Lions vs Brumbies Lineup

phog

decisions wrote: »

Williams is only there to hold tackle bags, he isn't going to play I hope, with 36, Wade ect there is no need for him to be there.

He's on the team sheet.

decisions

phog wrote: »

He's on the team sheet.

Only spotted that later, I only had a quick glance at it.

GiftofGab

Couldn't all this be avoided if Gatland bought 3 fly halves? He could have played Hogg on the wing. I know its not his usual position but either if fly half. I could have filled in just for one game.

dub_skav

mhtc wrote: »

Just to throw it out there, in 2001 Jason Robinson was just in his 4th test before exploding onto the scene against Australia.

Not saying everyone would the the same impact as he did, but it's not all about experience; if you're good enough you're experienced enough

But Robinson was an experienced league player. I get what you're saying but he was not quite an out and out Bolter

Duggys Housemate

Gatland doesn't want to play a first team here with potential injuries. All about Saturday.

Stev_o

ID say this will be the first Lions loss. Having Barrit there is more of a joke then Williams imo.

willit

This selection makes a bit of a joke of the Lions IMHO. It's not that Barritt, Twelvetrees, Wade & Williams have been called up because the Lions have lost 4 players in those positions, they've been called up in case the test players might get an injury. They're professional rugby players for f*#k sake, I think it's embarrassing. And Shane Williams, I'm still waiting to be told this is a joke. The guy retired from rugby, twice already. What must the likes of Tim Visser or Chris Ashton be thinking? Of course I'll be shouting for the Lions but part of me will feel sorry for the likes of Rory Best who must have thought he seriously had a shout for the test team having been called up only to now be taking the field with 4 more call ups, one of whom is retired. Very disappointed.

twinytwo

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Gatland doesn't want to play a first team here with potential injuries. All about Saturday.

then why did gatty bring 2 OH's??? its all well and good for him to say hogg can play 10, not agaisnt the aussies he cant... they will make **** of him all day. If farrell gets injured on tuesday as much as i hate the guy the lions are in a very awkward situation

Buer

Can it just be clarified, once and for all, that Shane Williams is not retired from rugby and is still playing professionally in Japan. He's there for one game. He was already en route to Australia.

I don't agree particularly with his call up but there's been a lot of misinformation floating around regarding this.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

Can it just be clarified, once and for all, that Shane Williams is not retired from rugby and is still playing professionally in Japan. He's there for one game. He was already en route to Australia.

I don't agree particularly with his call up but there's been a lot of misinformation floating around regarding this.

Proof: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21625402

He'll be playing another season in Japan, starting at the end of 2013.

phog

I don't agree with how Williams is being called up/used but he's there now so G'wan the Lions, here's hoping for another win in the lead up to the first Test.

CIARAN_BOYLE

twinytwo wrote: »

then why did gatty bring 2 OH's??? its all well and good for him to say hogg can play 10, not agaisnt the aussies he cant... they will make **** of him all day. If farrell gets injured on tuesday as much as i hate the guy the lions are in a very awkward situation

Gatland has complained about the squad size for the Lions, like he was constrained against picking a bigger squad. Have a feeling that if he could have picked a 45 man squad he would have.

HigginsJ

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Gatland has complained about the squad size for the Lions, like he was constrained against picking a bigger squad. Have a feeling that if he could have picked a 45 man squad he would have.

After the farce in '05 I think it won't ever happen that a Lions squad is that big again. Injuries will always occur but I think it's better to call guys up when needed. It's better for building squad morale & unity

ColmH81

HigginsJ wrote: »

After the farce in '05 I think it won't ever happen that a Lions squad is that big again. Injuries will always occur but I think it's better to call guys up when needed. It's better for building squad morale & unity

Seems to be the way he's doing it..

PhatPiggins

I'm going to come out and say it. I m delighted for Williams. One of my all time favourites.

Cheer up boys your mightn't like how he was selected but the guy has retired 136 times and scored a try everytime.

Shane Williams anytime try scorer = banker

ColmH81

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I'm going to come out and say it. I m delighted for Williams. One of my all time favourites.

Cheer up boys your mightn't like how he was selected but the guy has retired 136 times and scored a try everytime.

Shane Williams anytime try scorer = banker

There's no doubting his quality.. I hope he (still) has what's needed...

