Draft Knockout match 5: Incognitoman vs BucketyBuck

Bounty Hunter

time for the 2nd batch of the first round of knockout games starting with Incognitoman vs BucketyBuck

First off those two will get to reply showing us their teams and tactics for this fixture. Only after that will a poll be added for voting purposes. Please if you aren't competing here don't post until they have done their write ups too

You are to vote on which team you think would win in a straight Vs match up. What constitutes a team more likely to win is totaly up to each voters own discretion but perhaps you can be swayed by either posters write ups especially if you are not 100% familiar with a player in their team because after all any player from any era was eligible to be drafted in this draft so nobody is expected to recognize nor rate every single name.

In previous drafts only those taking part had their votes counted when cast...This is not the case this time (nor was it then my mistake), all votes from boards.ie posters will be counted once the polls are added. However in the case of a tied vote only those votes from people who explained why they voted in such a way on thread will count.

people dont have to agree with each others opinions and the draftee's are bound to defend their teams chances but lets try and not go round in circles arguing people and try and keep it civil. Once the two draftees have posted their sides and the write ups to go with them I (or another mod)will add the Polls and 48hrs for voting will begin.

Good luck fellas and have at it!

bucketybuck

My Team

Dino Zoff: World cup winning captain, European championship winner, 6 Serie A titles, Uefa cup, and holder of the record for longest stretch without conceding a goal in international football, my goalkeeping spot is in a legends hands.

Javier Zanetti: The most capped player in Argentine history, Inter Milan’s record appearance holder, 5 serie A titles, 4 Coppa Italia. 4 Supercoppa Italia. Winner of both the Uefa cup and the Uefa Champions league.

Andreas Brehme: A genuinely two footed player, noted for exceptional ability at free kicks and crossing, as well as taking penalties. One of only three defenders named on the world cup 1990 all-star team. Winner of German and Italian titles, the Uefa cup, and of course a world cup winner, he would have the full set only for defeats for club and country in European cup finals.

Marcel Desailly: World cup winner, European cup winner, UEFA Champions league x2, Serie A x2, Supercoppa Italiana, Uefa super cup x2, FA cup winner, Premier league team of the decade, Uefa 96 team of the tournament, World Cup 98 team of the tournament, Euro 2000 team of the tournament.

Matthias Sammer: The German captain as they won Euro 96, named player of the tournament, the first defender since Beckenbaur in 1972 to win the Ballon d'or, the catalyst for Dortmund to dominate the Bundesliga and win the 1997 European cup, one of the greatest defenders ever.

Duncan Edwards: The player that made Bobby Charlton feel inferior, a beast of a player often labelled the best that ever would have been had his life not been cut tragically short, the complete all rounder and rock of my team.

Roy Keane: Do I really need to say anything here? Turin ’99, Holland in the qualifiers 2001, putting Veira back in his box at Highbury, this was quite simply the greatest midfielder ever.

Socrates: A Brazilian world cup captain, considered to be one of the greatest midfielders ever to play the game, known for great through passes and his vision on the field, as well as his physical strength. Two-footed player and a prolific goal scorer, a proper legend.

Roberto Baggio: Think about the 1994 world cup. You are now thinking about Roberto Baggio. Nuff said.

George Best: Once upon a time, before Messi and Ronaldo, people used to ask who was the greatest player ever. And the answer was always the same, it’s one of three players, Pele, Maradona, or George Best. Not Cruyff, not Beckenbaur, it was the always the same three. I sometimes wonder do kids today appreciate just how good George Best was, but the fact was he could legitimately stake a claim to being the greatest ever. Pele good, Maradona better, George Best.

Alan Shearer: The highest ever Premier league goal scorer, scores headers, tap-ins, free kicks, inside and outside the box, beats defenders for pace, simply put, the complete striker.



