Rathmore

cfuserkildare

Hi Folks,

Just a quick observation here,

I was up at the Motte in Rathmore, Co. Kildare, went into the churchyard next door and found that a burial mound seems to have been either excavated and left open, or it has been robbed.

The mound is about 15 feet long by maybe 8 feet across and the excavation is about half way along it, 3 feet wide at an angle of maybe 5-10 degrees, going 4 feet down and leaving bones exposed.

First thought was that somebody had tried to remove a large stone from the mound, but then we began to notice bones protruding from the sides, oddly enough the first bones are only a foot from the surface.


Who should this be reported to?

Cheers.

slowburner

Report it to the local Gardaí and the duty officer of the National Museum at 01 6777444.

dr gonzo

Seriously, what the f*** is going on at the moment in this country with heritage theft and destruction...?!

KnapperHandy

Hi cfuserkildare,

Did you take any photos by any chance?

cfuserkildare

Hi KnapperHandy,

I did take a few pics but was raining hard and was only using the lightweight camera so need to check out the images properly later.
Reported to Gardai but still cannot get through to the Duty Officer at
the National Museum.

Will wait and see what happens.

Cheers.

KnapperHandy

Hi cfuserkildare,

No problem!

I think the national museum is closed on Mondays anyway,so I'd give them a shout in the morning.

All the best.

cfuserkildare

Hey folks,

I am not sure whether the pics can go up before any investigations are completed since technically it is a crime scene.

Any opinions?

Cheers.

slowburner

Photos are frequently published of site damage. Sometimes it is the only way that the problem can receive the recognition it deserves.
Feel free to post up the pics.

cfuserkildare

Here are a few of those pics,

Hope they load as they wouldn't earlier.

KnapperHandy

Hi cfuserkildare,

Thanks for the pics!

My guess is that another large slab,like the one we see in the picture,has been removed.It may have been removed quite a while ago,because you can see some moss growing on the bare soil(moss tends to be slow growing).

Just my opinion,but let's see what others think.

cfuserkildare

Kinda thought the same regarding the moss, but the stone is a bit of a strange one.
Its sort of shaped a little like a stylised dagger or sword and is about 10" thick.
Not slab like at all.

But seeing it in the flesh is very different from photos.

Cheers.

slowburner

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Kinda thought the same regarding the moss, but the stone is a bit of a strange one.
Its sort of shaped a little like a stylised dagger or sword and is about 10" thick.
Not slab like at all.

But seeing it in the flesh is very different from photos.

Cheers.

The stone is a crudely shaped medieval cross.
Only the cruciform section would have protruded above ground.
The grave marker probably dates from the C12th or C13th, possibly a little earlier.

cfuserkildare

Hey SlowBurner,

I think I read something like that regarding the stone.

All this because I was looking for the Earthworks at Arthurstown!

Still better to find this than nothing at all.

I would say the mound was dug out perhaps 6 months ago at a guess, since the grass was rather sparce but the moss was fairly well established.

Any ideas on what the official procedure is now?

slowburner

I have passed the information on to the National Monuments service.

cfuserkildare

Hi,

Cheers for doing that SlowBurner.

Its a pity that people do things like this.

Also, just while I am here,

Does anybody have an approximate age for the Mound?
The reference I found on Excavations.ie says that the Normans re-used it, therefor it was there pre-1170.

The burial intrigued me as I do not remember the Normans burying there dead underneath any buildings they were using.

robp

Its is amazingly regular for a typical treasure hunter.

cfuserkildare

I thought that myself, but no-one on an official dig would leave an excavation open like that, especially when you consider that its been left open for a while.

Also we couldn't find where the dug out earth had been deposited.

The cutting shows the strata of the mound quite well, each level has been covered by a layer of slate and each level would be 10-12" deep.

But being left open like that makes no sense to me.

slowburner

This all seems a bit peculiar.
I'll let you know the result of the NMS site visit as soon as possible.

cfuserkildare

Hi,

Not sure what the normal procedure or timescale for any investigation, but I was up at the site again and there is no visible attempt to cover / protect the "Barrow".

Don't mean to be making trouble but surely the Gardai at least would have secured the scene?

KnapperHandy

Hi cfuserkildare,

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the Gardaí to do anything(and I generally don't like slagging them off because they've enough to do as it is).

I wouldn't panic just yet!The NMS are generally on the ball in these situations,and I'm sure they'll take care of the problem sooner rather than later.

slowburner

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hi,

Not sure what the normal procedure or timescale for any investigation, but I was up at the site again and there is no visible attempt to cover / protect the "Barrow".

Don't mean to be making trouble but surely the Gardai at least would have secured the scene?

I understand your frustration but I doubt the Gardai are treating this as they would the scene of a serious crime.
If they were to secure the scene they would also be highlighting the place and then it would require 24 hour surveillance - and that ain't gonna happen.
The damage is done and the perpetrators long gone. Sadly, every single national monument is extremely vulnerable and this is why we need local vigilence.
I'm a bit surprised that nobody else reported this damage. It seems to have occurred some time ago.

cfuserkildare

Hey folks,

Finally the Gardai looked at it last night.