OnTheCouch

Even though I like S. Williams and hope he does well on Tuesday, there is something slightly farcical about the whole situation. It leaves the whole party open to ridicule IMHO.

I mean if Gatland needed emergency replacements who were already in the country, surely Andy Farrell could have filled in at centre to cover for the injuries in that position this week? After all, he hasn't stopped playing that long, the opposition isn't the best, he's a big strong lad and it could be an opportunity for the first father-son combo to appear together for the Lions.

Well, no, I jest...but the Williams situation isn't a million miles away from such a scenario I feel.

And what if Shane does really well this week and scores a hat-trick? Unlikely, but certainly not impossible with his past record. Surely Gatland wouldn't go then 'Thanks for that Shane, see you round.' Or would he?

GiftofGab

Buer wrote: »

Can it just be clarified, once and for all, that Shane Williams is not retired from rugby and is still playing professionally in Japan. He's there for one game. He was already en route to Australia.

I don't agree particularly with his call up but there's been a lot of misinformation floating around regarding this.

Did you see the documentary of Shane Williams playing in Japan? I think its available on youtube. He was playing for a team that wasn't in the top league. There was about 50 people watching the match.

.ak

Don't think I've ever hoped to see SOB taken off at HT/50m before...

Lightbulb Sun

Blackheath wrote: »

It's a cause of anybody but chris Ashton

What's the deal with Ashton not being near the squad? Sorry I'm completely out of the loop here.

totallegend

OnTheCouch wrote: »

And what if Shane does really well this week and scores a hat-trick? Unlikely, but certainly not impossible with his past record. Surely Gatland wouldn't go then 'Thanks for that Shane, see you round.' Or would he?

Williams will 100% be sticking around.

The notion that Williams will play tomorrow and be packed off to Japan sort of overlooks the fact that the Lions still have to play Melbourne next Tuesday; I can't see Gatland rushing Bowe or North back for that one, so that still only leaves Kearney/Halfpenny/Zebo/Maitland/Cuthbert/Wade as back-three players. Three of those (probably Halfp/Maitland/Cuthbert) will have played the first test so we're then left with Kearney/Zebo/Wade; that leaves you with no back-three cover on the bench and it's all predicated on no-one else getting injured.

I'm sure Gatland won't want to use him but Williams will be in the tour party for the duration I'd say.

The smart thing to do would be to get Fergus McFadden on a plane. Centre and wing covered (not at test level but more than adequate for Melbourne), goal-kicking option, done.

Buer

Williams will be sticking around because he's contracted to Talksport to do commentary on the tests. He won't be involved with the Lions after tomorrow.

Leslie91

OnTheCouch wrote: »

Even though I like S. Williams and hope he does well on Tuesday, there is something slightly farcical about the whole situation. It leaves the whole party open to ridicule IMHO.

I mean if Gatland needed emergency replacements who were already in the country, surely Andy Farrell could have filled in at centre to cover for the injuries in that position this week? After all, he hasn't stopped playing that long, the opposition isn't the strongest, he's a big strong lad and it could be an opportunity for the first father-son combo to appear together for the Lions.

Well, no, I jest...but the Williams situation isn't a million miles away from such a scenario I feel.

And what if Shane does really well this week and scores a hat-trick? Unlikely, but certainly not impossible with his past record. Surely Gatland wouldn't go then 'Thanks for that Shane, see you round.' Or would he?

I agree with this. Is this calling in of Williams saying that North, Bowe, Cuthbert are all injured and cannot play tuesday?

What about one of Maitland and Zebo starting again?, I've no issue with Wade he deserves a call up.

I see Roberts is missing the 1st test thru injury. What's the story with Tuilagi?, are we looking at Jonathan Davies and BOD now. Who will man the wings come saturday?, could it be Maitland (God help us) and Zebo?, is that why they needed another winger?

phog

Buer wrote: »

Can it just be clarified, once and for all, that Shane Williams is not retired from rugby and is still playing professionally in Japan. He's there for one game. He was already en route to Australia.

I don't agree particularly with his call up but there's been a lot of misinformation floating around regarding this.

Can it also be clarified that Williams has retired from International rugby and plays in a Japanese league which is hardly the power house of rugby.

He was also not expected to be named so was hardly keeping to the usual fitness regime of a pro player that might be hopeful of a call-up or invovled in their countries summer tours, he was more likely in holiday mode so there may be a question mark over his fitness giving the short noice of the call-up.

