Why can't teams approach the haka?

sydthebeat

I still get goose pimples and standing hairs watching that. Its a game il never forget. I wasnt around when they won back in the 70's. They played the ask blacks of the park and as far as I'm concerned they won that match

.ak

I love the Haka. I don't care if it's a 'Hollywood', made up gimmick, it's amazing...

But I HATE the way people are so precious about it.

The comments from the commentators in the OP's video in particular really irk me. For example, they say that the way the BB's are lining up to offer a challenge, and then when Ireland line up to offer a challenge of their own then all of a sudden there's no need for it. Absolute precious, thin skinned tripe. Don't care what Starmer's done for the game his opinion is still bitter there and as a commentator he should've been more even handed and not so prissy about it.

'Unworthy' was one of the words he associated with Ireland.

Have to say if I was playing the ABs tomorrow and was told I couldn't do my own thing I'd spend my time warming up down the other end of the field. What's the point of one team being allowed to lay down a challenge and the others can't? (within the spirit of the game, all they did was walk towards them)

who_me

Clareman wrote: »

I think the Haka is great but it can be a bit precious at times, when Wales asked to be able to sing a response the Kiwis decided to do it in the dressing room. Rugby is a game based on respect, from respecting the ref to your opponents, if the Haka is to be respected, so be it. I agree with teams being kept to their own halves though, it'd just get silly having players walking up to each other.

I think Ireland's response a couple of years ago of going over to take off their tracksuits and stuff while the crowd sang The Fields was brilliant.

The "Munster Haka" has to be the most amazing piece of sporting theatre I've ever had the pleasure of witnessing in person.

Absolutely, but respect goes two ways. For instance, when the All Blacks demanded that that no song could be sung after the Haka, they showed zero respect for the opposition and their traditions. It's a case of "respect our culture, **** yours". Let them do what they like, as hosts, in New Zealand. When they're visiting another nation, the hosts decide.

On the "Maka".. Jesus. I know I've said this before, but usually at a game the atmosphere builds up slowly waiting for others around to join in. When that kicked off, everyone just jumped to their feet and let out a continuous primal scream until it was done. Then when the (NZ) Haka started, eerie silence. If the game had been cancelled at that point, I'd still have gone home happy. :P

CatFromHue

toomevara wrote: »

Christ, are you kidding me! Stick two New Zealanders, hell sometimes they'll even go solo, in a room, give em some beer and an audience (anyone'll do, a bored cat, a dog, a goldfish) and at some point they'll try to do the Haka. Lived in London for a fair few years and hardly a barbecue/ drinking session, birthday or wedding went by without some Kiwis trying to do the bleedin' thing..utterly, utterly tedious...

btw best user name I've seen in a while!

Looooooow lie De Fields of Atheeeenry............:pac:

Niallof9

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Siva Tau is awesome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1aTqIkruEw

You must be blind (& deaf) if you think that is more visually aggressive. No chance.

fishook

haka is one of my favourite things in rugby, must alwys be kept

thomond2006

Niallof9 wrote: »

You must be blind (& deaf) if you think that is more visually aggressive. No chance.

Did I say it was more visually aggressive? Maybe check your eyesight matey.

thomond2006

cityman 18 wrote: »

Amazing stuff. what do people think Ireland should do when facing the Haka in November? I think it should be met with silence like the Munster supporters that night.

It's obvious and full credit goes to phatpiggins for suggesting it ages ago.

"It has to be Riverdance. Michael Flatley can burst out from under the ground and kick Richie McCaw in the face"

Judgement Day

Jeez, the bleeding Haka thread has become a real hardy annual. Perhaps when other teams start beating the All Blacks on a regular basis there will be less bitching over it. If it's not Richie McCaw cheating, or biased refereeing, it's the God damn Haka that's to blame for everybody losing. I saw a chink of light for France and, indeed, Ireland (this November) after the 1st test but I'm delighted to say that the door is now firmly slammed shut again - so roll on the Rugby Championship and the European Tour.

trouttrout

Judgement Day wrote: »

Jeez, the bleeding Haka thread has become a real hardy annual. Perhaps when other teams start beating the All Blacks on a regular basis there will be less bitching over it. If it's not Richie McCaw cheating, or biased refereeing, it's the God damn Haka that's to blame for everybody losing. I saw a chink of light for France and, indeed, Ireland (this November) after the 1st test but I'm delighted to say that the door is now firmly slammed shut again - so roll on the Rugby Championship and the European Tour.

Did you even read any of the comments in the thread? Everyone is basically saying they like the Haka

Is anyone here blaming the Haka for their teams losing?

