Phoenix Park - Chesterfield Avenue

donaghs

Aard wrote: »

Is weekend traffic so bad that the Navan Road isn't an option? It's a park after all, not a rat-run.

Navan Road between ashtown gate roundabout and Phibsboro is rarely a good option. Late at night its grand.

I understand its a park and OPW run it, but I'd prefer the road open. I'm saying this as a driver, cyclist, jogger and someone who brings my kids to the park.

Blackhorse and Chapelizod are alternatives, but they are not as direct a route, and have ramps - terrible ones on Blackhorse ave.

And as a cyclist, it only adds the problem of hordes of slaw jawed gawkers huddling together on the cycle path staring into space or shuffling along blocking the entire route!

ProudDUB

Sacksian wrote: »

Hi - I think the amount of traffic in the park impacts on everyone's ability to enjoy it, so I think ways of looking to reduce that should be explored. I just don't think it should be a thoroughfare.

If we agree on the desirability of reducing traffic in the park, then let's look at what can be done.

I suggested above that there were areas of the park other than Chesterfield Avenue that could be used to create parking, if you had to.

I'd put the sustainability of the park as an amenity as a priority in any decisions so that would be my starting point and I don't think the current amount of traffic is sustainable.

I agree that building other places for cars to park (other than Chesterfield Ave) is very good idea. I also agree with routing commuters on the west side of the city (sorry peeps in Blanch & Castleknock) away from it, so that the entire city can enjoy it more.

But in a previous post you advocated closing the entire centre of the park to cars. That is not workable imo, given the size of the park, and the fact that public transport just skirts the periphery of the park. If you close it all off to cars, how are people supposed to actually get to the centre of the park? What if you have young kids, or babies in a stroller, or you want to go for a picnic? It is not fair to limit the usage of the park to those who are capable or willing of jogging a couple of miles to get there, with all of their picnic gear on their back.

the world wonders wrote: »

So you'd rather turn the finest public park in Dublin into a free parking lot, than put your kids through the mild inconvenience of taking their bikes onto the Luas?

Do you have kids? Lugging kids, a baby in a stroller, toys, nappy changing bags, food, drinks, blankets, a bike or two etc etc onto a bus, and then onto the Luas, and then all the way back again after you are done with your day out, is A LOT more than a minor inconvenience imo. If you are lucky enough to live beside the red Luas line, or beside on a Dublin Bus route that stops outside one of the Park gates, it may be easy enough. Not everyone does though.

Originally Posted by the world wonders
Park in one of the many car parks in the city centre, take a fifteen-minute journey on the red line luas which lets you off at Heuston a few hundred meters from the main gate. Seems quite practical and realistic to me...

You seriously expect people who just want a nice day out in the Park, to pay for parking in town, and then pay for the Luas trip to the Park, and then pay for more Luas trips back to their car? Seriously?

Isn't one of the reasons that people go to a public park in the first place that it is supposed to be a low cost and/or free way to enjoy some fresh air & get some exercise. Parking in town is very expensive. City centre car parks charge anywhere from 2-3 euros an hour to park. Add in Luas fares, and you wouldn't have much change left from 20 quid if you are a family of four. Same with the people that use the sports grounds up there on a regular basis. Telling people that they have to cough up that kind of money every time they want to visit the Park is madness imo.

Sacksian

ProudDUB wrote: »

But in a previous post you advocated closing the entire centre of the park to cars. That is not workable imo, given the size of the park, and the fact that public transport just skirts the periphery of the park. If you close it all off to cars, how are people supposed to actually get to the centre of the park? What if you have young kids, or babies in a stroller, or you want to go for a picnic? It is not fair to limit the usage of the park to those who are capable or willing of jogging a couple of miles to get there, with all of their picnic gear on their back.

I think you could close Chesterfield Ave to traffic (that's what I mean by the entire centre of the park).

If you closed Chesterfield Avenue to traffic, there's no part of the park more than 800m at most from parking, even if you didn't create new parking.

Actually, 800m is a bit generous, maybe 600m - was up there this morning, there really is a lot of parking there already. Can't think of anywhere that isn't near a large parking area.

People park on the main stretch of Chesterfield Avenue because they can but I don't think that there's a great inconvenience if that option was removed.

