but i want the law changed to reflect modern society, not a blanket tax on all citizens,

how many times to i have to say it?

IF I WANTED IRISH BROADCASTING I'D HAPPILY PAY FOR IT. I DON'T SO I WON'T

Well for someone that doesn't want Irish broadcasting you seem to be availing of the service:

120_Minutes wrote: »

Was hoping the rapping Dev would be included. was not disappointed. recognised a few people in the background at one point. The show was ahead of its time really.

HurtLocker

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

You could make the same arguments about other types of tax - paying politicians salaries etc etc.

Bottom line people very quickly become very good at finding moralistic reasons to be opposed to taxes. But behind it all its a small fee theyre legally obliged to pay but won't. They are breaking the law by not doing so. The rest is just bluster to justify not bothering to do so.

Except I believe the people should get a say on this semi state. Why bring politicians up. RTE wastes money. Why can't the people be asked do the wish this to continue out of their pocket? Start another thread on politicians if you wish.

Sofiztikated

Phoebas wrote: »

So your campaign started off with breaking the law (which incidentally benefits you personally to the tune of €160 p/a) and you've done nothing else about this 'unjust' law so far.

Your quoting Jefferson suddenly seems hollow.

Do I need to break the Jefferson quote down into fun size Mars* pieces?

He is disobeying the law. He's not paying the tax.

*I'm fecking starving, FWIW

Phoebas

HurtLocker wrote: »

Except I believe the people should get a say on this semi state. Why bring politicians up. RTE wastes money. Why can't the people be asked do the wish this to continue out of their pocket?

We do have a political mechanism for the people to have their say on this, but people don't raise it as an important issue with their politicians.
Nor are there any active civil society campaigns to scrap the licence fee.

People who are evading their licence fee without even getting involved in a political campaign are simply opportunistic evaders. Nothing more.

WhatNowForUs?

Big Bottom wrote: »

People dodging what they are due to pay has the country in the state it's in. If you don't pay you deserve a large fine, whinging about people finding out you're a cheat doesn't wash with me

Very basic analyis of the countrys position.

120_Minutes

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Well for someone that doesn't want Irish broadcasting you seem to be availing of the service:

Well done on trawling my post history for an irish programme i watched in my parents gaff (who pay their licence because they do watch rte) around christmas when i was there. Nice effort to catch me out.

oh and if you look further the reason i replied in the "ads on rte at christmas" thread is because it had been so long since i watched rte at christmas (again at my parents house) i couldnt remember if they did or not.


Shall i pay my 160 quid now?

Phoebas

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Do I need to break the Jefferson quote down into fun size Mars* pieces?

He is disobeying the law. He's not paying the tax.

*I'm fecking starving, FWIW

Go on so.
Break down the Jefferson quote for me. (Hint: He never said it)

120_Minutes

Phoebas wrote: »

Go on so.
Break down the Jefferson quote for me. (Hint: He never said it)

fine then, will martin luther king jr's one do?

"One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."

Fr_Dougal

120_Minutes wrote: »

Well done on trawling my post history for an irish programme i watched in my parents gaff (who pay their licence because they do watch rte) around christmas when i was there. Nice effort to catch me out.

oh and if you look further the reason i replied in the "ads on rte at christmas" thread is because it had been so long since i watched rte at christmas (again at my parents house) i couldnt remember if they did or not.


Shall i pay my 160 quid now?

My point is, lots of people watch and listen to RTE from time to time. Now if somebody has no access to it, and never avails of their service they shouldn't have to pay for it. And I wasn't trawling through your posts, it took me less than a minute to see that you had in fact watched something on RTE. I'm sure if I was to actually trawl I'd find more damning evidence.

Sofiztikated

Phoebas wrote: »

Go on so.
Break down the Jefferson quote for me. (Hint: He never said it)

Huh. TIL.

I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong.

I still want a Mars though.

Phoebas

120_Minutes wrote: »

fine then, will martin luther king jr's one do?

"One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."

Your trying to co-opt Jefferson and now Martin Luther King into an argument on paying the TV licence is laughable.

I have this sneaking doubt that when King was writing that from his prison cell, he had something more in mind than someone who is refusing to pay their TV licence while at the same time making no political effort whatsoever to have the law changed.

WhatNowForUs?

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

I wish they would. There must be thousands of quid owed by each Johnny-Cant-Be-Bothered over the decades.

How would you propose them doing this. A a state body it would cost more then they would recieve.

120_Minutes

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

I'm sure if I was to actually trawl I'd find more damning evidence.

it would be from a time when i did (begrudgingly) pay my tv licence. as a 10+ year member on boards it wouldnt be hard indeed. but thats beside the point of the discussion.

in my home we watch sky (minus the irish stations), a fair bit of BBC, and a lot of netflix, and the occasional torrent (whoops thats illegal!)

anything i see thats home produced i stumble upon here on boards or facebook. but thats very rare.

120_Minutes

Phoebas wrote: »

Your trying to co-opt Jefferson and now Martin Luther King into an argument on paying the TV licence is laughable.

I have this sneaking doubt that when King was writing that from his prison cell, he had something more in mind than someone who is refusing to pay their TV licence while at the same time making no political effort whatsoever to have the law changed.

well then, as someone who had admitted to being not very political in the past, can you advise me on how i make that effort? genuine question.

I believe this law, and some others are unjust. how do i go about making my voice heard by the right people?

Engine No.9

120_Minutes wrote: »

it would be from a time when i did (begrudgingly) pay my tv licence. as a 10+ year member on boards it wouldnt be hard indeed. but thats beside the point of the discussion.

in my home we watch sky (minus the irish stations), a fair bit of BBC, and a lot of netflix, and the occasional torrent (whoops thats illegal!)

anything i see thats home produced i stumble upon here on boards or facebook. but thats very rare.

How do you manage that? There's no sky package that I'm aware of that doesn't carry the Irish stations as standard!!!??? Unless of course you're not paying for sky either and just using their dish and box with the free to air stations.???

120_Minutes

pajopearl wrote: »

How do you manage that? There's no sky package that I'm aware of that doesn't carry the Irish stations as standard!!!??? Unless of course you're not paying for sky either and just using their dish and box with the free to air stations.???

I pay for them, but i dont watch them... like ever. there is nothing on irish televison that appeals to my interests, that i cannot find on other broadcasters, or on other media.

and judging from what i see on the epg when i fly past them. or on threads here on boards it looks like i aint missing much.

really, the only time i see rte is when i visit my parents.