People are rightly pointing out the ridiculous preciousness that surrounds the oppositions reaction to it, and rightly so, why should the AB's be allowed a pre match routine and the opposition be forced to watch it

Nice dash of that famous Kiwi arrogance too in the above post

OldRio

trouttrout wrote: »

Did you even read any of the comments in the thread? Everyone is basically saying they like the Haka

Is anyone here blaming the Haka for their teams losing?

People are rightly pointing out the ridiculous preciousness that surrounds the oppositions reaction to it, and rightly so, why should the AB's be allowed a pre match routine and the opposition be forced to watch it

Nice dash of that famous Kiwi arrogance too in the above post

Kiwi ?

He wishes

titan18

Sipi Tau is the best

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zbD_Bbb81s

Depp

say what you like about the haka but i look forward to seeing pacific nations face off against each other or new zealand, seeing the two wardances in opposition to each other is something else

.ak

Judgement Day wrote: »

Jeez, the bleeding Haka thread has become a real hardy annual. Perhaps when other teams start beating the All Blacks on a regular basis there will be less bitching over it. If it's not Richie McCaw cheating, or biased refereeing, it's the God damn Haka that's to blame for everybody losing. I saw a chink of light for France and, indeed, Ireland (this November) after the 1st test but I'm delighted to say that the door is now firmly slammed shut again - so roll on the Rugby Championship and the European Tour.

What does any of this have to do with the Haka JD? :P

prospect

Depp wrote: »

say what you like about the haka but i look forward to seeing pacific nations face off against each other or new zealand, seeing the two wardances in opposition to each other is something else

Indeed, because in that situation the opposition are allowed to respond.

I think the point of this thread is that most other opposition are not allowed to respond. Worse than that, they are forced to stand and watch.

Actually, are they obliged to stand?

razorblunt

Is the throat slitting gesture still allowed on one of their versions?

I love seeing the Haka and if I were a player I would love standing against that, be that as it may, I'd hate for the blazers to dictate what I can and can't do. If it's on neutral ground or you're at home then you should be able to do what you want (within limits i.e. no Cocckerill and Anderson approaches), stick to your own half, take extra time to take off gear etc.

Spudmonkey

ambid wrote: »

Check out the 1973 version - they've done some work on the choreography since then!

Clap handies, clap handies.....

Judgement Day

White folk ain't got no rythm!

Sabre0001

It's funny that people only want to respond / do something about the AB haka...

JJJJNR

Did they win the game.

Hunterbiker

+ 1 for the Tongan one

Mal-Adjusted

razorblunt wrote: »

Is the throat slitting gesture still allowed on one of their versions?

Didn't you hear? It's really a symbol for drawing air into your lungs, totally not a throat-slit. For realsies :rolleyes:

Losty Dublin

titan18 wrote: »

Sipi Tau is the best

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zbD_Bbb81s

Compared to it the Haka looks and sounds like Pat-a-Cake Pat-a-Cake

corny

I've no problem with NZ & the South Sea Islanders dancing. I have a problem with the IRB dictating what the opposition should do and where they should stand. Do it for the crowd.

dingbat

I've always said that if one team wants to do a dance to intimidate the opposition then those opponents should be allowed to do whatever they want short as long as they stay in their own half.

Klunk_NZ

ambid wrote: »

Willie Anderson. Legend.

How did the test end up? :P

Challenging the Haka is fine, we loved the Arrowhead France did. I think you will even find NZ commentator saying "I bet the IRB is going to do something stupid like fining them"

Klunk_NZ

toomevara wrote: »

Anyone remember when the AB's threw their toys out of the pram against the Welsh and did their jig in the dressing room at the Millennium? Thus disrespecting Wales and, more importantly, the thousands who turned up to see them? I may be wrong but I don't remember any sanctions being imposed on them afterwards.

I can't disagree with you more.

I'd stop only just short of calling you an idiot. The AB's are well within their rights to do whatever the hell they like in their dressing room. Then go out onto the field and make them pay to the tune of 40-3.

Buer

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

I can't disagree with you more.

I'd stop only just short of calling you an idiot. The AB's are well within their rights to do whatever the hell they like in their dressing room. Then go out onto the field and make them pay to the tune of 40-3.

They're absolutely entitled to do what they want. That doesn't mean their actions didn't come across as extremely petty and spoiled. The WRU wanted to respond to the haka with a song which would have been a great spectacle. NZ refused to do the haka publicly because of this. Not much more to it.

Klunk_NZ

Buer wrote: »

They're absolutely entitled to do what they want. That doesn't mean their actions didn't come across as extremely petty and spoiled. The WRU wanted to respond to the haka with a song which would have been a great spectacle. NZ refused to do the haka publicly because of this. Not much more to it.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10412657

The WRU tried to throw their weight around and change the order of proceedings. For over 100 years the Haka has followed the anthems. It backfired on them as the fans were denied a Haka and it seemed to fire up the AB's even more in a fiery 45-10 (correction from my 40-3 estimate) hiding.