Was up again and found that there are bones on the opposite side from where the pics are taken, looked like a foot or maybe a hand that has been amongst the dug-out soil simply dumped on the far side of the mound.

Really needs properly investigating, but I know the Gardai do not have the spare staff to do it.

Still, we will wait and see what happens.

KnapperHandy

I take back my earlier comments about the Gardaí - fair play to them!:o

cfuserkildare

Was looking at the pictures of the Stone and think it may be more than a simple marker stone,

It may be an effigy instead of a simple cross.

Any opinions?

Cheers.

slowburner

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Was looking at the pictures of the Stone and think it may be more than a simple marker stone,

It may be an effigy instead of a simple cross.

Any opinions?

Cheers.

I don't think it is anything more than a simple early Christian cross - based on the photos.
Only a small portion would have been above ground.
The original level - or the level intended to be above ground when it was first erected - is marked by the lower orange line in this photo and the second line may indicate the level that protruded above ground at the time of its unearthing.

robp

slowburner wrote: »

I don't think it is anything more than a simple early Christian cross - based on the photos.
Only a small portion would have been above ground.
The original level - or the level intended to be above ground when it was first erected - is marked by the lower orange line in this photo and the second line may indicate the level that protruded above ground at the time of its unearthing.

I wonder if the culprit could have been digging for human remains. Not as outlandish as it may sound.

cfuserkildare

Hi Robp,

When I was up there yesterday, I noticed that there were bones just strewn amongst the grass on the side away from where the pics are taken. Looked like a foot to me. Also saw what is probably a part of a skull.
If it were somebody trophy hunting, surely they wouldn't have left so much behind.
Also wonder why the groundskeeper didn't report anything?

Also I am not so sure about it being a simple cross, it is too heavily constructed, deeper than it is broad, and a cross would surely be higher the what we see here?

slowburner

robp wrote: »

I wonder if the culprit could have been digging for human remains. Not as outlandish as it may sound.

You say outlandish, I say ghoulish.
Why would anyone want bones?

cfuserkildare

There are some sick people out there.

Look at the traditions of drying and displaying the bones of ancestors all over the world.

Pretty Gruesome.

robp

slowburner wrote: »

You say outlandish, I say ghoulish.
Why would anyone want bones?

Maybe just for the novelty of it or those who are into the Gothic aesthetic. Although archaeological bone isn't quite like the skeletons in the movies.
I am really thinking out loud. I am sure plenty of people are into that kind of thing but I can't imagine many would actually desecrate a grave for it.

slowburner

It will be very interesting to hear the opinions of the various investigators.

cfuserkildare

Quick update,

Naas Gardai phoned me and said that an archeologist did it?!?!

SERIOUSLY!!!

Any Archeologist did that, then they should be shot.

Nobody, but Nobody would knowingly leave a grave open to the elements, or leave bones scattered over an area that big.

Also Slowburner, the stone is deeper than it is broad, and kinda thicker at the back or bottom face than the top like a trapezoid, I couldn't say for sure but it does look more like it should lie flat than standing.

Any thoughts?

Cheers.

slowburner

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Quick update,

Naas Gardai phoned me and said that an archeologist did it?!?!

SERIOUSLY!!!

Any Archeologist did that, then they should be shot.

Nobody, but Nobody would knowingly leave a grave open to the elements, or leave bones scattered over an area that big.

Also Slowburner, the stone is deeper than it is broad, and kinda thicker at the back or bottom face than the top like a trapezoid, I couldn't say for sure but it does look more like it should lie flat than standing.

Any thoughts?

Cheers.

Odder and odder.
The excavation was uncharacteristically neat for a treasure hunter.
It is irresponsible and downright disrespectful for anyone - licensed or not, to leave a grave in this sort of condition.
I'll make some more enquiries.

I don't think the stone was ever intended to be a grave slab.

KnapperHandy

I agree with slowburner that the stone was not intended to be a grave slab.I visited the cemetery last week and took a few photos;it definitely bears a rough cruciform shape(see photos attached).The lower part of this granite stone(3ft. or so) has a darker colouration than the rather white,weathered cruciform-shaped part(it seemed rather obvious to me that the lower 3ft. or so had been buried in soil).The cruciform-shaped part,which would have been exposed,has significant moss growth upon it,whereas the lower part has none at all.

cfuserkildare

Hey Folks,

Just had the Super at Naas Garda on the phone, and he says that the Rector for St.Columcilles Rathmore commissioned an Archeologist to take a look, and that is how he left it.

How could an archeologist leave a dig like that?

I have found that it is difficult to walk round the back of the mound without there being crunchy sounds under the feet, also found more bones on the spoil heap, hand or foot, not sure which.

Terrible state to leave a burial mound / barrow.

Really disgusted.