Most people who park on Chesterfield Avenue during the working week are not users of the park. I don't think that should be facilitated.

kylith

ProudDUB wrote: »

Do you have kids? Lugging kids, a baby in a stroller, toys, nappy changing bags, food, drinks, blankets, a bike or two etc etc onto a bus, and then onto the Luas, and then all the way back again after you are done with your day out, is A LOT more than a minor inconvenience imo. If you are lucky enough to live beside the red Luas line, or beside on a Dublin Bus route that stops outside one of the Park gates, it may be easy enough. Not everyone does though.

Jesus Christ, how did my mother ever get five or six of us to Phoenix Park and the zoo for the day from Waterford public transport? How is she still doing it with her grandchildren? How do people who can't afford cars manage to get around the place? With a bit of streamlining and forward planning.

Do you really need a nappy changing bag? Can't you just stick a couple of nappies and a pack of wipes in your handbag? If you're going to a playground do you really need to bring toys? Are the bikes really so essential to your trip? Would the kids not be able to just run around instead? There are shops all over the place where you could buy some sandwiches and drinks. Or, better still, get a good backpack and you can fit your nappies, food, drinks, frisbee, whatever, in there.

Any time I've gone to Phoenix Park (and it was usually on foot as you couldn't bring dogs on the Luas until recently and I don't have a car) it's difficult to cross that road as the traffic is so bad. And I manage to bring dogs, water, food, bowls, a change of shoes, and a rain mac; not a gaggle of kids, I know, but I'd be willing to have a go, and I'll probably have to in a couple of years.

Is it just that we've gotten too used to convenience?

ProudDUB

Ok, I've just stopped laughing hysterically at the idea of telling the mother of a newborn baby & a toddler to shove a couple of nappies into her handbag & leave it at that. What if she has a toddler with her too? The walk up from Heuston would be too long for a 2 year old. What do they sit on when they get there, the wet grass? Taking your dogs for a walk in the park is not the same thing as taking kids. And even if there were shops "all over the place" (which there are not, not the parts I go to anyway) to buy food and drink at, the cost of doing that sends the costs of a trip to the park up to about 40 quid if you are a family, which is something that you still have not addressed.

Your granny sounds like a saint, but I am sure if someone offered her & her gang of kids a lift up to the Park, she would have bitten their arm off at the offer.

But anyway, let's all get rid of our cars and go every where on the bus, or we'll all burn in hell for committing the unforgivable sin of wanting a bit of convenience. Happy now?

jack presley

monument wrote: »

For large amounts of people, safe cycle routes to the park would be a solution for children with bicycles but many of the same people who give out about changes to the park would give about changes to the quays etc.

Can you expand on what you mean by safe cycle routes? The road around Dublin are narrow enough as it is and it's even a struggle to have normal cycle lanes so I don't think it is feasible to have safe cycle lanes that would be wide enough and protected enough from city traffic. I wouldn't put a kid on a bike with stabilisers anywhere near our city streets

Even if they were possible, they wouldn't be practical for families who live even a half a mile from the park. It'd be like a Tour de France stage for a kid on his first bike cycling a half mile before he even gets to the park, all while trying to avoid getting knocked over by cyclists going at speed on their commute or whatever.

kylith

Did you miss the part where I said you could fit a lot in a good backpack? And have you never heard of a double buggy? I've been seeing lots of those around recently with a baby in the front part and an older child in the back. I really can't understand how anyone needs such a massive bag for a few nappies and some wipes that it'd be impossible to get it on a bus.

You'd think that before the advent of the car no woman was ever able to go anywhere. The fact is that we've made it a hassle for ourselves because of the attitude that 'sure you can just stick it in the car'. There are women all around the country bringing their (multiple) children around on buses, trams, and trains while they do their shopping because they don't have a car,while to listen to some people you'd think that it was a trek up Everest they were going for, rather than a couple of hours in the park.

jack presley

kylith wrote: »

Did you miss the part where I said you could fit a lot in a good backpack? And have you never heard of a double buggy? I've been seeing lots of those around recently with a baby in the front part and an older child in the back. I really can't understand how anyone needs such a massive bag for a few nappies and some wipes that it'd be impossible to get it on a bus.

