Is the selection process for the Lions tour captain flawed?

dtpc191991

Sam Warburton it would seem has dropped to 5th place in terms of form within the Lions backrow selections. However as tour captain he will most likely start. This begs the question is the entire process of picking the captain in April flawed? Would it not make more sense to wait until the week preceeding the first test and then pick a tour captain from one of the members of the leadership group who has proven that he is on form during the warmups and thus should be starting?

sydthebeat

if gatland had the balls to back up his early statement that the team will be picked in merit and no one its guaranteed a place, then no its not a mistake.
The media are trying to make a case for warburton having 'Secured the test spot' after an error free but unremarkable 80 against the tahs, but most reasonable people would have sob, tipuric and croft ahead ahead of him by a long way.

There is actually no need that I can see for the tour captain to actually start the first test. The tour captains responsibilities are separate and apart from match days and personally I think the match days captain evolves from the tour based on personality.

That in mind, was the your captain ever going to be anyone but warburton?
The facts:
Two of the for home nations captains are in tour, warburton and heaslip. Heaslip hadnt experience the best 6 n so....
There was an irish captain in 2005 and again in 2009... Despite the clamour for o connell or bod to be captain, I think politics played a part in the selection of warburton.

That being said however, its highly questionable to make a player who had been injured for a large part of the lsat year and who's fitness and form was in question even before the tour left, the tour captain.

Bridge93

It should be announced with the team for the first test.

irishbucsfan

He's also a very very good captain by all accounts from Wales and the Lions. I don't see why there should any issue with him being captain.

If you think he shouldn't start, then I can see the problem. But that's an issue with the selection of the team, not the selection if tour captain.

fitz

I think if they had a two roles, the Tour Captain and Test Captain role, with the latter being announced for each test, that would avoid this issue in future tours.

dtpc191991

sydthebeat wrote: »

if gatland had the balls to back up his early statement that the team will be picked in merit and no one its guaranteed a place, then no its not a mistake.
The media are trying to make a case for warburton having 'Secured the test spot' after an error free but unremarkable 80 against the tahs, but most reasonable people would have sob, tipuric and croft ahead ahead of him by a long way.

There is actually no need that I can see for the tour captain to actually start the first test. The tour captains responsibilities are separate and apart from match days and personally I think the match days captain evolves from the tour based on personality.

That in mind, was the your captain ever going to be anyone but warburton?
The facts:
Two of the for home nations captains are in tour, warburton and heaslip. Heaslip hadnt experience the best 6 n so....
There was an irish captain in 2005 and again in 2009... Despite the clamour for o connell or bod to be captain, I think politics played a part in the selection of warburton.

That being said however, its highly questionable to make a player who had been injured for a large part of the lsat year and who's fitness and form was in question even before the tour left, the tour captain.

This is a fair point. In reality the problem on this tour is that Gatland selected a captain who's chances of making the test team were questionable, however hypothetically one could have picked O'Connell who seemed like an excellent choice and nailed on starter from day one. However it is possible that Gray and AWJ could have gone on to play the better rugby. This is the problem with selecting the captain almost 2 months before the first test is played. A huge amount can happen to a players form in that length of time and just because player A is on better form than B in April does not mean they will be come June. Perhaps having the "tour captain" and "test captain" as two clearly defined and different roles is the way to go as it will save the coach from having to face controversy if he is forced to play a player that is no longer the best in his position come the end of June. Or conversely the coach is forced to drop the tour captain from the test side and thus faces having to admit to the media that he made a mistake which in turn creates unnecessary extra pressure for the coach whose job is already difficult and stressful to begin with.

awec

fitz wrote: »

I think if they had a two roles, the Tour Captain and Test Captain role, with the latter being announced for each test, that would avoid this issue in future tours.

In which case why do we need a tour captain at all?

Rightwing

Selection process has worked fine for years.

Why change it, because some think an Irish player happens to be better than Warburton ?

By all acounts the chap is doing a fine job on and off the pitch.

Tox56

Rightwing wrote: »

Selection process has worked fine for years.

Why change it, because some think an Irish player happens to be better than Warburton ?

By all acounts the chap is doing a fine job on and off the pitch.

Tipuric would be in many peoples starting team ahead of Warburton, and yes, they are from the same country. It's nothing to do with nationality, but I suspect you knew that

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

In which case why do we need a tour captain at all?

You need a tour captain to do all the pr and social aspect of a touring party...the meet and greets.. the dinners etc.

You need a test captain to emote and inspire in the day, in the pitch.

