Is the selection process for the Lions tour captain flawed?

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

I wouldn't expect him to speak glowingly of him for starters.
I wouldn't interpret that as criticism...it is an interesting read though.

You realise journalists ask him about Warburton? And that's beside the point, it's not his leadership being questioned, it's his place in the test side that makes him unsuitable for captain

irishbucsfan

What makes the Warburton discussion irrelevant is that even if he plays exceptionally, few will admit it.

I had to watch the game late and I read that match thread afterwards. It was just a collection of people sitting around in wait for him to make a mistake. Just like the early days of Sexton or Murray's Ireland careers... or any time Paddy Wallace played!

I really hope the Lions match thread isn't like that. If it is there's no way I'm sticking around for it.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What makes the Warburton discussion irrelevant is that even if he plays exceptionally, few will admit it.

I had to watch the game late and I read that match thread afterwards. It was just a collection of people sitting around in wait for him to make a mistake. Just like the early days of Sexton or Murray's Ireland careers... or any time Paddy Wallace played!

I really hope the Lions match thread isn't like that. If it is there's no way I'm sticking around for it.

The same was said of Farrell after he played poorly in the first game and was vilified in the first thread. Hardly been a whimper outside the seagulls since

.ak

schools rugby wrote: »

Heres a dilemma which worries me if Warburton gets dropped .

Warburton gets dropped for Tipuric for the first test , Tipuric gets injured and is ruled out for the series while POC was captain for the first test .

Now Warburton having been dropped is low on confidence and in bad form comes in for the second test to replace Tipuric.

Now there is more debate as regards the captaincy issue and its left in the air who captains the second test

No dilemma at all, SOB is the 2nd best openside after Tipuric. If Tip got injured you could just play SOB.

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What makes the Warburton discussion irrelevant is that even if he plays exceptionally, few will admit it.

I had to watch the game late and I read that match thread afterwards. It was just a collection of people sitting around in wait for him to make a mistake. Just like the early days of Sexton or Murray's Ireland careers... or any time Paddy Wallace played!

I really hope the Lions match thread isn't like that. If it is there's no way I'm sticking around for it.

I get where you're coming from, but it's harsh to brandish all the posters with one brush. There's plenty of valid criticism coming from people here, including myself, that are actually big fans of Warb.

I for one wouldn't be saying anything if it wasn't for the fact that Tipuric, imo one of the form 7s in the NH, may not make the test 23 because Warburton, who is clearly not in form, may take his place.

These tests roll around every 4 years, and there's only 3 games, so you really want to see the guys who's put their all into their performances to be picked on merit and not reputation/captaincy/whatever.

And ofcourse there's a flipside to this, the Sky hyperbole of him. Propaganda like this is hardly going to inspire the fans... Do they think we're mugs?

19543261

Whats the consensus on Warburton from the Welsh fans? Anyone done some lurking on their forums?

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What makes the Warburton discussion irrelevant is that even if he plays exceptionally, few will admit it.
.

would you admit that the half time montage of him ' being' on the pitch was embarrasing to the point of hilarity?

he was better in the second half, but unremarkably so.

Webbs

19543261 wrote: »

Whats the consensus on Warburton from the Welsh fans? Anyone done some lurking on their forums?

concensus is that he is playing well, though not on top form, they have no issue with him (obviously) being chosen to play in first test.
They are worried that the alternatives sit off the breakdown more and so could hand a big advantage to the Aus if Warburton isnt there to help secure ball or slow ball down.
If Faletau is playing then there is a case for Warburton not playing due to faletaus work at breakdown freeing up others, if Heaslip is playing then Warburton has to start

The Welsh at the moment like their flanker to follow the ball, not be a first or second receiver and be big ball carriers, seems to be the biggest difference in opinions here and on Welsh forums etc.

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What makes the Warburton discussion irrelevant is that even if he plays exceptionally, few will admit it.

I had to watch the game late and I read that match thread afterwards. It was just a collection of people sitting around in wait for him to make a mistake. Just like the early days of Sexton or Murray's Ireland careers... or any time Paddy Wallace played!

I really hope the Lions match thread isn't like that. If it is there's no way I'm sticking around for it.

I think what provoked that reaction was the over-the-top hype from the Sky pundits at half-time and after the game. Maybe you didn't see it if you weren't watching it live but it was embarrassing for all concerned. Warburton was OK but they were ascribing all sorts of heroic deeds to him that just didn't happen. Is that not as bad or worse then over-emphasis on his mistakes?

In-match threads are always a bit ridiculous. If you're looking for calm, balanced analysis, stay off boards until the day after, that's what I usually do, particularly during Ireland matches and interprovincials.

twinytwo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What makes the Warburton discussion irrelevant is that even if he plays exceptionally, few will admit it.

I had to watch the game late and I read that match thread afterwards. It was just a collection of people sitting around in wait for him to make a mistake. Just like the early days of Sexton or Murray's Ireland careers... or any time Paddy Wallace played!

I really hope the Lions match thread isn't like that. If it is there's no way I'm sticking around for it.