You'd think that before the advent of the car no woman was ever able to go anywhere. The fact is that we've made it a hassle for ourselves because of the attitude that 'sure you can just stick it in the car'. There are women all around the country bringing their (multiple) children around on buses, trams, and trains while they do their shopping because they don't have a car,while to listen to some people you'd think that it was a trek up Everest they were going for, rather than a couple of hours in the park.

Before the car, I'd say a trip to the park for families not within walking distance was an event that was planned weeks in advance and not on the spur of the moment because it looks like its going to be a nice day. And I'm sure it's not just women who take their kids on buses or who do the shopping!

Comparing going to the park with doing the weekly shop isn't comparing like with like. Shopping is a necessity whereas going to the park is recreational.

athtrasna

Hub D15 wrote: »

This is a public road being denied to most of the public who are paying for it on the whim of unelected park staff.

It's not a public road, it's a park. It does not come under the remit of the NRA nor is it maintained by them. Traffic is given access to the Park at the discretion of the OPW.

nudger

Was out for a cycle yesterday morning around 11am, out of curiosity to see who or what were using the closed stretch of the park cycled down the main road.
I met a couple of locals out for a walk but that was it, until I got down around the Phoenix monument where a little fecker on a green mini scrambler was practising his wheelies on the main road watched but his huddie mates.
You would think if they are going to close the main road that they would do something with it, party, festival, sports day, something instead of a useless closure.

monument

nudger wrote: »

Was out for a cycle yesterday morning around 11am, out of curiosity to see who or what were using the closed stretch of the park cycled down the main road.
I met a couple of locals out for a walk but that was it, until I got down around the Phoenix monument where a little fecker on a green mini scrambler was practising his wheelies on the main road watched but his huddie mates.
You would think if they are going to close the main road that they would do something with it, party, festival, sports day, something instead of a useless closure.

Err... There was a cargo bike event on it yesterday and even if they were not set up at 11am, the section was busy with event goers and passers by for a good chunk of the day.

amtc

lxflyer wrote: »

But under this measure, this section of road is only being closed on Saturdays and Sundays.



That does not significantly impact on anyone's commute.

Journet was a Thursday and a Friday...

LXFlyer

nudger wrote: »

Was out for a cycle yesterday morning around 11am, out of curiosity to see who or what were using the closed stretch of the park cycled down the main road.
I met a couple of locals out for a walk but that was it, until I got down around the Phoenix monument where a little fecker on a green mini scrambler was practising his wheelies on the main road watched but his huddie mates.
You would think if they are going to close the main road that they would do something with it, party, festival, sports day, something instead of a useless closure.

Lets be honest Sunday mornings tend to be quiet times everywhere.

I very much doubt that it was quiet during the afternoon.

LXFlyer

amtc wrote: »

Journet was a Thursday and a Friday...

I'm referring to the current measure.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Lets be honest Sunday mornings tend to be quiet times everywhere.

I very much doubt that it was quiet during the afternoon.

You're right, it was not. There was an event on from 12.30pm.

L5

From my experience, the closed section has very few people using it. People are lazy, and like to park close to where they're going to walk etc.

L5

monument wrote: »

You're right, it was not. There was an event on from 12.30pm.

That is the first event that I have seen on that closed section all summer. Every other weekend the closed section is deserted.

Hub D15

Having now read the public consultation document re this Road Closure (link posted start of this thread by another user) it is to say the least not entirely objective. Quotes from the OPW document...

“The use of Chesterfield Avenue as a busy arterial traffic route has long conflicted with this objective.”

“In effect, the use of Chesterfield Avenue is not consistent with its setting and designation. The Phoenix Park Transportation Study completed in 2006 reflected this long term objective of reducing the environmental impact of traffic travelling through the Phoenix Park.”

“It was noted by Park Management that the consistency of the arrangements on Chesterfield Avenue greatly simplified the process of making the necessary arrangements for closures, thereby reducing the administrative burden on both the OPW and An Garda Siochána.”

“In fact the very fact that closures have continued throughout the year (with 38 closures reported) suggests that traffic impacts have been wholly manageable. On this basis, there is no traffic - related rationale for abandoning the current proposal for weekend closures on Chesterfield Avenue.”