These two roles can be separate and distinct. One embassadorial, the other combative.

Just a though.

For example watching the 2009 lions documentary and the bit where mcgeechan goes on about ' this place has no respect for your jersey'... I can imagine the test captain coming out with this stuff before a game, but if its from the tour captain who's pressing the flesh, it would appear shallow and hypocritical.

Rightwing

Tox56 wrote: »

Tipuric would be in many peoples starting team ahead of Warburton, and yes, they are from the same country. It's nothing to do with nationality, but I suspect you knew that

And Warburton would be in many a team ahead of Tipuric. That's the critical point. It's not conclusive that 1 is better than the other.

irishbucsfan

It's not about picking Tipuric or Warburton. It's about picking a pack of forwards that will do whatever it is that needs to be done most efficiently. And if the name of the game is starving Australia of possession by going through 8/9 phases at a time then there is a very valid argument for selection Warburton.

I'm not going to complain about the selection until after I see how the Lions play. Because there are numerous ways they could actually go out and play when you think about it, which I suppose is a bit of a compliment.

Edit: Actually in Faletau is selected I will complain. BEcause I genuinely don't see what situation would justify that!

Tox56

Rightwing wrote: »

And Warburton would be in many a team ahead of Tipuric. That's the critical point. It's not conclusive that 1 is better than the other.

And how many would put anyone ahead of BOD or POC in their starting team, for instance. I thought from day 1 it was an incredible decision and nothing on this tour so far has suggested otherwise

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

And Warburton would be in many a team ahead of Tipuric. That's the critical point. It's not conclusive that 1 is better than the other.

It certainly is on their form over the last 12 months

And it's not about Tipuric vs Warburton, SOB has been playing better than Warburton too

Rightwing

Tox56 wrote: »

And how many would put anyone ahead of BOD or POC in their starting team, for instance. I thought from day 1 it was an incredible decision and nothing on this tour so far has suggested otherwise

And you may be right. But I thought for instance until recently that BOD wouldn't be in the starting team, I also thought at 1 stage POC may not even be in the squad.

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

And you may be right. But I thought for instance until recently that BOD wouldn't be in the starting team, I also thought at 1 stage POC may not even be in the squad.

Point being?

.ak

Rightwing wrote: »

And Warburton would be in many a team ahead of Tipuric. That's the critical point. It's not conclusive that 1 is better than the other.

What has Warburton done to justify selection over Tipuric? And on who's team is he on? Excluding people with ulterior motives (ie sky team, Stephen jones etc)

Anyway moot point. AWJ should've been captain from day one.

trouttrout

Ya AWJ or POC should have been captain

Littlehorny

Gatland has made Rory Best captain for tomorow's game, a few weeks ago he didn't think Best was good enough to be in the squad! Even though there are not official captains you can see that POC and BOD do a lot of talking before and during games and every player listens and respects them. Every really great team has always had a few "leaders" in it.

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

What has Warburton done to justify selection over Tipuric? And on who's team is he on? Excluding people with ulterior motives (ie sky team, Stephen jones etc)

Anyway moot point. AWJ should've been captain from day one.

There were a few realy good examples of why he should be considered on Saturday.

One I remember was early enough. I think jearly exactly 10 minutes in. One of our guys was fairly isolated and created a great chance for one of their loose forwards.

It should have been a penalty. But Warburton came in with a top class clearout and the Lions pushed on. I think eventually to knock it on on their line. It was one of the most valuable clearouts of the tour to date. And there was noone else around.

If you want to pick Croft or O'Brien at 6 against Australia then you need someone else who can do that and not leave it to Heaslip. Tipuric isn't an option for that.

You have to picture the guys on 4th/5th phase. What are they normally doing? O'Brien is in midfield waiting for an opportunity to go rampaging. Tipuric is wider out, as is Croft. Heaslip could be anywhere. Warburton follows play and makes these kinds of plays.

Its why I dont think you can pick SOB/Tipuric/Heaslip without picking someone like Evans in the second row.

I personally want to see SOB/Warburton/Heaslip with Tipuric on the bench. But Gatland might rate Croft higher than me.

trouttrout

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There were a few realy good examples of why he should be considered on Saturday.

One I remember was early enough. I think jearly exactly 10 minutes in. One of our guys was fairly isolated and created a great chance for one of their loose forwards.

It should have been a penalty. But Warburton came in with a top class clearout and the Lions pushed on. I think eventually to knock it on on their line. It was one of the most valuable clearouts of the tour to date. And there was noone else around.