Buer

phog wrote: »

Can it also be clarified that Williams has retired from International rugby and plays in a Japanese league which is hardly the power house of rugby.

He was also not expected to be named so was hardly keeping to the usual fitness regime of a pro player that might be hopeful of a call-up or invovled in their countries summer tours, he was more likely in holiday mode so there may be a question mark over his fitness giving the short noice of the call-up.

Grand, feel free to. My point was people are repeatedly saying he's retired and being called out from where he was which is entirely incorrect. Him being retired from international rugby really isn't relevant at all given players have been in the same boat before and toured despite having called time internationally.

He was training full time for a boxing event that took place a couple of weeks ago. He'll be lacking match sharpness but I would think his conditioning is pretty good as it always has been. I'm sure Gatland didn't give him a shout thinking "This lad has been on the sake and sushi non stop for the past 2 months."

It wouldn't have been my call at all to bring in SW but there's clearly a crisis for the wing spots at the moment and the first test around the corner. He's in Australia anyway, is in decent nick, has toured twice before and will be playing one single game. Whilst I get that people aren't fans of it, I don't get the widespread indignation given the circumstances.

OnTheCouch

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

What's the deal with Ashton not being near the squad? Sorry I'm completely out of the loop here.

If the squad were to be chosen simply on ability and ratio of international tries/appearances, Ashton would be a nailed-on choice, plus he would probably make the bench for the Tests as back-up winger.

However, things are not always as straightforward as this.

First of all, he is coming off a fairly mediocre season, even though he did improve a bit at the tail-end of it.

Secondly and probably most importantly, he certainly comes with baggage, for his antics on the pitch more than anything, exactly the sort of headlines the Australian journalists would lap up to put pressure on the squad. I would say it is more a desire on Gatland's part not to create an additional negative focus on the party, so he has hitherto preferred equally talented but considerably less 'box office' players such as Zebo and Wade to call up. Ashton would certainly attract headlines, no matter what way you want to look at it and an extra media circus is probably not what the coach wants at this pivotal time.

Although he did originally call up Hartley, an equally divisive figure, so there may be other reasons for Ashton not getting the call.

trouttrout

OnTheCouch wrote: »

If the squad were to be chosen simply on ability and ratio of international tries/appearances, Ashton would be a nailed-on choice, plus he would probably make the bench for the Tests as back-up winger.

However, things are not always as straightforward as this.

First of all, he is coming off a fairly mediocre season, even though he did improve a bit at the tail-end of it.

Secondly and probably most importantly, he certainly comes with baggage, for his antics on the pitch more than anything, exactly the sort of headlines the Australian journalists would lap up to put pressure on the squad. I would say it is more a desire on Gatland's part not to create an additional negative focus on the party, so he has hitherto preferred equally talented but considerably less 'box office' players such as Zebo and Wade to call up. Ashton would certainly attract headlines, no matter what way you want to look at it and an extra media circus is probably not what the coach wants at this pivotal time.

Although he did originally call up Hartley, an equally divisive figure, so there may be other reasons for Ashton not getting the call.

I don't think that's true at all. Ashton is a good finisher, but in terms of all round game he's a pretty average winger

irishbucsfan

trouttrout wrote: »

I don't think that's true at all. Ashton is a good finisher, but in terms of all round game he's a pretty average winger

Why? I this based on the 6 Nations again?

trouttrout

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why? I this based on the 6 Nations again?

Nope, poor enough kicker, poor enough defender imo

Picks a nice line every now and again but doesn't have the best footwork

Buer

Great runner and has a great work rate in defence. He's not the best one on one tackler around but incredible physicality around the rucks makes him like an extra flanker. His non-presence in Australia is based on a lot more than his rugby, I would think. Christian Wade can't tackle his dinner.

OnTheCouch

trouttrout wrote: »

I don't think that's true at all. Ashton is a good finisher, but in terms of all round game he's a pretty average winger

What you're saying is not entirely incorrect, but I think you have to think of it like a striker in football who may not have the best overall all-round game, but is a deadly finisher and for that reason alone should be in the team.

