I've Joined a Cult

colm_gti

All this talk of lamb...think I'll slow roast a lamb shank for dinner tomorrow!

j@utis

NamelessPhil wrote: »

350gm boneless rump steaks from Aldi at €4.99/ €14.26 per kg. A rack of lamb from Superquinn comes in at around €20/€22 per kg. There are savings to be had.

whole lamb isn't just prime cuts, there are cheaper bits in there too, bones and all. I love lamb but it's a rare treat in our house, pricey stuff

petethedrummer

j@utis wrote: »

there are cheaper bits in there too, bones and all.

that's where the goodness is.

j@utis

I know! and I want them! but it's not easy - I go to local butchers and say "I'd like some cheap cut of meat with bone, please", he says err "only have rib steak" that's 18eur/kg and has a tiny piece of bone in it. Got whole ox tail today from different butcher, will melt it in slow cooker tomorrow, can't wait!
Couple days ago I made an omelet in the slow cooker. It came out about three inches thick, looked impressive I must say! gotta take some pics next time. I used 10 eggs, bacon and ton of veg, it served breakfast and dinner for two of us, whole day sorted, lol.

NamelessPhil

I was just giving the price as an example. I agree with you about the bonier parts, it's all good!

ford2600

NamelessPhil wrote: »

I cycled past this place not too far from Ashbourne a couple of weeks back. I've never tried their produce, but they do sell lamb direct from the farm.

Long ago my dad would help his cousin file his accounts and get paid for his services with a lamb for the chest freezer.

I buy lamb from neighbour. last year it was almost €150, previous years it had been been €105. Prices were up everywhere.
Slaughter and butcher costs and disposal of spine is probably €30-€40.

I'd rather mountain lamb to lowland which is what you linked to. For most part mountain lamb are roaming on wild commonage for most of their lives and are brought down to fields near household for better grass and concentrate fora a few weeks prior to slaughter.

Good price for Easter lamb for farmers but the moving of date, in line with moon, requires expertise in astronomy as well as managing a herd!

100200 shih

I am 4 weeks into the paleo diet ,( female) 1 stone lost in weight ( no exercise unless you count moving home ! )

I get no midday slumps anymore. I sleeping very well & I am never hungry now. The only carbs I eat are those in fruit or veg.

The first week was hell because I loved bread & potatoes ( i was dreaming about bread ), also I am still missing milk but I can live with this.

Its more of a lifestyle change than a diet. No process foods in my house anymore.

duffyshuffle

Stir fried lamb heart for breakfast today #delicious 99c a heart

AstraMonti

Had a piece of 80% cacao chocolate and loved it. I used to hate the guts out of these stuff but since I had nothing sweet for the last few weeks this felt great to taste. I even start liking the taste of broccoli. Whoever said above that your taste buds can be retrained, you 're probably right!

petethedrummer

100200 shih wrote: »

also I am still missing milk but I can live with this.

Chris Kresser on Dairy.
http://chriskresser.com/does-dairy-cause-osteoporosis
http://chriskresser.com/dairy-food-of-the-gods-or-neolithic-agent-of-disease

CramCycle

petethedrummer wrote: »

Scroll up to the video from 1986, I think there is a little cartoon on insulin feeding cancer cells in one of the 6 videos. Is it true? I dunno. Hard to know what is true. The cartoon says it is.

Haven't seen the video but it is not that insulin feeds cells, rather that the activation of insulin receptors leads to an intracellular signalling process which activates GLUT transporters which in turn mean the cell can take up glucose.

ie if there was no/little insulin present, the cells would either not take up glucose or take it up at a reduced rate through another GLUT transporter, so it sort of makes sense.

AstraMonti

I had seen this video a few years back and I have been avoiding smoked bacon since then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tvx_CKB7uI

petethedrummer

CramCycle wrote: »

Haven't seen the video but it is not that insulin feeds cells, rather that the activation of insulin receptors leads to an intracellular signalling process which activates GLUT transporters which in turn mean the cell can take up glucose.

ie if there was no/little insulin present, the cells would either not take up glucose or take it up at a reduced rate through another GLUT transporter, so it sort of makes sense.

I will bow to your superior explanation.:)

petethedrummer

AstraMonti wrote: »

I had seen this video a few years back and I have been avoiding smoked bacon since then.

The only real problem I have with any of that is the flavourings and the liquid smoke. I'd be suspicious of what's in there.

Having done some projects in the food industry I have no particular problem with my food being made by machines (I program machines for a living). These days they are generally clean places, as clean as my kitchen anyway or as clean as any restaurant kitchen I've worked in. It would be the additives and what the animal was fed to fatten it that would bother me.