If you want to pick Croft or O'Brien at 6 against Australia then you need someone else who can do that and not leave it to Heaslip. Tipuric isn't an option for that.

You have to picture the guys on 4th/5th phase. What are they normally doing? O'Brien is in midfield waiting for an opportunity to go rampaging. Tipuric is wider out, as is Croft. Heaslip could be anywhere. Warburton follows play and makes these kinds of plays.

Its why I dont think you can pick SOB/Tipuric/Heaslip without picking someone like Evans in the second row.

I personally want to see SOB/Warburton/Heaslip with Tipuric on the bench. But Gatland might rate Croft higher than me.

I see you that and raise you Warburton getting over an isolated Tah's player midway through the second half. Got himself over the ball, and slowed it down a bit before being driven off by a Tah's back

It's the kind of position that should have been a turnover if Warburton really was the world class groundhog he is often lauded as

decisions

If you replace Sam with an Irish player nobody would have any problem with them being captain, even if they weren't playing well.

trouttrout

decisions wrote: »

If you replace Sam with an Irish player nobody would have any problem with them being captain, even if they weren't playing well.

That wouldn't make it right though would it? I doubt many Welsh are complaining about Warburton as captain, but he still shouldn't be

irishbucsfan

trouttrout wrote: »

I see you that and raise you Warburton getting over an isolated Tah's player midway through the second half. Got himself over the ball, and slowed it down a bit before being driven off by a Tah's back

It's the kind of position that should have been a turnover if Warburton really was the world class groundhog he is often lauded as

While I don't doubt his defensive ability at all, I'd be surprised if any of our back row are selected based on anything like that. I would imagine Gatland is looking for the best back row to suit his style of rugby.

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There were a few realy good examples of why he should be considered on Saturday.

One I remember was early enough. I think jearly exactly 10 minutes in. One of our guys was fairly isolated and created a great chance for one of their loose forwards.

It should have been a penalty. But Warburton came in with a top class clearout and the Lions pushed on. I think eventually to knock it on on their line. It was one of the most valuable clearouts of the tour to date. And there was noone else around.

If you want to pick Croft or O'Brien at 6 against Australia then you need someone else who can do that and not leave it to Heaslip. Tipuric isn't an option for that.

You have to picture the guys on 4th/5th phase. What are they normally doing? O'Brien is in midfield waiting for an opportunity to go rampaging. Tipuric is wider out, as is Croft. Heaslip could be anywhere. Warburton follows play and makes these kinds of plays.

Its why I dont think you can pick SOB/Tipuric/Heaslip without picking someone like Evans in the second row.

I personally want to see SOB/Warburton/Heaslip with Tipuric on the bench. But Gatland might rate Croft higher than me.

Don't think I can agree with that IBF, SOBs clear outs have been the best on tour, especially in in the game he played with Tipuric, the two worked in tandem, Tipuric roamed out and SOB stuck close to the attacking breakdown, and delivered a rock steady platform for the SH. I just think they're a very special combo and have proven it on the field. Where as Warburton has shown individual flashes but hasn't impressed as part of a unit.

thebaz

Sam Warbutton gets little respect here - not sure why - I think he is a wonderful player and deserves his captaincy - it sound a little sour grapes, that we didn't get one of our own - I think he deserves it , hes been super for Wales through the years.

bilston

I always felt BOD should have been captain, I couldn't really foresee a situation where he wouldn't be in the team, however I guess there is always the concern that he mightn't last the tour. Also I'm told (although I haven't looked at the stats) that Gatland nearly always picks a forward as his captain...presumably midweek Lions game don't count in that respect...

With POC he had hardly played much rugby, just making the tour was a massive achievement for him, obviously since then he has played brillantly and has nailed himself into the team but that wasn't a certainty six weeks ago.

Coming into this tour there weren't many nailed on players for the test side, Halfpenny, North, Sexton and Jones were about as close to it as anyone and of them only Sexton is captaincy material and even then I personally think out halves have enough on their plate without having to skipper as well.

It was always a hard hard decision for Gatland, maybe he got it wrong, who knows, however one thing appears clear and that is that he seems to be a good captain. He is also a big game player and with that I hope he proves it on Saturday.

As for naming a tour captain before the tour begins? Well don't all internationals sides do exactly the same thing? There is nothing wrong with that, it's whether the coach has the balls to make the hard call if needs be.

Fireball07

thebaz wrote: »

Sam Warbutton gets little respect here - not sure why - I think he is a wonderful player and deserves his captaincy - it sound a little sour grapes, that we didn't get one of our own - I think he deserves it , hes been super for Wales through the years.