“Table of Contents
1.0
Overview
2.0
2012: A Year in Review
3.0
Review of the Existing Transport Environment
4.0
Traffic Impact Assessment of Closure
5.0
The Case for Weekend Closures”

“The Plan sets out a number of ‘Strategic Objectives’, the following of which are considered to be most relevant:
8. To manage the levels of traffic within the Phoenix Park and reduce through
Traffic”

“the burden on the OPW to prepare and disseminate
information on the details of each closure was reduced, as the
seasonal closure allowed a single bulletin to be in force throughout
the full duration from April to September.”

“the quiet setting of Chesterfield Avenue during the weekend period became
an attraction in itself, and led to an increase in the concentration of
roller - blading, walking and cycling.”

“In relation to negative feedback, it was noted that many of the
issues raised related to the method of implementation as opposed
to the closure itself, and which have been considered as part of the
recommendations set out in Section 4 of this report.”

“This volume of traffic on Chesterfield Avenue is clearly inconsistent with its setting within a Park.”

“Examining the alternative routes within the Park, the maximum diversion for traffic travelling through the Park is approximately 800m, equating to an additional travel time of approximately 2 minutes. This is not deemed to be a significant impact in the context of journeys to and from the City Centre from the north - western fringes of the metropolitan area.”

“there is no traffic - related rationale for abandoning the current
proposal for weekend closures on Chesterfield Avenue.”

“The benefit of a formalised arrangement regarding the closure of Chesterfield Avenue will be the ability to provide a consistent and clear message on seasonal arrangements via the various methods of communication. This will reduce the burden on Park staff to provide constant information feeds for each closure.”

monument

Hub D15 wrote: »

Having now read the public consultation document re this Road Closure (link posted start of this thread by another user) it is to say the least not entirely objective. Quotes from the OPW document...

What part of it do you have a problem with?

There's lots of facts and all the opinion seems to follow OPW policy -- backed by the minister -- as set out in the park's management plan.

donaghs

monument wrote: »

What part of it do you have a problem with?

There's lots of facts and all the opinion seems to follow OPW policy -- backed by the minister -- as set out in the park's management plan.

"backed by the minister"

Oohh! a Minister! Well, then that this issue settled then?
Considering how many previous Irish ministers form a rogues gallery, forgive me for not being impressed by the title.

I don't really get your point here, except that you always back the OPW's position.

The poster was saying was just saying that it doesnt appear objective. It's marshalling its facts to support a particular thesis/aim. And making light of or ignoring the counter-arguements.

“In fact the very fact that closures have continued throughout the year (with 38 closures reported) suggests that traffic impacts have been wholly manageable. On this basis, there is no traffic - related rationale for abandoning the current proposal for weekend closures on Chesterfield Avenue.”
People adapt if they have no choice. Just like the long road works to widen the M50 that resulted in lane closures. Tymon Park in Tallaght would certainly benefit from closing the M50!

monument

donaghs wrote: »

"backed by the minister"

Oohh! a Minister! Well, then that this issue settled then?
Considering how many previous Irish ministers form a rogues gallery, forgive me for not being impressed by the title.

I don't really get your point here, except that you always back the OPW's position.

Read the thread: The minister point was included because first time OPW policy was mentioned it said these were all unelected people etc.

My main point was that they were just following their own policy!

donaghs wrote: »

The poster was saying was just saying that it doesnt appear objective. It's marshalling its facts to support a particular thesis/aim. And making light of or ignoring the counter-arguements.

Shocker! Somebody is using facts to back their case. Nasty facts. Evil facts.

The problem is he was not saying how it was not objective. Making such claims without explaining why is pointless.

donaghs wrote: »

“In fact the very fact that closures have continued throughout the year (with 38 closures reported) suggests that traffic impacts have been wholly manageable. On this basis, there is no traffic - related rationale for abandoning the current proposal for weekend closures on Chesterfield Avenue.”
People adapt if they have no choice. Just like the long road works to widen the M50 that resulted in lane closures. Tymon Park in Tallaght would certainly benefit from closing the M50!

There's zero practical difference between
what you're saying and what the OPW said.

reprazant

I don't get what people are moaning about. You can still drive around the park, you just need to take the slightly longer route around the back of the zoo adding about 5 minutes onto your journey. It is only one small section of the road that is closed. There is still lots of parking everywhere are around the park.