Defence:
It seems to be a cliché at this stage, everybody seems to think they have the prettiest defence. But not only do I have the best set of defenders, I also have the most suited defenders for this type of game, for two reasons.
In the centre, Desailly and Sammer are not only two dominant defenders, with all the pace and power in the world, but they are also two outstanding readers of the game, as evidenced by the teams that felt able to play them at sweeper or even in midfield. Many defenders picked are blood and thunder centre backs like John Terry, but with the likes of Maradona and Messi floating about that type of last ditch tackling defender is a liability. Sammer and Desailly are far more intelligent footballers. They can clear headers and tackle, no doubt about that, but they will also stop the likes of Messi before he even knows he has started.

My full backs are also excellent choices. It’s my opinion that many people have missed a trick regarding full backs. The likes of Santos and Cafu went pretty early but the fact is that an attacking full back is a liability in this game. My first opponent has Miacon at right back, and it’s nice that he will push forward, but has he missed that fact that he will be leaving space behind for George ****ing Best!!! The likes of Best will destroy these attacking full backs. My full backs are world class, but they are also defenders first and foremost, they will squeeze Henry and Ronaldo all day long

Midfield

The team of Keane and Edwards will again be dominant here. A lot of teams have went the tippy tappy route, picking limited players like Makelele and Deschamps as if it’s a good thing. I have intentionally went for two of the best box to box midfielders that ever played the game, they will do in these games exactly what they did in every big game they ever played, and that is completely and utterly dominate the centre of the field. They will rampage up and down the field, shielding the defence before launching forward to not only support the attack, but to increase the tempo of the game. Xavi and his ilk are able to tippy tappy around the likes of Micheal Carrick, but Keane and Edwards are different animals entirely.

Attack

Because of the defensive solidity behind them, my attacking core will have a lot of freedom to do as they will, and I think it’s one of the most complete attacking foursomes in the game, it has everything. George Best, one of the greatest wingers ever, will be carrying the ball, dribbling, doing whatever he damn well pleases. Socrates can also take on defenders, but he was also one of the most insightful players ever, he will be passing and playing in the others constantly. Baggio will be prowling the final third linking it all together, and Shearer will be making life hell for the central defenders while scoring copious numbers of goals.

There are no duplicate players in my attack, everybody brings something different to the party and it would be incredibly difficult to stop them.

Overall

My team has a solid defensive core, is very balanced, has nobody out of position, has proper legends in the team, has a lot of variety up front, and perhaps most importantly is full of winners. World and European cups abound, but more than that personalities like Sammer, Keane, Baggio and Best demonstrably stood up to be counted when the time came, there are no flaky cry-babies in this team.



Why I am going to win this matchup:

Best v Maicon: Are we talking about the same Maicon that couldn’t handle Gareth Bale? My god, George Best is going to make absolute mincemeat of him. I like the team in general, but there is a massive weakness at both full backs and we will be exploiting it. Hughes is slightly better than Maicon, but still not in Socrates league, we will be playing the wings all game long, and there is nobody better than Shearer to score goals in a game like that.

In midfield, Davids and Robson are simply lesser versions of my own midfield, Keane and Edwards. Honestly, just ask yourself, if you had to choose one pairing of the two which would you go for? It has to be the Keane/Edwards pairing, and for good reason. We will win the midfield battle all day long imo.

I’m not worried about Lampard in the slightest, he’s not even in the same league as his own teammates. His biggest talent is arriving late into the box and grabbing goals, but not only will Keane and Edwards be tracking back constantly, I will have a packed defence that will see him coming a mile off. Apart from that he will be a boy lost among men, he simply doesn’t have the technical ability to really hurt my side.

Incognitomans biggest strength is his front two, but in this game they are going to be shackled by a very versatile and mobile back four. I picked Sammer and Desailly specifically for games like this. Teams don’t have Andy Carrolls up front, they have Ronaldos and Henrys floating about doing damage. I don’t need static hard men in defence, I need intelligent defenders tracking runs and spotting danger early, and I have two of the best ever in that mould. They will be ready for them, ably assisted by Zanetti and Brehme who will be defenders first and foremost in this game. The full backs will be tight to Henry and Ronaldo all game, staying tight in, denying space and crowding them at every opportunity.