KnapperHandy

Yeah I agree cfuserkildare - it's a disgrace the way it was left!

But what happens now?Surely it can't be left the way it is?

I know this sounds mad :eek:,but I would be prepared to help out if anyone else here is?It wouldn't take long for a few able-bodied individuals to refill the trench and to set the cross upright once again!I'm not sure if we would be legally allowed to do so,but maybe slowburner's pals in the NMS could advise?

olly_mac

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hey Folks,

Just had the Super at Naas Garda on the phone, and he says that the Rector for St.Columcilles Rathmore commissioned an Archeologist to take a look, and that is how he left it.

How could an archeologist leave a dig like that?

I have found that it is difficult to walk round the back of the mound without there being crunchy sounds under the feet, also found more bones on the spoil heap, hand or foot, not sure which.

Terrible state to leave a burial mound / barrow.

Really disgusted.

That was totally unprofessional. The archaeologist in question should never be allowed to obtain a licence again. He or she should also be reported to the relevant professional bodies, as well as the statutory ones.

Also, has it been ascertained as to whether this person actually held a licence?

Coles

They would appear to be questions for the Rector at St. Columcilles. If the Rector commissioned the archaeologist then the Rector needs to take responsibility for the work.

This is an area I don't know anything about, but are archaeologists commissioned to excavate graves regularly? It seems odd and I genuinely would have thought that permission would have to be granted from the State. I'd certainly be interested to know why it was done.

slowburner

KnapperHandy wrote: »

Yeah I agree cfuserkildare - it's a disgrace the way it was left!

But what happens now?Surely it can't be left the way it is?

I know this sounds mad :eek:,but I would be prepared to help out if anyone else here is?It wouldn't take long for a few able-bodied individuals to refill the trench and to set the cross upright once again!I'm not sure if we would be legally allowed to do so,but maybe slowburner's pals in the NMS could advise?

I think it would be unwise to alter anything until we know more.

Coles wrote: »

They would appear to be questions for the Rector at St. Columcilles. If the Rector commissioned the archaeologist then the Rector needs to take responsibility for the work.

This is an area I don't know anything about, but are archaeologists commissioned to excavate graves regularly? It seems odd and I genuinely would have thought that permission would have to be granted from the State. I'd certainly be interested to know why it was done.

I can't imagine why the rector or anyone else would want one grave excavated.
Strictly speaking it's not an excavation, it's an exhumation and requires an exhumation license from the local authority.

cfuserkildare

Hey Folks,

Apparently the Rector is going to have the hole filled in!

Surely this needs to be looked at before the hole is filled?

Mental!!

KnapperHandy

I suppose you can't blame him - he's obviously concerned about the health and safety implications of leaving such a trench open!

cfuserkildare

Hope to find out the name of the "Archeologist" that left this mess.

Hopefully they will never work on this island again.

cfuserkildare

Okay,

Latest news is that I had somebody look at the site last night,

They came to the conclusion that it was very a unprofessional job possibly by a mini-digger.

Might get things moving a little better as these people have solid contacts in the NMS.

Watch this space.

cfuserkildare

Hey folks,

Was up at Rathmore Cemetery yesterday, and was a little surprised to find that the burial mound is still exactly as it was when I found it 3 months ago.

baaba maal

I was up there today- and the hole is still there!:eek:
Just the same as the photos show it, and more bone weathering out (if that is the term) from the sides. I know the heritage officer in the council- I will be talking to her about this tomorrow.
It's a disgrace that it hasn't been sorted. I have to say that the stone is very interesting (to my untutored eye).

cfuserkildare

Hey folks,

Just as a point of interest,

An animal ( possibly Rabbit/Fox/Badger) has been digging a hole in the Motte itself.
Last time I was up there was before the bad weather, but we found 1 or 2 cut looking stones dug out of the hole.

Need to get back up there and get some new pics.

baaba maal

I spoke with the heritage officer. She will get in touch with the relevant authorities.

cfuserkildare

Hey Baaba Maal,

Any news?

baaba maal

No, I will talk to her over the next few days- hopefully it will result in this situation being resolved soon. My assumption is that the cross was excavated from that pit- do you know if this is the case?

cfuserkildare

Hey,

Not too sure to be honest.
I found the dug out mound by accident.
I was up there taking pics of the church, and when trying to get a good angle i stepped backwards and almost fell into the hole.

But from what I have seen at other contemporary mounds, I assume that the " Cross " was mounted vertically as a grave marker.

I find it a little mental that this has been left like this for so long.

Considering how long ago I reported it.

slowburner

baaba maal wrote: »

No, I will talk to her over the next few days- hopefully it will result in this situation being resolved soon. My assumption is that the cross was excavated from that pit- do you know if this is the case?

Based on the photos supplied above, there is absolutely no doubt that the headstone was excavated. The differences between the exposed and buried portions are clear.
I understand that this was a legitimate, licensed excavation. Why it has been left in this condition, I do not know.