I worked in a burger factory as a student and actually came out of it less concerned about the quality of the meat in some of the big brand burger patties than when I went in. I worked in the quality dept for about a month receiving the meat and taking samples. It wasn't all guts, eyeballs and spines. In fact there had been a huge hoo haa over small bit of spine found some years previous. It was big slabs of what looked like high quality meat. I had to drill into the slabs with a black & decker drill and an inch wide drill bit, collect the meat and send it to the lab. A grand job if the meat was fully frozen. A bit messy if it had thawed at all, you had to through your weight behind the drill. I was pretty assured that they didn't do anything untoward to the meat in the factory.

I have had problems eating chicken nuggets and those rectangular pork rib things since then. They just look wrong while being processed and I didn't see what form the raw ingredients came in for those, but maybe they are fine. I might have different opinions on both if I went back and had a look today.

colm_gti

So today I rode my first race since cutting out carbs and introducing more fat...

http://www.strava.com/activities/78874645

Wasn't exactly a leisurely pace either, 6 of us signed on in the scratch group, 2 of which were in contention for the league win, with 1st place 45 seconds up the road in semi-scratch. So we were fairly pushing on til we caught the group ahead!

I had a breakfast of 2 scrambled eggs made with cream, some spinach and some greek yogurt with blueberries and nuts, washed down with a creamy coffee. Rode over to the start line, rode the race, had a banana (just in case) and rode home again. I brought 2 gels with me just in case, but never needed them, and had no issues responding to attacks or jumps in pace, in fact I felt quite good!

Chowing down to a chicken now (thigh and wing), skin and all, with some creamy, cheesy cauliflower mash, yum!

Splendour

As someone who has been ill with an 'undiagnosed chronic fatigue type thing' for the past 8 years and having gone GF and DF I decided to go on a HF/LC diet after watching the film 'First Do No Harm'.

It tells the story of a kid who is diagnosed with epilepsy and instead of getting any better he in fact gets worse with prescribed drugs. His mother (portrayed by the brilliant Meryl Streep) decides to do a bit of research and discovers the ketogenic diet is being used in the John Hopkins Hospital to treat epilepsy. It's a fascinating look at how the foods we eat can affect us. Hence my decision to give it a go and see if it will give me some energy!

However, 2 weeks into the diet, I am weak as a kitten-although it is normal enough for me to not have energy, I seem worse than ever. So, am curious if anyone here on this diet has had a herx reaction when they first began the diet?

'First Do No Harm' link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyeC9IiFKpw

kumate_champ07

I wish this was a cult that chased me down and dragged me back, Ive escaped!

AstraMonti

Splendour wrote: »

So, am curious if anyone here on this diet has had a herx reaction when they first began the diet?

I don't have a bad reaction to it but I don't have a super reaction to it either, like Pete or Colm is describing it. I was on the bike today after a month away and did a slow 50k without too much trouble or effort. I am going to keep the same high fat diet until the end of the month where I am going to do some blood tests to see how my body is reacting to it. I don't see any other alternative apart from going strictly Paleo, I can't go back to the way I was eating after all this reading, it just doesn't make sense.

Today's breakfast was few pieces of brie cheese with butter fried bacon and one apple. On the bike I had a couple of brazil nuts. For lunch two salmon fillets with mayo and spinach salad. For dinner I am having two pork chops with fried eggs and feta cheese.

AstraMonti

Not sure if this video has been posted before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTUspjZG-wc

Lumen

Splendour wrote: »

So, am curious if anyone here on this diet has had a herx reaction when they first began the diet?

I googled herx reaction and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarisch-Herxheimer_reaction
"The Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction is a reaction to endotoxins released by the death of harmful organisms within the body....The Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction is classically associated with penicillin treatment of syphilis"

Splendour

Lumen wrote: »

I googled herx reaction and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarisch-Herxheimer_reaction
"The Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction is a reaction to endotoxins released by the death of harmful organisms within the body....The Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction is classically associated with penicillin treatment of syphilis"

It basically means things 'get worse before the get better'. Body clearing out toxins after eliminating certain foods.

Lumen

Splendour wrote: »

It basically means things 'get worse before the get better'. Body clearing out toxins after eliminating certain foods.

Smells like pseudoscience. Do you have any references?

Splendour

Lumen wrote: »

Smells like pseudoscience. Do you have any references?

Tons of stuff online which I'm sure you came across when you googled your above reference.

If someone is addicted to tea/coffee and decide to come off it they will more than likely suffer from withdrawal symptoms and suffer with headaches before they feel better. Am sure you've heard of people going through something similar?

niceonetom

Carb flu. Detox. Herx reaction. Call it what you like, a radical change in diet might, shocker, leave you feeling a bit off for a few days. Do we need to cite peer review for the obvious?

Lumen

Splendour wrote: »

Tons of stuff online which I'm sure you came across when you googled your above reference.

Actually no, I didn't come across any references. I scanned the first page of results and picked a Wikipedia page which seemed to use a similar term.