With Henry and Ronaldo under severe pressure, and Davids/Robson getting crushed by Keane and Edwards this game is over, who exactly is going to create the goals for Incognitoman? He has no Xavi or Iniesta here to create from deep and I can see Ronaldo being just as isolated and frustrated as he was in the European cup final against Barcalona. Maicon and Hughes will have their own problems trying to figure out what the hell to do about Best and Socrates, they will be no use.

Shevchenko? The failed Chelsea player? We’ll have bigger tests than him if we get through believe me.

IncognitoMan

Defence:

Seaman: As solid a kepper as they come. Wonderful shot stopper and commands the area.

Maicon: The man who kept dani alves out for the brazil team when he was on top form. Maicon was the best right back in the world at hes peak

Nesta: One of the games best ever centre backs

Scirea: Is one of only nine players in the history of the European football that won all three major UEFA football competitions. Kept Franco Baresi out of the national team for four years until he retired in 1986. A true great

Hughes: Left back for the great Liverpool side if the 1970s and for england for 11 years. 2 european cups and 4 league titles.

Midfield:

Davids: Man I used to love watching this guy when I was younger. The ultimate midfield warrior.

Robson: 65 times Robson captained England. 3rd most in their history. Over 500 games for man utd he is the perfect captain.

Lampard: Simply put the best goal scoring midfielder I have ever seen. Amazingly he is now Chelsea's all time top goal scorer with 203 goals.

Forwards:

Henry: Arsenals all time top goal scorer with 228. Henry at hes peak was an absolute machine. The player I was most jealous of when I was younger. He has everything.

C.Ronaldo: little needs to be said here. More goals than appearances for real. 201 goals in 199 games.

Shevchenko: One of the most feared strikers in european football at hes peak. Turned up with important goals all the way throughout he's career.


Ok thats my side. Just to reply to the points about 'why buck is going to win this matchup'

Best v Maicon: Are we talking about the same Maicon that couldn’t handle Gareth Bale? My god, George Best is going to make absolute mincemeat of him. I like the team in general, but there is a massive weakness at both full backs and we will be exploiting it. Hughes is slightly better than Maicon, but still not in Socrates league, we will be playing the wings all game long, and there is nobody better than Shearer to score goals in a game like that.

No we are talking about maicon the best right back in the world around 2008-2010. There is no weakness in the fullbacks area in fact in fact I have probably the best atticking right back of the last 10 years and a mainstay of one of England,s most successful sides

In midfield, Davids and Robson are simply lesser versions of my own midfield, Keane and Edwards. Honestly, just ask yourself, if you had to choose one pairing of the two which would you go for? It has to be the Keane/Edwards pairing, and for good reason. We will win the midfield battle all day long imo.

You seam very sure that Robson wasnt as good as keane but he is at least on par if not better and Edwards unfortunately died at 21 so to say he is miles ahead of davids is a bit strange to me. Edwards may well have gone on to be one of the games greats but he was cut of before he got there. Davids on the other hand has achieved 3 dutch leagues 2 cups, 3 Italian leagues 2 cups, 1 Champs league and 1 uefa cup. was also named in the team of the tournament at euro 2000 and world cup 1998

I’m not worried about Lampard in the slightest, he’s not even in the same league as his own teammates. His biggest talent is arriving late into the box and grabbing goals, but not only will Keane and Edwards be tracking back constantly, I will have a packed defence that will see him coming a mile off. Apart from that he will be a boy lost among men, he simply doesn’t have the technical ability to really hurt my side.

Greatest Goal scoring midfielder I have ever seen. If you are not worried then more fool you



Shevchenko? The failed Chelsea player? We’ll have bigger tests than him if we get through believe me.

