Phoenix Park - Chesterfield Avenue

Hub D15

There was a public consultation on keeping this road open, the results of which were not released and now the park staff seem to have reverted to closing the road at weekends.

This is a public road being denied to most of the public who are paying for it on the whim of unelected park staff.

I can understand it being closed for marathons etc but it is being closed for nothing whatsoever. Ironically enough the only people who can continue to drive on it is the very park staff who are closing it to everyone else.

Has anyone heard anything about results of the public consultation?

Aard

Is weekend traffic so bad that the Navan Road isn't an option? It's a park after all, not a rat-run.

Hub D15

What if you are going to Heuston/Quays or the Zoo?

Closing the main road makes it more difficult to access the park, not easier.

Aard

It might make it more difficult to access by car, but makes it far more pleasant for those using the park. The zoo is accessible from North Circular, and the quays are accessible by going through Stoneybatter or down Infirmary Road.

The most frustrating things about the Phoenix Park are trying to cross Chesterfield Avenue and using the entrance at Parkgate St, both because of cars. Perhaps if Chesterfield was designed to be more sympathetic to cyclists and peds, or if it was routed away from the main spine it'd be better for everyone.

Cilar

It's a park, not a motorway

monument

Hub D15 wrote: »

This is a public road being denied to most of the public who are paying for it on the whim of unelected park staff.

Not a single person is being denied access. Your car is -- but that's not you.

The closure is in line with the park's management plan with is endorsed by the minister in charge of the OPW.

Hub D15 wrote: »

I can understand it being closed for marathons etc but it is being closed for nothing whatsoever. Ironically enough the only people who can continue to drive on it is the very park staff who are closing it to everyone else.

Where are you going to that going around this small bit of road would make much difference?

January

There are other roads in the park besides Chesterfield Ave and they are all open.

LXFlyer

A simple trip to the Phoenix Park website enables one to find this document, in the public domain, which does deal with the public consultation.

http://www.phoenixpark.ie/media/Chesterfield%20Av%20closure%20report.pdf

As other posters have said, you still have several alternative routes to/from the city:
Navan Road, Blackhorse Avenue, the perimeter roads of the Phoenix Park, or via Knockmaroon Hill and Chapelizod.

How much longer will any of those take you? 10 minutes maximum. For goodness sakes it's only for summer weekends - it is hardly the end of the world as we know it.

As for the staff being "unelected" - they are professional staff employed to manage the Park and are doing precisely that - I don't think they deserve to be insulted for doing their jobs.

Sacksian

Would love to see the entire centre of the Park closed to traffic (and not turned into parking) think it would improve it hugely as an amenity and also open up lots more possibilities (or just turned into a greenway).

JuliusCaesar

I regularly walk in the park and the speed at which cars drive through the park is unbelievable. I'd be very happy if the speed was much reduced, to the point that only people who want to use the park itself will drive in it*, and that those who use it as a rat-run will find another route.




*I'm aware that a lot of elderly people and disabled and people ferrying kids need to use a car to get to a particular location in the park.

amtc

When Chesterfield Avenue was closed for Bloom, a taxi from Heuston to my house was €40 instead of €20...

...when you're commuting in the morning, Blackhorse Avenue can't cope with the extratraffic, andnow that the gates are not two way on the side roads, it adds a lot on

jack presley

Sacksian wrote: »

Would love to see the entire centre of the Park closed to traffic (and not turned into parking) think it would improve it hugely as an amenity and also open up lots more possibilities (or just turned into a greenway).

People using the park still need places to park* and apart from the car park beside the zoo, visitor's centre, papal cross and the couple of small ones over by the football grounds, there really isn't anywhere suitable apart from along Chesterfield Avenue. So if Chesterfield Avenue is closed to traffic, people, especially on busy days in the Summer are going to have to resort to parking on the grass verges along the narrow roads that loop around the park which would probably be dangerous for cyclists and would destroy the grass.

* it is not practical or realistic to suggest everyone take public transport or cycle to the park from wherever in the country they are coming from.