PaulyBolger

this is one of my favorites

Klunk_NZ

PaulyBolger wrote: »

this is one of my favorites

Albeit rugby league, that was epic

Podge_irl

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

The WRU tried to throw their weight around and change the order of proceedings. For over 100 years the Haka has followed the anthems. It backfired on them as the fans were denied a Haka and it seemed to fire up the AB's even more in a fiery 45-10 (correction from my 40-3 estimate) hiding.

They tried to dictate the order of proceedings in their own stadium. I think that's perfectly reasonable.

Klunk_NZ

Podge_irl wrote: »

They tried to dictate the order of proceedings in their own stadium. I think that's perfectly reasonable.

And whilst that may be the case, the All Blacks as brand value is worth more money then any other international team touring your country. The Haka is part of what their fans want to see, the Welsh attempt to dictate the proceedings backfired on their own fans (not the viewers on TV).

It was the best possible move by the AB's no-one has tried to do it since.

Buer

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10412657

The WRU tried to throw their weight around and change the order of proceedings. For over 100 years the Haka has followed the anthems. It backfired on them as the fans were denied a Haka and it seemed to fire up the AB's even more in a fiery 45-10 (correction from my 40-3 estimate) hiding.

I know why it took place. Hansen's comments are incorrect also. The Welsh wanted to sing Bread of Heaven afterwards not their anthem. That's sung traditionally in Wales after the anthems too.

NZ can claim tradition all they like. Everyone knows the haka was a bit of a spoof years ago until television and marketing changed that.

I love the haka. It's a wonderful spectacle and the encounters between NZ and France have been the single most intense pieces of sporting pageantry I've attended. The incident in the Mill Stad though was a debacle and NZ came off terribly. They claim the haka is a challenge put down to the opposition. A team wants to respond to it with their own piece of theatre and they completely throw the toys out of the pram. It took preciousness to new heights in the eyes of almost everyone outside of NZ.

Buer

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

And whilst that may be the case, the All Blacks as brand value is worth more money then any other international team touring your country. The Haka is part of what their fans want to see, the Welsh attempt to dictate the proceedings backfired on their own fans (not the viewers on TV).

It was the best possible move by the AB's no-one has tried to do it since.

And you hit the nail on the head there in your first sentence. It's money. NZ are a huge draw for the home unions and pay big money to have them play. It's a guaranteed sell out for the union. NZ call the shots and teams cannot afford to upset them.

irishbucsfan

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

And whilst that may be the case, the All Blacks as brand value is worth more money then any other international team touring your country. The Haka is part of what their fans want to see, the Welsh attempt to dictate the proceedings backfired on their own fans (not the viewers on TV).

It was the best possible move by the AB's no-one has tried to do it since.

Ah right, so it's all about the money is it?

the_syco

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah right, so it's all about the money is it?

And thus them getting away with a couple of fouls each game is fairly suspect!

toomevara

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

I'd stop only just short of calling you an idiot. .

Ho-Ho, heavens-to-betsy sirrah!!! ! do believe you have insulted my honour!! I demand satisfaction...perhaps a haka-off at the walkabout of your choice? I do an excellent celtic-tinged interpretation...and please, please never,ever stop short on my account my old kiwi-fruit..let her rip!!!

jordainius

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10412657

The WRU tried to throw their weight around and change the order of proceedings. For over 100 years the Haka has followed the anthems. It backfired on them as the fans were denied a Haka and it seemed to fire up the AB's even more in a fiery 45-10 (correction from my 40-3 estimate) hiding.

The WRU are entitled to do whatever they want at their home venue, and the fans weren't denied anything, they went there to see a game of rugby, not a bit of shouting and dancing beforehand.

And the suggestion that the haka and how the opposition respond to it has an impact on the result of the game is absolute nonsense, the NZ players are hardly that precious... "We're going to try harder now because they didn't stand back and silently observe the haka"

It won't make NZ play any better, it might piss them off and make a few of them lose their cool, and do something like perhaps commit grievous bodily harm on say someone who had the temerity to pick up a bit of grass and throw it in the air afterwards, but it is just plain stupid to suggest that the haka will make a difference to the result of the game.

"We beat Wales 45-10 that day because of the disrepsect to our haka, good thing that happened or we would only have won 33-25."

Judgement Day

the_syco wrote: »

And thus them getting away with a couple of fouls each game is fairly suspect!

Oh dear....:rolleyes:

Klunk_NZ

Buer wrote: »

I know why it took place. Hansen's comments are incorrect also. The Welsh wanted to sing Bread of Heaven afterwards not their anthem. That's sung traditionally in Wales after the anthems too.

NZ can claim tradition all they like. Everyone knows the haka was a bit of a spoof years ago until television and marketing changed that.