Maybe 'ability' was the wrong word to use, something like 'supremely efficient' may have been better to describe Ashton. Even though this looks like ridiculous hyperbole now, this is after all someone who after getting nine tries in his first nine caps or something like that was being described as a potential great of the game and it was said that Rory Underwood's 49 tries would be surpassed sooner rather than later. Again, extreme hype, but I do think he still remains a very clinical rugby player. After all, he was playing for England in rugby league as a teenager.

I would argue also that playing on the wing is not as difficult to learn as other positions in rugby, such as the back row. Which is why Ashton had relatively few problems making the transition from rugby league, as opposed to someone like Andy Farrell, who struggled a little bit, despite his legendary status in the 13-man game. Although it should be noted that Farrell was considerably older than Ashton also when he changed sports.

irishbucsfan

trouttrout wrote: »

Nope, poor enough kicker, poor enough defender imo

Picks a nice line every now and again but doesn't have the best footwork

He's a solid defender, not poor anyway. He also works hard, often showing up in midfield for Sarries to take ball on. He may be a poor kicker but that's not a requirement for a winger (North, Bowe would be the starting Lions!).

He's a very good player. He's just picked up a dodgy reputation.

shuffol

Would this mean that Williams joins the list of people that have been selected for 3 Lions tours or does this one not really count.

sydthebeat

just a though.. a few days ago the joke here was monye was joining the tour... doesnt seem to funny now does it

phog

Buer wrote: »

Grand, feel free to. My point was people are repeatedly saying he's retired and being called out from where he was which is entirely incorrect. Him being retired from international rugby really isn't relevant at all given players have been in the same boat before and toured despite having called time internationally.

He was training full time for a boxing event that took place a couple of weeks ago. He'll be lacking match sharpness but I would think his conditioning is pretty good as it always has been. I'm sure Gatland didn't give him a shout thinking "This lad has been on the sake and sushi non stop for the past 2 months."

It wouldn't have been my call at all to bring in SW but there's clearly a crisis for the wing spots at the moment and the first test around the corner. He's in Australia anyway, is in decent nick, has toured twice before and will be playing one single game. Whilst I get that people aren't fans of it, I don't get the widespread indignation given the circumstances.

How many of these retired internationals were playing in something like the Japanese league? Were they added to the initial squad if yes then their fitness wouldn't need to be questioned.

Wasn't the fight back at the end of May, if he took the summer off after that with only some light training then his sharpness/fitness could be a real issue, even if for 80mins of rugby.

Rightwing

So the brumbies +13, looks a decent bet to me.

totallegend

Should also point out that being parachuted into top-flight rugby after being in Japan for a while doesn't mean you can't hack it anymore...

sydthebeat

Rightwing wrote: »

So the brumbies +13, looks a decent bet to me.

Wow, definitely worth pop at that. I might put a few quid on a brumbie win and cover it with the spread.

Buer

phog wrote: »

How many of these retired internationals were playing in something like the Japanese league? Were they added to the initial squad if yes then their fitness wouldn't need to be questioned.

Wasn't the fight back at the end of May, if he took the summer off after that with only some light training then his sharpness/fitness could be a real issue, even if for 80mins of rugby.

You know it's now only mid June, right?

I don't agree with SW's call up but not at all on the basis that I think he's going to struggle for fitness. He has always been one of the most naturally fit and sharp wingers in the world. I'd be more concerned with Christian Wade arriving in camp on Monday and starting a game on Tuesday with a 13 hour time difference after a 15 hour flight.

Bridge93

Williams will be fine, Zebo will get about 30 mins so he only need to last 50. You don't become that unfit in a month and a bit.

phog

totallegend wrote: »

Should also point out that being parachuted into top-flight rugby after being in Japan for a while doesn't mean you can't hack it anymore...

You're not seriously comparing the two? One is parachuting in for ONE game while the other was bought in for the knockout games, with some lead in to the actual games.

Buer wrote: »

You know it's now only mid June, right?

I don't agree with SW's call up but not at all on the basis that I think he's going to struggle for fitness. He has always been one of the most naturally fit and sharp wingers in the world. I'd be more concerned with Christian Wade arriving in camp on Monday and starting a game on Tuesday with a 13 hour time difference after a 15 hour flight.

Do you think his training regime for boxing would be in anyway different to that of rugby, do you think a player who thinks his season is over may have gone on holiday mode?