Id have no problem if he was playing well, but he is not. As tour captain he is expected to play well.

As for people waiting for him to make a mistake.. the way gatty and sky blow smoke up his arse even though he his doing nothing.

parttime77

Anyway , with the test team out today , how many irish will get in the 15 and on the bench , !!!! , BOD ,Sexton , POC, Heaslip is a close call , I think he will shade it , if not defo on the bench , Bench SOB, RK ,Zebo.With zebo able to cover full back could he keep kearney off the bench , the bench will be as intreseting as the first 15.

irishbucsfan

twinytwo wrote: »

Id have no problem if he was playing well, but he is not. As tour captain he is expected to play well.

As for people waiting for him to make a mistake.. the way gatty and sky blow smoke up his arse even though he his doing nothing.

He played well a couple of days ago. If you think he was doing nothing then I really don't know what to say to you!

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He played well a couple of days ago. If you think he was doing nothing then I really don't know what to say to you!

he did no more than what was basically required of him.

his second half was a bit better than his first.

at this stage i think tipurics stock fell a little after the brumbies game and him and warburton are roughly on the same level, although i personally think tipuric is a lot more effective over the park. Warburton hasnt shown any thing yet to date on tour that hes better in the breakdown than any SOB, Lydiate and Tipuric.... crofts main skills lie elsewhere

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

he did no more than what was basically required of him.

his second half was a bit better than his first.

at this stage i think tipurics stock fell a little after the brumbies game and him and warburton are roughly on the same level, although i personally think tipuric is a lot more effective over the park. Warburton hasnt shown any thing yet to date on tour that hes better in the breakdown than any SOB, Lydiate and Tipuric.... crofts main skills lie elsewhere

See this is exactly it. To say he did no more than was basically required of him makes little sense.

What do you think was "basically required of him"?

trouttrout

Look, you basically need one of Lydiate or Warburton starting. Maybe if Ian Evans had made a better case for himself and forced his way into the team it would be easier to accommodate SOB or Tipuric at 7 but you only need to look at the game yesterday to see how ineffective Gatlands game plan is without the hard unspectacular slog of Warburton or Lydiate

Does that mean Warburton should be captain?No, does it mean he's playing well? No. But considering the rest of the pack either him or Lydiate is needed in the backrow

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

See this is exactly it. To say he did no more than was basically required of him makes little sense.

What do you think was "basically required of him"?

theres different kinds of flankers.... its probably the position on the field with the least structured roles.

The 'basic' duties of a flanker is to:
protect in and around the structured areas such as scrums
hit rucks and slow down opposition ball where possible, turn over at a sniff
hit rucks, secure and clear out on own ball
its disruption, foraging and playing with highly level of continued controlled aggression. warbs so far in the last year has yet to show he can do this.

if you want to know what a flanker can do above and beyond their basic duties look to SOB so far on this tour.. how many tries has he been involved in the back line play? how good have his hands been in those situations.... his line breaks? hes even put in grubbers ffs.
A great flanker links up backs and forwards by being available to carry around rucks, make line breaks, make the hard yards.


so my point of a warburton just doing the basics stands, doing basics in a position with the least defined basic roles isnt what you want...

irishbucsfan

Thats a very genereal list, So think about what of those things are most important to Gatland.

And think about what combination achieves that most effectively.

I believe it is SOB, Warburton and Heaslip. But maybe Croft makes sense as well. I wouldn't start Tipuric for sure though.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Thats a very genereal list, So think about what of those things are most important to Gatland.

And think about what combination achieves that most effectively.

I believe it is SOB, Warburton and Heaslip. But maybe Croft makes sense as well. I wouldn't start Tipuric for sure though.

Thats the point, i dont think warburton is more effective than SOB on the ground, under current form. If its pure ground working that gatland wants from his open side lydiate can almost put his hand up and say he deserves a pick.

i dont think theres too much between tipuric and warburton after the brumbies game.. and i really hope for the lions sake that warbs brushes off the cobwebs and has a great test series...

what you have above is very well balanced, and more balanced than croft / heaslip / warbs.... but i cant see gatland starting SOB unfortunately.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

Thats the point, i dont think warburton is more effective than SOB on the ground, under current form. If its pure ground working that gatland wants from his open side lydiate can almost put his hand up and say he deserves a pick.

i dont think theres too much between tipuric and warburton after the brumbies game.. and i really hope for the lions sake that warbs brushes off the cobwebs and has a great test series...

what you have above is very well balanced, and more balanced than croft / heaslip / warbs.... but i cant see gatland starting SOB unfortunately.

I don't think its more balanced actually. I think it will just require a Heaslip to play more narrowly than he would have if SOB was playing, in defense that is.

Warburton is not better on the ground defensively, but that's not what the selection is based on. He showed on Saturday that he is excellent offensively and that is what is more important to the Lions this time out when they're playing Gatland ball. I don't think its an area of strength for Tipuric, and I think thats why he has struggled to establish himself internationally at times when Wales are looking to hold onto the ball for long periods.