I love the haka. It's a wonderful spectacle and the encounters between NZ and France have been the single most intense pieces of sporting pageantry I've attended. The incident in the Mill Stad though was a debacle and NZ came off terribly. They claim the haka is a challenge put down to the opposition. A team wants to respond to it with their own piece of theatre and they completely throw the toys out of the pram. It took preciousness to new heights in the eyes of almost everyone outside of NZ.

I'll have to differ on that, if we let one country change the order of the pre-match everyone will want to do it. Throwing our weight around once and scaring everyone off seems alot easier. We aren't as precious about the Haka as media would have you believe. I love the challenges....... the NZRFU paid the fine the French got for challenging it. The commentator in the OP is a moron.

irishbucsfan

There was absolutely no reason that the Welsh lads shouldn't have sang bread of heaven after the Haka.

If they hadn't told anyone and just done it, I think it would probably have gone down as one of the best challenges to a haka to date. But unfortunately I guess they gave the kiwis a little too much credit and caused a tantrum.

Klunk_NZ

In 2005, the All Blacks agreed to a request from the Welsh Rugby Union to repeat the sequence of events from the original match a century before in 1905. This involved the All Blacks performing the haka after "God Defend New Zealand" and before "Hen Wlad fy Nhadau". For the November 2006 test, the Welsh Rugby Union demanded a repeat of this sequence. The All Blacks refused, and instead chose to perform the haka in their changing room before the match. All Blacks captain Richie McCaw defended the decision by stating that the haka was "integral to New Zealand culture and the All Blacks' heritage" and "if the other team wants to mess around, we'll just do the haka in the shed".The crowd reacted negatively to the lack of the haka and then being shown brief footage of the haka on the screens at the Millennium Stadium.

The Haka goes after the anthems.....

prospect

Here is what I don't understand regarding this supposed 'tradition' or 'heritage'.

The haka has a few meanings, sometimes forms are apparently welcome or celebratory dances.
Some forms are war dances, their purpose was to intimidate the 'opposition', and this is what the Rugby team do.

They do this because in their culture they always did this, which is fine.

But, in their traditional war dancing and culture, did they have any control on what their opposition did. Did they have any way of controlling their opposition and forcing them to behave a particular way. I doubt it.

So this is really only 50% traditional because 50% of the people are being forced to act a particular way.


I'd stress again, I enjoy watching the Haka and have no issue with it being performed, throat slitting and all. But I fail to see why the opposition cannot spend those few minutes warming up, practice kicking & passing or whatever else they wish to do.

Podge_irl

The crowd reacted negatively to the ABs doing the Haka in the changing room and their ire was directed at the ABs not the WRU. Because they acted like children.

The Haka simply wasn't as integral to the ABs as it is now until well into the 70s, which somewhat dampens the arguments about it being historic. I also fail to see how it is an affront to the ABs heritage and culture to respond to the bloody challenge.

The Haka in its current form and the control over the reaction to it is a victory of marketing and pomp over substance.

I also get weary, when teams respond to it in various manners (such as Wales refusing to move first) and are subsequently beaten, the defeat is ascribed to the "disrespect" shown towards the Haka. As if NZ wouldn't have won anyway.

Hagz

Was there any footage of the haka in the dressing room. Must have been funny to watch.

The beginning of this clip shows the Welsh anthem being sung after the haka. I don't see why this ins't the done thing. It's their stadium/home, if they want to sing the anthem after the haka, then they should be allowed to do so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsyfrmDJ1Pk

toomevara

Hagz wrote: »

Was there any footage of the haka in the dressing room. Must have been funny to watch.

It was broadcast live from the dressing room at the time. I remember watching it open-mouthed with astonishment...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6187320.stm

Klunk_NZ

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

I'll have to differ on that, if we let one country change the order of the pre-match everyone will want to do it.

er... that's exactly what we have done.

The difference is the "one country" in question is New Zealand.

fitz

I love the Haka (though the AB's version looks fairly pansy now compared to a Maori one I saw while in NZ for the RWC), and I wouldn't want to see it scrapped.
I vehemently disagree with the enforced "respect" without a right of response. Enforced respect isn't really respect, it's just following the rules.
And if it's a challenge, it shouldn't be a one way thing. The tradition thing is rubbish. The AB's didn't always do the Haka pre-game, it's relatively recent.
All traditions start somewhere. If the Welsh want to establish a tradition of singing in response to the Haka, why not?

If one team gets to do something that has to be observed by the opposition, then it's arrogant in the extreme of anyone to suggest that there shouldn't be the same respect and opportunity afforded to respond.
It's just saying "you're not important enough for us to let you have your own pre-game ritual."

irishbucsfan

How about...

Wales or anyone else are allowed to sing their anthem at any time they like, providing they get Katherine Jenkins to do it?