Buer

phog wrote: »

Do you think his training regime for boxing would be in anyway different to that of rugby, do you think a player who thinks his season is over may have gone on holiday mode?

I won't bother acknowledging the repeated rhetorical questions.

I'm sure he was relaxing and on holiday mode but that doesn't exactly mean he's in the boozer every day. He's not going to lose a huge amount of fitness in a few weeks if he has been looking after himself.

Regardless, you've a big issue with his call up and that he's not fit to do the job, I don't think he'll let anyone down. Moving on.

Tim Robbins

Buer wrote: »

I won't bother acknowledging the repeated rhetorical questions.

I'm sure he was relaxing and on holiday mode but that doesn't exactly mean he's in the boozer every day. He's not going to lose a huge amount of fitness in a few weeks if he has been looking after himself.

Regardless, you've a big issue with his call up and that he's not fit to do the job, I don't think he'll let anyone down. Moving on.

I think in future the mid week games will be scrapped and it will just be a 3 test series. If the club teams have their international players withdrawn the games are not competitive enough. I got sky sports for this and there was no point. 3 trips to the pub for the tests would have been enough.

subfreq

This is the first game on tour where I think the Lions are probably going to lose. If it wasn't for the strength in the back row I would almost be certain of it.

trouttrout

The Brumbies back three is arguably a good deal better than the Lions back three too. Mogg is a class act, and I thought he would have made the Australian squad, and Speight is a brilliant strike runner. It's going to be a huge test for Hogg trying to deny them counter attacking ball

subfreq

I can't find the quote but before the Lions tour began there was mention that Deans felt Mogg was too light weight for the challenges of this test series. He must feel tomorrow is his chance to put down a marker so I can't wait to see how he goes. Toomua is also a fantastic player.

Kiwi_knock

Deans does not think Mogg is physical enough and thinks he is a weak tackler. Certainly some motivation there for Mogg to impress.

Podge_irl

Of all the potential issues one could take with Williams being drafted into the squad, I wouldn't consider his actual fitness and ability to play one of them. Yes he might lack match fitness and he hasn't played high level rugby in a while, but who cares? Its a midweek game that will be played while all attention is on the main event on Saturday. You could take issue with whether drafting in Williams is within the ethos of a Lions tour but I don't much care about his performance.

monkeybutter

.ak wrote: »

Don't think I've ever hoped to see SOB taken off at HT/50m before...

SOB is the obvious choice for the Bench given his versatility. He hasn't been made 6 because the lineout is still a mess and in fairness Croft has played well. Not sure who the backup scrumhalf will be, I think Murray has shaded it over Youngs. Roberts was nailed on to start, so his injury has left us with a concern there. There aren't going to be any surprises with the other selections. Anyone who would hope the lions should lose to teach Gatland a lesson just aint a proper fan in my books. On the size of the squad, which is better this mess or a situation where some players get little or no game time? It's hard to say. Injuries are gonna happen, calling people out is probably the best bet.

mrkillasmurph

ColmH81 wrote: »

Just read Shane Williams is starting on the wing... Is it just me or is this Lions tour becoming a joke? In my eyes The Lions was always the best players around.. No disrespect to players (clearly if they're professional then they're good players).. But I don't think Zebo, Twelvetrees etc are Lions material just yet...

Why are you so surprised? Wade is on the wing because bowe is injured, Maitland played on Saturday and cuthbert will start Saturday. Wade was available, he's resting everyone else and it's only a tour match.
Williams? North is injured/resting, zebo will be on bench on sat and Williams was in oz for punditry anyway.
12trees and Barrett? O Driscoll starting on sat, Roberts and tuilagi injured, Davies played vs nsw and probably will vs wallabies.
Hogg at 10? Sexton probably to start vs wallabies and has tight hamstring, Farrell is only other true 10 and can't be risked in case of sexton injury and will be on bench anyway. Zebo not lions material? Streets ahead of Maitland defensively and offensively, and second to none under high ball. Made a muckerey of Kearney at thomond and scored an amazing hat trick vs racing if you want to argue that one. You say that the lions were always the best players around. I think you may be confused. The game against the ACT Brumbies is NOT a test match. The first test in which "the best players around will play", will be on Saturday 22nd June against the Qantas Wallabies in Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane at 20:05 local time or 11:05 Irish time. You can watch it on Sky Sports 1 HD. Coverage starts at 10:30.