Im not sure what you are trying to say here. Shevchenko the 3rd all time top goalscorer in the champions league. Ac milans 2nd all time top goal scorer but ya you dont rate him :pac:

Bounty Hunter

poll up, who do you think would win peeps?

bucketybuck

IncognitoMan wrote: »

No we are talking about maicon the best right back in the world around 2008-2010. There is no weakness in the fullbacks area in fact in fact I have probably the best atticking right back of the last 10 years

It is that Maicon? Good.

Seriously, let him attack all day, please let him attack, because George Best is on that wing and will wreak havoc if Maicon doesn't stick to him like glue. And lets be honest, sticking like glue isn't Maicon strength is it.

You seam very sure that Robson wasnt as good as keane but he is at least on par if not better and Edwards unfortunately died at 21 so to say he is miles ahead of davids is a bit strange to me.

I genuinely think that if you ask any United fan, they will rate Keane higher than Robson, and yes I do believe Edwards was one of those talents that transcended the game. Just consider the reputation that 21 year old has half a century later. Its not that I don't rate Robson or Davids, I do, but they are not as good as my two.

Greatest Goal scoring midfielder I have ever seen. If you are not worried then more fool you

Lampard has had a brilliant career, but when it comes to the best of the best, in a game like this, the fact is he hasn't the technical ability to really hurt me. This is the guy who has never dominated a game at international level, he just doesnt have the first touch or vision to excel. He is a fantastic goal getter, but as I said, Keane and Edwards will be tracking his runs, the full backs will be tight in behind denying him space, and the two centre backs are very intelligent defenders who will meet any of his forward runs. It really is the worst possible type of game for Lampard to try and play in.

Im not sure what you are trying to say here. Shevchenko the 3rd all time top goalscorer in the champions league. Ac milans 2nd all time top goal scorer but ya you dont rate him :pac:

I'll be worried when I face the no.1 all time top goalscorer in the champions league, and Milans no.1 all time top scorer. :pac:

Seriously, do you see Pele flopping at Chelsea? Van Basten? The best of the best score goals everywhere. I seriously rate Shevchenko at his prime, but the fact he couldn't cut it in the premier league is a definite mark against him.

Moneymaker

bucketybuck wrote: »

Seriously, do you see Pele flopping at Chelsea? Van Basten? The best of the best score goals everywhere. I seriously rate Shevchenko at his prime, but the fact he couldn't cut it in the premier league is a definite mark against him.

He wasn't in his prime at Chelsea. I consider the best of Shevchenko his AC Milan period so his form at Chelsea isnt a factor.

Best vs Maicon might be the biggest mismatch in the entire draft. Only problem is I don't see Shearer getting too much change out of those two centre halves so the emphasis is on Baggio to score the goals imo.

There's no way IMs attack won't score goals but there's no way he can deal with Best either.

Dunno, have to think about this one.

Winston Payne

Maicon is being majorly underwritten here. He was top drawer for at least a good four years, had a fantastic engine and stood up to a man well. It won't be a pushover for Best by any means.

IncognitoMan

I dont remember maicon being too much of a problem to the treble winning Inter side. He also provides extra ammo for my forwards.

redzerdrog

ICM wins this for me, very sold team, great front 3, good balance in midfield and good defence.

I dont like BB two CBs in particular i think desailly played his best football as a DM and only moved to CB later in his career and i also think him and Sammer are far too alike. The other thing is Edwards in midfield, he died when he was 21 and my all accounts had the potential to be a great but I dont think he compares to someone like Robson.

Winston Payne

I've gone for Incognitoman. I feel his team is marginally more balanced and carries more potency in the attack. His midfield too is manned by proven players and would outnumber bucketybuck in there. Baggio was more of a second striker than an attacking midfielder. I don't fancy Socrates in that role on the right as he'll drift infield potentially exposing Zanetti to Henry and Hughes in support. Edwards isn't a midfield choice I'd have gone for either as while he played in midfield at times he was primarily known as a forward and he even played at centre half on occasion. Whoever out of him and Keane is detailed to pick up Lampard will then grant space for either Davids or Robson to drive forward. Baggio won't track back so either Keane and Edwards are driven deep or a midfielder from Incognitoman's team comes forward and isn't tracked.