Sacksian

jack presley wrote: »

People using the park still need places to park* and apart from the car park beside the zoo, visitor's centre, papal cross and the couple of small ones over by the football grounds, there really isn't anywhere suitable apart from along Chesterfield Avenue. So if Chesterfield Avenue is closed to traffic, people, especially on busy days in the Summer are going to have to resort to parking on the grass verges along the narrow roads that loop around the park which would probably be dangerous for cyclists and would destroy the grass.

* it is not practical or realistic to suggest everyone take public transport or cycle to the park from wherever in the country they are coming from.

To be fair, it's actually pretty well serviced by public transport, isn't it?

Within the park, maybe they could reintroduce the Phoenix Park shuttle bus (at least, I think it's gone)?

And I think you could create parking spaces at the top of the North Road/Chapelizod Gate if you had to, to keep the centre free.

Wasn't there supposed to be loads of new parking at the Chapelizod gate?

I'd much rather people were encouraged to use public transport and I really don't think it should be a thoroughfare. Just putting forward some ideas on how that could be achieved without restricting access!

jack presley

Sacksian wrote: »

But if say a family decide on a whim to go to the park on a lovely sunny day, are they really going to get a bus into town with the buggy, picnic basket and roller blades or whatever, then hop on another bus to get to the park?

As for the shuttle bus, in theory it would work but it would have to a lot more frequent to the one that was there in the past. And where's the money going to come from to buy these buses, build the new car parks etc? Public transport budgets are getting slashed these days.

dickwod1

Pain in the arse when you dont know about it ... I was driving home from town around 9.30 Saturday morning said I'll go through the park got to the other side of the Phoenix monument roundabout and could have crashed through the little white poles across the road ... had to detour across loads of speed bumps to the gate at the halfway house ... For what? ... Stupid decision IMHO

Sacksian

jack presley wrote: »

But if say a family decide on a whim to go to the park on a lovely sunny day, are they really going to get a bus into town with the buggy, picnic basket and roller blades or whatever, then hop on another bus to get to the park?

As for the shuttle bus, in theory it would work but it would have to a lot more frequent to the one that was there in the past. And where's the money going to come from to buy these buses, build the new car parks etc? Public transport budgets are getting slashed these days.

I accept I'm probably in a minority on this but all I'm suggesting is that there are options, including adding parking areas (which I've suggested above) to the existing ones, to divert traffic/parking from Chesterfield Avenue.

So, you could still drive and park there but not on Chesterfield Avenue - that's reasonable enough!

If we're agreed that the shuttle bus could work in theory, then I'm happy enough with that.

I think the question about funding for public projects is probably for a different discussion, as that could get pretty broad: principles of taxation, government priorities in social policy, health policy, transport policy, role of local government, etc!!

the world wonders

jack presley wrote: »

* it is not practical or realistic to suggest everyone take public transport or cycle to the park from wherever in the country they are coming from.

Park in one of the many car parks in the city centre, take a fifteen-minute journey on the red line luas which lets you off at Heuston a few hundred meters from the main gate. Seems quite practical and realistic to me...

jack presley

the world wonders wrote: »

Park in one of the many car parks in the city centre, take a fifteen-minute journey on the red line luas which lets you off at Heuston a few hundred meters from the main gate. Seems quite practical and realistic to me...

I take it you don't have kids with bikes etc?

I know it can be done. Anything can be done. But is it practical?

the world wonders

jack presley wrote: »

I know it can be done. Anything can be done. But is it practical?

So you'd rather turn the finest public park in Dublin into a free parking lot, than put your kids through the mild inconvenience of taking their bikes onto the Luas? The world does not revolve around you and your family you know.

jack presley

the world wonders wrote: »

So you'd rather turn the finest public park in Dublin into a free parking lot, than put your kids through the mild inconvenience of taking their bikes onto the Luas?

No I wouldn't turn it into a free parking lot, I'd leave it as it is with the ample, safe parking within the yellow lines on Chesterfield Avenue.

jack presley

the world wonders wrote: »

The world does not revolve around you and your family you know.

Never said it did. I don't have kids by the way but I do use the park a few times a week throughout the whole year for jogging. I come from north of the park so would your solution for me to drive by the park (I presume I'm not allowed drive through it) into town. Then hop on the Luas to go back the way I just came from, do my jog. Hop back on the Luas into town and then home? Yeah, that's realistic.