Are people really complaining about an extra 5, maybe 10 minutes at a max, journey time? And only on the weekend at that.

drquirky

As someone who runs in the Phoenix Park every single day- anything that reduces the amount of traffic is excellent news imo- its a park (and an amazing one at that) not a motorway or a car park... TBH most people could use a bit more exercise anyways....

jack presley

drquirky wrote: »

As someone who runs in the Phoenix Park every single day- anything that reduces the amount of traffic is excellent news imo- its a park (and an amazing one at that) not a motorway or a car park... TBH most people could use a bit more exercise anyways....

So you run on the roads? I run a few times a week in the park and never have to stop at a road crossing for more than 10 seconds and even that long is rare.

Apart from the people who live in close proximity to the park, I'd say the majority of people who run in the park or walk their dogs etc. actually drive to it. I know I do and up on the stretch on chesterfield avenue near Castleknock gate, it's quite common to see joggers/walkers getting back into their cars.

I agree with you on the park being excellent!

drquirky

jack presley wrote: »

So you run on the roads?

Nope. I do however value the fresh air the park provides and think its pretty ridiculous that Dublin's best green space essentially becomes a national road during rush hour on weekdays and almost every weekend. I prefer not to suck car fumes from idling engines.

That being said, I understand the need for parking for users of the park... I'd be happy to see additional spaces open up around Infirmary road, the NCR and Ashtown to counter the loss of any parking on Chesterfield. I also totally support the idea of a shuttle.

reprazant

There is lots of parking around the park other than on Chesterfield Avenue though.

Also, afair, last weekend only the part between the Aras roundabout and the Castleknock roundabout was closed. The rest of Chesterfield Avenue was open.

Hub D15

Stating that it is easier for OPW staff to close it every weekend is not a valid reason to close a major public road..."This will reduce the burden on Park staff to provide constant information feeds for each closure.”

It doesn't seem like an open minded review if the group carrying it out has already decided that “The use of Chesterfield Avenue as a busy arterial traffic route has long conflicted with this objective.”

Their document includes a Case for Weekend Closures but no case against.

It is also states that the Gardai are in favour of closing the road, but they have the largest car park in the phoenix park.

fly_agaric

Why don't opw slap a toll it or something? If there was some way they could get a few shillings for the central govt from the road I'm sure they'd be only too glad to keep it open and worries about settings and designations etc would disappear. :pac:

jack presley

reprazant wrote: »

There is lots of parking around the park other than on Chesterfield Avenue though.

One of the routes I run most often is up and down the length of Chesterfield Avenue. Therefore parking along it makes the most sense. There may be "lots of parking" elsewhere but if Chesterfield Avenue is ever closed to private cars and park users are forced to park in the actual car parks, they are going to run out of spaces pretty quickly, especially during the Summer on nice days.

I can just see people with families heading to the zoo for the day jumping for joy with having to park up in the Papal Cross car park (1.8km) or over in the football grounds (also around 1.8km) when the relatively small car park that was built a few years back fills up. Lets hope there aren't too many matches on at that time as the teams will need to park there too.

The backroads, especially by the Garda headquarters and the Civil Defence would fill up with cars as well and as the rest of the roads are narrower with no hard shoulder markings, it would also be a lot more dangerous for everyone, be they motorists, pedestrians or cyclists.

jack presley

fly_agaric wrote: »

Why don't opw slap a toll it or something? If there was some way they could get a few shillings for the central govt from the road I'm sure they'd be only too glad to keep it open and worries about settings and designations etc would disappear. :pac:

Set up costs would make that prohibitive for a start. Then there's the argument that it's a public park, why should people have to pay to use it. You could argue that you could toll commuter only but not park users but how would that be enforced? What happens if you're a commuter and a user? Do you have to take a ticket as you enter and if you're there more than an hour, you don't pay? Again, this would be very hard to set up and would face an enormous amount of opposition. it would also add to delays getting into the park. Business in the park (i.e. the zoo, wouldn't go for tolling either I don't think)

And it goes back to the old argument, the reason people use it as a commuter route is because there is a substandard public transport system in Dublin (which is getting worse not better over the past few years). The report mentions London and Central Park shutting to traffic but they both have undergrounds and 'probably' better bus services (don't know for sure about that one!)