In 2011, Warburton got a lot of respect here....he was magnificent. Almost everyone had him as a nailed-on Lions captain, and captain of Wales for years.

Last year, he was poor. He had some injury problems and a lot of form problems. Tipuric outshone him for Wales, and tbh, I think his captaincy at club level was very poor. Obviously it's hard to judge from outside, but Cardiff got a few hammerings last year and he just looked disinterested, which is not what you want to see.

bilston

thebaz wrote: »

Sam Warbutton gets little respect here - not sure why - I think he is a wonderful player and deserves his captaincy - it sound a little sour grapes, that we didn't get one of our own - I think he deserves it , hes been super for Wales through the years.

Maybe it's sour grapes with some but the reality is that Warburton hasn't been on top form yet. However as I said above he is a big game player so hopefully we see him do it at the weekend. I think that at his best he is the best O/S in Britain and Ireland, but he doesn't always get to that level.

.ak

thebaz wrote: »

Sam Warbutton gets little respect here - not sure why - I think he is a wonderful player and deserves his captaincy - it sound a little sour grapes, that we didn't get one of our own - I think he deserves it , hes been super for Wales through the years.

Why sour grapes? Most people here are just annoyed he's getting selected over Tipuric because he's captain. How's that sour grapes?

trouttrout

thebaz wrote: »

Sam Warbutton gets little respect here - not sure why - I think he is a wonderful player and deserves his captaincy - it sound a little sour grapes, that we didn't get one of our own - I think he deserves it , hes been super for Wales through the years.

Since 2011 what games has he been super for Wales in? I really don't think it's got anything to do with sour grapes, if AWJ was given the captaincy no one would be complaining

Tox56

trouttrout wrote: »

Since 2011 what games has he been super for Wales in? I really don't think it's got anything to do with sour grapes, if AWJ was given the captaincy no one would be complaining

Indeed. He was truly world class in 2011 but he's only found his top form in fits and starts since that.

Wales won the 6 Nations back to back but he wasn't exactly ever present. In 2012 for example he only started against us (where he was subbbed at half-time and Tipuric played a blinder in his absence), England (where he was outstanding and MOTM) and the final game v France (where he was again subbed at half-time). He missed the Scottish and Italian games completely.

Again in 2013 he missed the French game completely and played 10 minutes of the Italian game. He was superb in the last 2 games in fairness to him.

He has had excellent periods since 2011, but he has had his fair share of mediocre appearances too. He has missed a huge amount through injury, and although he was captain he was far from integral to Wales' achievements over the last 2 years. I've tried not to go into too many rants about the Warburton captaincy thing but the whole decision just baffles me.

rrpc

In terms of the selection of tour captain, I don't think the April selection date is flawed. Going on tour without a tour captain would look so much worse than going with an injured one. If the guy does get injured and has to go home, then by all means select a replacement, but it's no different than having a club captain and an on field replacement when he's not available.

However I suspect that the thread title should really read "Is Sam Warburton a good choice of tour captain?" since that seems to be what most people are discussing here.

thebaz

.ak wrote: »

Why sour grapes?

most people would obviously have preferred BOD or POC to be captain .

also i remember last WC when I thought he was outstanding , he was getting a hard time from some here

trouttrout

thebaz wrote: »

most people would obviously have preferred BOD or POC to be captain .

also i remember last WC when I thought he was outstanding , he was getting a hard time from some here

The last world cup was in 2011. That form is meaningless in terms of who should be picked as captain for a tour in 2013

Fireball07

rrpc wrote: »

In terms of the selection of tour captain, I don't think the April selection date is flawed. Going on tour without a tour captain would look so much worse than going with an injured one. If the guy does get injured and has to go home, then by all means select a replacement, but it's no different than having a club captain and an on field replacement when he's not available.

However I suspect that the thread title should really read "Is Sam Warburton a good choice of tour captain?" since that seems to be what most people are discussing here.

But that's because it's the current tour..... I think the point being that how about if a person's form on tour is overshadowed by all others in his position, should he still start?


Although, in this instance, I don't think Warburton's form in April was good enough to start either, Tipuric was playing better than him then too.