ProudDUB

Sacksian wrote: »

To be fair, it's actually pretty well serviced by public transport, isn't it?

I'd much rather people were encouraged to use public transport and I really don't think it should be a thoroughfare. Just putting forward some ideas on how that could be achieved without restricting access!

The park isn't serviced by public transport at all. The buses and trains go around it, not through it. The park is just too big to make everyone use public transport if they want to use it imo. It's fine if there is one specific thing on in one specific part of it (such as a concert) where you can encourage people to get a bus to the gate that is nearest to the event. But its not workable for the hoards of people, who are just going to random parts of it.

Not everyone who uses the Phoenix Park lives on the Luas line, or on a bus line that passes the park by. What are you supposed to do with your car once you get to the Luas stop or bus stop? Pay a fortune in parking fees at Heuston Station, or park on the street and risk getting a ticket or being clamped? If you do decide to leave the car at home & you are getting buses and Darts to the Luas, and then getting the Luas to Heuston, how much will that set you back if you are a family of 4/5 people? Is it fair or practical or financially viable to expect people to do all that?

Sacksian

ProudDUB wrote: »

The park isn't serviced by public transport at all. The buses and trains go around it, not through it. The park is just too big to make everyone use public transport if they want to use it imo. It's fine if there is one specific thing on in one specific part of it (such as a concert) where you can encourage people to get a bus to the gate that is nearest to the event. But its not workable for the hoards of people, who are just going to random parts of it.

Not everyone who uses the Phoenix Park lives on the Luas line, or on a bus line that passes the park by. What are you supposed to do with your car once you get to the Luas stop or bus stop? Pay a fortune in parking fees at Heuston Station, or park on the street and risk getting a ticket or being clamped? If you do decide to leave the car at home & you are getting buses and Darts to the Luas, and then getting the Luas to Heuston, how much will that set you back if you are a family of 4/5 people? Is it fair or practical or financially viable to expect people to do all that?

Hi - I think the amount of traffic in the park impacts on everyone's ability to enjoy it, so I think ways of looking to reduce that should be explored. I just don't think it should be a thoroughfare.

If we agree on the desirability of reducing traffic in the park, then let's look at what can be done.

I suggested above that there were areas of the park other than Chesterfield Avenue that could be used to create parking, if you had to.

I'd put the sustainability of the park as an amenity as a priority in any decisions so that would be my starting point and I don't think the current amount of traffic is sustainable.

LXFlyer

amtc wrote: »

When Chesterfield Avenue was closed for Bloom, a taxi from Heuston to my house was €40 instead of €20...

...when you're commuting in the morning, Blackhorse Avenue can't cope with the extratraffic, andnow that the gates are not two way on the side roads, it adds a lot on

But under this measure, this section of road is only being closed on Saturdays and Sundays.

That does not significantly impact on anyone's commute.

monument

jack presley wrote: »

I take it you don't have kids with bikes etc?

I know it can be done. Anything can be done. But is it practical?

For large amounts of people, safe cycle routes to the park would be a solution for children with bicycles but many of the same people who give out about changes to the park would give about changes to the quays etc.

But nobody is realistically taking about banning parking in the park, so driving to the park isn't an issue. Anybody who talks about this issue as if a large chunk of parking is being taken away is being unrealistic.

dickwod1 wrote: »

Pain in the arse when you dont know about it ... I was driving home from town around 9.30 Saturday morning said I'll go through the park got to the other side of the Phoenix monument roundabout and could have crashed through the little white poles across the road ... had to detour across loads of speed bumps to the gate at the halfway house ... For what? ... Stupid decision IMHO

Sorry, but you're exactly the target of the park's management plan -- they want you to stop using the park as a driving route.

For what? For park users to use and enjoy the park as a park and not for those who want to use it as a ratrun.