The front three of Incognitoman is so dangerous too. Either of Henry or Ronaldo can come inside and Shevchenko will either swap positions (Shevchenko was a Lobanovskiy boy, universality in a forward was his game) or drop deep and feed them with passes as they drive towards goal. Shearer and Baggio are a ridiculous front two but the service they'll receive is in question and Incognitoman's forward unit carries a more varied threat with the passing, dribbling or shooting options the three players he has in there carry.

bucketybuck

Winston Payne wrote: »

I've gone for Incognitoman. I feel his team is marginally more balanced and carries more potency in the attack. His midfield too is manned by proven players and would outnumber bucketybuck in there. Baggio was more of a second striker than an attacking midfielder. I don't fancy Socrates in that role on the right as he'll drift infield potentially exposing Zanetti to Henry and Hughes in support. Edwards isn't a midfield choice I'd have gone for either as while he played in midfield at times he was primarily known as a forward and he even played at centre half on occasion. Whoever out of him and Keane is detailed to pick up Lampard will then grant space for either Davids or Robson to drive forward. Baggio won't track back so either Keane and Edwards are driven deep or a midfielder from Incognitoman's team comes forward and isn't tracked.

The front three of Incognitoman is so dangerous too. Either of Henry or Ronaldo can come inside and Shevchenko will either swap positions (Shevchenko was a Lobanovskiy boy, universality in a forward was his game) or drop deep and feed them with passes as they drive towards goal. Batistuta and Baggio are a ridiculous front two but the service they'll receive is in question and Incognitoman's forward unit carries a more varied threat with the passing, dribbling or shooting options the three players he has in there carry.

I appreciate everybody has their opinion and I dont want to pick apart everybody's responses, but everything about this post needs refuting. You say Baggio was more of a second striker? But thats exactly where I have him playing?

You don't fancy Socrates on the right? But thats where he spent most of career?

Edwards was primarily known as a forward? WTF? No he wasn't, he was a defensive player first and an allrounder second. Why are you saying these things?

Either Keane or Edwards are driven deep? They both are, they are box to box midfielders, thats the plan, its not an issue for them?

Batistuta and Baggio are a ridiculous front two? They aren't even on the same side?

You have confused me here, really.

Oranage2

I can't decide at all.

Winston Payne

bucketybuck wrote: »

I appreciate everybody has their opinion and I dont want to pick apart everybody's responses, but everything about this post needs refuting. You say Baggio was more of a second striker? But thats exactly where I have him playing?

You don't fancy Socrates on the right? But thats where he spent most of career?

Edwards was primarily known as a forward? WTF? No he wasn't, he was a defensive player first and an allrounder second. Why are you saying these things?

Either Keane or Edwards are driven deep? They both are, they are box to box midfielders, thats the plan, its not an issue for them?

Batistuta and Baggio are a ridiculous front two? They aren't even on the same side?

You have confused me here, really.

You've confused me equally. Edwards was most certainly not a defensive player first and foremost. Socrates played mainly from the right? What? Fair enough I got the strikers mixed up. The point still stands, it's a great pairing but they won't get the service.

bucketybuck

Winston Payne wrote: »

You've confused me equally. Edwards was most certainly not a defensive player first and foremost.

From wiki:

Although he is primarily remembered as a defensive midfielder, Edwards is said to have been able to operate in any outfield position on the field of play

From the Man United website:

Position: :Half-back

From the international football hall of fame website:

One only needs to consider that "Big Duncan" had established himself as England's left-half at the age of 18. In 1966, when England won the World Cup, he would have been 29 and in his prime. The irony is that his position became that of the victorious captain, Bobby Moore, an honour Edwards himself might have held.

Winston Payne

Edwards was playing as a withdrawn forward towards the time of the Munich crash. That's where he'd come through and that's where most of the accounts that I've read of his play place him.

bucketybuck

Winston Payne wrote: »

Edwards was playing as a withdrawn forward towards the time of the Munich crash. That's where he'd come through and that's where most of the accounts that I've read of his play place him.