.ak

thebaz wrote: »

most people would obviously have preferred BOD or POC to be captain .

also i remember last WC when I thought he was outstanding , he was getting a hard time from some here

Really? I don't think anyone has actually said they don't like Warb as a captain. I think you're generalizing a lot of posters here. Most people actually like him, as a player and as a captain, but lets be realistic, in the past 12 months he's been missing from rugby - he hasn't imposed himself at the Blues and in any games for Wales he's been mediocre at best.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, I'm sympathetic to the chap, but at the end of the day this is test rugby, a series of 3 games that only rolls around every 4 years, sympathy has no place here.

twinytwo

decisions wrote: »

If you replace Sam with an Irish player nobody would have any problem with them being captain, even if they weren't playing well.

it has nothing to do with him being welsh. There were questions of BOD and POC coming into the tour and both stepped up to the plate. Warburton has not simple as. He should not be on the tour.

sydthebeat

twinytwo wrote: »

... He should not be on the tour.

I wouldn't go this far.

The argument I have is that he shouldn't be guaranteed his test team place by reason hes captain, nor has his form been good enough to earn a test spot in comparison to his compatriots.

schools rugby

Before the world cup Warburton wasnt exactly well known in the rugby world and he stepped up , there is a fine chance he may step up again for the tests matches .....

However Tipuric is the inform 7 atm

twinytwo

thebaz wrote: »

most people would obviously have preferred BOD or POC to be captain .

also i remember last WC when I thought he was outstanding , he was getting a hard time from some here

what has the last world cup have to do with the present?

schools rugby

Heres a dilemma which worries me if Warburton gets dropped .

Warburton gets dropped for Tipuric for the first test , Tipuric gets injured and is ruled out for the series while POC was captain for the first test .

Now Warburton having been dropped is low on confidence and in bad form comes in for the second test to replace Tipuric.

Now there is more debate as regards the captaincy issue and its left in the air who captains the second test

parttime77

It was likely the 1/4 final display against Hquinns that sealed the deal for POC selection, it showed how important a role he has plays to bring other players up to the next level , which can be priceless at this level .

Rightwing

parttime77 wrote: »

It was likely the 1/4 final display against Hquinns that sealed the deal for POC selection, it showed how important a role he has plays to bring other players up to the next level , which can be priceless at this level .

Exactly.
Look at all the players who've played beside POC.

AWJ the last day, 1 of his best games ever.
Gray v Babas, super performance,

petebricquette

Rightwing wrote: »

Exactly.
Look at all the players who've played beside POC.

AWJ the last day, 1 of his best games ever.
Gray v Babas, super performance,

Kind of like the BOD effect: The BOD/Roberts partnership was huge for the 2009 series but Roberts never quite got to that level again. Tuilagi has one of his best games ever in terms of distribution/unselfishness just this series with BOD outside him.

POC=BOD of the second row.

thebaz

twinytwo wrote: »

what has the last world cup have to do with the present?

just, that I remember defending back then against, what I fealt was unfair criticism - and a few years later people are questioning is he good eneogh for the lions - I don't personally know him, but think he a superb rugby player. Thats my opinion, if others differ - its a free country.

Rightwing

thebaz wrote: »

just, that I remember defending back then against, what I fealt was unfair criticism - and a few years later people are questioning is he good eneogh for the lions - I don't personally know him, but think he a superb rugby player. Thats my opinion, if others differ - its a free country.

I agree, looking at his ratings the last day across several papers and he scored an 8.

POC has been hugely impressed with him as captain.

jm08

Rightwing wrote: »

I agree, looking at his ratings the last day across several papers and he scored an 8.

POC has been hugely impressed with him as captain.

What do you expect him to say?

Though this comment could be considered as a criticism when he talks about quiet dressing rooms and players trying to do well individually (rather than as a team?)

"The dressing-room is a lot quieter than on previous tours. There isn't a hell of a lot of talk coming up to games. There is no bravado or talk.
"There is savage competition for places, and guys are very eager to play as well as they can individually.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2013/0617/457083-oconnell/

Rightwing

jm08 wrote: »

What do you expect him to say?

Though this comment could be considered as a criticism when he talks about quiet dressing rooms and players trying to do well individually (rather than as a team?)



http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2013/0617/457083-oconnell/[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't expect him to speak glowingly of him for starters.
I wouldn't interpret that as criticism...it is an interesting read though.

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

Exactly.
Look at all the players who've played beside POC.

AWJ the last day, 1 of his best games ever.
Gray v Babas, super performance,

Superb? What game were you watching, he was ok to decent, certainly not superb

And I doubt his performance had much to do with POC's leadership anyway

irishbucsfan

Gray has been poor to mediocre, pushing average at times.

He's got to be last on the list at the moment surely? I'd much prefer Evans or Parling on the bench.