I looked yesterday and noted that they had "road closed" and "road closed ahead signs" on the approches to the roundabout. But to be honest I would also put something more visable at the bollards too.

jack presley wrote: »

Never said it did. I don't have kids by the way but I do use the park a few times a week throughout the whole year for jogging. I come from north of the park so would your solution for me to drive by the park (I presume I'm not allowed drive through it) into town. Then hop on the Luas to go back the way I just came from, do my jog. Hop back on the Luas into town and then home? Yeah, that's realistic.

No, I think he was giving a generalised way some people could use public transport.

There's loads of other public transport and other options.

amtc wrote: »

When Chesterfield Avenue was closed for Bloom, a taxi from Heuston to my house was €40 instead of €20...

...when you're commuting in the morning, Blackhorse Avenue can't cope with the extratraffic, andnow that the gates are not two way on the side roads, it adds a lot on

Bloom traffic conditions which caused your taxi to cost so much has little or nothing to do with the tiny detour needed at weekends.

This is weekend only and I really don't think Blackhorse Avenue is that busy on Saturday or Sundays.

John Mason

I use the park a lot, i have no problem with Chesterfield avenue being closed.

there is loads of parking in the park, in fact in all the years i have been using the park, i can only remember 1 day, when i parked on Chesterfield Avenue.

People need to realise this is park, not a rat run.

The Park Wardens do a fanastic job, it is an amazing amenity and should be treated with respect and care, but not as a right

LXFlyer

the world wonders wrote: »

Park in one of the many car parks in the city centre, take a fifteen-minute journey on the red line luas which lets you off at Heuston a few hundred meters from the main gate. Seems quite practical and realistic to me...

I think we have to be realistic about this.

People will still need to drive to and from the park. I think expecting everyone to use public transport is not realistic. For one thing, the park is frankly far too big to access from the main gate.

This small measure is about making the park more pleasant for those that use it at weekends, while maintaining full access to all the other areas.

dickwod1

monument wrote: »

Quote: Originally Posted by dickwod1
Pain in the arse when you dont know about it ... I was driving home from town around 9.30 Saturday morning said I'll go through the park got to the other side of the Phoenix monument roundabout and could have crashed through the little white poles across the road ... had to detour across loads of speed bumps to the gate at the halfway house ... For what? ... Stupid decision IMHO

Sorry, but you're exactly the target of the park's management plan -- they want you to stop using the park as a driving route.

For what? For park users to use and enjoy the park as a park and not for those who want to use it as a ratrun.

I looked yesterday and noted that they had "road closed" and "road closed ahead signs" on the approches to the roundabout. But to be honest I would also put something more visable at the bollards too.

I decided to drive through the park as I wasn't in a hurry, the sun was shining at 9.30 Saturday morning barely a cloud in the sky and I hadn't been in the park in a while, a bit of nice open space maybe see the deers if im lucky (but apparently that's me doing a rat run?),
I was driving from the Grafton Street area so I had deliberately decided to go down the quays to the Phoenix park for a nice leisurely drive through it, but ended up bouncing over very harsh speed ramps on my detour to the Halfway House gates,
If this decision is to prevent so called rat run's why is it closed on the weekend when there is not much traffic about and open on weekdays when there is lots of traffic and its ALL rat runs through the park... Still makes no sense IMHO

humberklog

On a slightly side note - I thought taxis weren't allowed to use the Phoenix Park. I know taxis do use the park- for pickup, drop off and drive through but I thought it was just put up with by the OPW.

There's signage on entrances saying "no commercial vehicles" and I thought taxis would fall under this.

dickwod1

humberklog wrote: »

On a slightly side note - I thought taxis weren't allowed to use the Phoenix Park. I know taxis do use the park- for pickup, drop off and drive through but I thought it was just put up with by the OPW.

There's signage on entrances saying "no commercial vehicles" and I thought taxis would fall under this.

I dont know what the rule is of taxi's being in the park is but a taxi is a PSV (public service vehicle) and not a commercial vehicle.

humberklog

dickwod1 wrote: »

I dont know what the rule is of taxi's being in the park is but a taxi is a PSV (public service vehicle) and not a commercial vehicle.

Ah righto, mind you it doesn't stop commercial vehicles either. It is used a lot as a rat run for delivery vans etc.

Was just curious about taxis in this regard.