We are looking at very different accounts then. For example his last match was the European cup quarter final, and there he lined out at number 6.

In fact, every single account I can find lists him playing at half back that season.

Morte

bucketybuck wrote: »

You don't fancy Socrates on the right? But thats where he spent most of career?

Forgive my ignorance but are you sure on this? I've been googling for the last while and he's generally described as a "midfield general". Inverting the Pyramid says Brazil 82 "had no wide players whatsoever apart from Eder" and says the width came form the full backs. Zanetti could do this of course but you've said you want him to mind the house against Henry and not go forward.

On the other side there seems to be an issue with Emlyn Hughes, the left back who'd be affected by this. The guardian obituary says he was uneasy at left back as a right footer. They quote the following match report from 1969:

"England's attacking potential was further compromised by the choice of a left-back who won't use his left foot. Emlyn Hughes, a fine, forceful player for Liverpool, ran through often into the empty space on the left. Each time, alas, there was a mandatory hiatus when he carefully adjusted himself to centre with his right foot. This, in an epoch when every second counts, is perfectly absurd and might be distinctly costly were Hughes faced by a better right-winger, Jairzinho (Brazil) or Magnusson (Sweden), who would run him down the line."

This won't be a major problem if he's not faced by a direct opponent and is free to rampage forward. It's a major problem if Socrates is a right winger.

Maicon and Shevchenko were both great players in their prime, which is before they arrived in England.

This is the toughest one for me so far to decide. I'm going to have a think before voting.

bucketybuck

Morte wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but are you sure on this? I've been googling for the last while and he's generally described as a "midfield general".

He wasn't a winger in the sense that Goerge Best on the other wing was, but I am still perfectly content to have him on the right against Hughes, exactly the same as you see the likes of Rivaldo, Maradona or Messi in some of the other draft teams playing out on the right.

As I said in my write up, I consider this a strength not a weakness. Best might have the classic wing play, but Socrates brings a different dimension meaning the opposing defense has to cope with different styles of attacking player facing them. And don't forget, Socrates reportedly scored 41 goals in 59 Série A games, and 172 goals in 297 matches in total, he is very much a goal scoring threat to Emlyn Hughes.

redzerdrog

I think the above debate about edwards shows exactly why he was a bad pick with him tragically passing aged 21 he had little time to define a career and anything I have read about him suggested he could play pretty much anywhere on the pitch but was he a jack of all trades and master of none? am afraid we will never know just how good he might have been

Moneymaker

I literally cannot pick a winner so I am not voting in this matchup.

Not that it matters one bit since you'll have 20 random votes with no explanation and no idea who made the votes.

PhlegmyMoses

Went for IncognitoMan. Called it in the discussion thread that his forward line was immense and it would prove too strong for most teams. With a balanced midfield of proven quality and a strong defence, I can't see him losing many. His weakest player is his goalkeeper, who was still excellent on his day. Its an unlucky matchup for BucketyBuck because his team was one of the other teams I thought looked like a possible winner, if the draws went right for him.

jem

Have looked at this carefully as like all the games younhave some unreal footballers on each team.
BucketyBuck :
He has the best goal keeper I have ever seen:
THe defense is solid and balanced people might forget how good some of these were.
Do think Edwards was a bit of a mistake
Socrates: now he was class a pure playmaker- remember his penalty in 82 .
Best- one of the best
Alan Shearer: could score goals
On the other hand:
Incognitoman:
I dont think seaman was op this class- an excellend golie but
Wouldn't have picked old crazy horse myself
Excellent strikers but I dont like the midfield : There is no true midfield general, a creator of magic. I dont believe Robson is at this level at all or lampard for that matter:

Have to go for BucketyBuck

G.K.

Can't pick a winner. Too tight.

bucketybuck

Looks like I have lost. Congratulations Incognitoman, I suspect you could go deep in this competition.