Splendour wrote: »

If someone is addicted to tea/coffee and decide to come off it they will more than likely suffer from withdrawal symptoms and suffer with headaches before they feel better. Am sure you've heard of people going through something similar?

Do you mean "addicted" or "habituated"? I don't see what caffeine withdrawal has got to do with changing diet, except in a massively hand-wavy sort of way. Mechanisms are important. Terminology is important.

niceonetom wrote: »

Carb flu. Detox. Herx reaction. Call it what you like, a radical change in diet might, shocker, leave you feeling a bit off for a few days. Do we need to cite peer review for the obvious?

Any references to "detox" set off my bull**** alarm bells.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detoxification_(alternative_medicine)

"Body cleansing has been described by the British organisation Sense About Science as "a waste of time and money" [3][4]; many researchers agree that there is no clinical evidence that such diets are effective.[5] The "toxins" are usually undefined, with little to no evidence of toxic accumulation in the patient.[6]"

So yes, I do want references when a precisely defined and apparently scientifically researched condition ("Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction") is used well outside its proper frame of reference.

Is that unreasonable?

AstraMonti

Not sure if you have seen this video, she talks a lot about toxins in your gut, so I guess if you have toxins, then there is a method of getting rid of them too (she claims food does that). She talks about it here as well.

niceonetom

Lumen wrote: »

Is that unreasonable?

A bit. Not as unreasonable as invoking the term in the first place but a cursory google should (and did) reveal that it was just your common-or-garden attempt to medicalise every little thing. When someone claims their slight tension headache is an aneurysm looking for peer review on aneurysms might be unnecessary.

Splendour

Lumen wrote: »

Any references to "detox" set off my bull**** alarm bells.

Cold Turkey anyone..?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens

Anyway, this is pulling the thread off it's original topic. I simply asked in case anyone has had a similar reaction (and without sounding rude, whether you believe in such things or not is irrelevant to me).

petethedrummer

petethedrummer wrote: »

In other news, physio says I should go cycling again.

Went for a spin around the Cooley mountains on Sunday. I feel very strong (for me). My Abdutor is better but still a bit iffy still. I have no problem climbing out of the saddle but grinding while sitting down doesn't feel 100%.

Went to the Physio again on Monday and he has moved attention to the quads while still addressing the abductor. I have tried foam rollering my quads before and it brings a tear to the eye. It's very hard to bring that discomfort upon yourself so hopefully my physio will relieve the worst of it and I can maintain myself with the foam roller in future.

Hope to race before the season is done and arrive in 2014 with a totally new pair of legs.

darjeeling

Having followed this thread for a while, I would distinguish between what seem well-founded recommendations of paleo (and indeed other diets) and other elements of paleo diets that I don't think yet have the same evidential basis.

Robert Lustig, like John Yudkin before him, raises the problems of added sugar, mainly due to the effects of fructose metabolism. Fructose passes under the radar of the normal appetite regulatory hormones, causes production of triglycerides and LDL cholesterol in the liver and can lead to obesity, atherosclerosis, insulin resistant diabetes, fatty liver disease and gout
This is shown by epidemiological studies and experimental dietary manipulation in both lab organisms and in humans, and is underpinned by an understanding of the biochemical and physiological mechanisms.

Avoiding added sugar is a key part of paleo diets, but it is also compatible with other diets, such as the widely advocated Mediterranean diet. Specific to paleo diets are reduction or avoidance of whole grains and legumes, and preference for saturated fats over unsaturated fats. Given that the world's peoples have eaten very different diets for thousands of years, with contrasting emphases on grains, pulses, different types of fats, proteins etc, and without showing the diseases of the modern Western industrial diet, we have reason to think that we can live healthily on a range of pre-industrial diets. I would want to see a lot more scientific evidence - along the lines of the anti-sugar evidence - to convince me that recommendations unique to paleo diets are contributing to health.

For myself, I've eaten a more Med style diet for many years. That means home prepared food with lots of seasonal veg, fruit, whole grains, pulses, fish, olive oil, nuts and seeds, with meat maybe a couple of times a week, and very little processed food or added sugars. I include a little more milk and eggs than the traditional Med diet, but overall I'm not far off it. Though I'm a sample of one, I think it's worked fine for me. I've always been a healthy weight despite never counting a calory, and I can't say I've experienced any of the other issues described in this thread that have prompted people to adopt more paleo style diets. I'll keep a look out for new research, but for now, I think I'll probably keep on with what seems to be working for me.

petethedrummer

darjeeling wrote: »

Given that the world's peoples have eaten very different diets for thousands of years, with contrasting emphases on grains, pulses, different types of fats, proteins etc, and without showing the diseases of the modern Western industrial diet, we have reason to think that we can live healthily on a range of pre-industrial diets. I would want to see a lot more scientific evidence - along the lines of the anti-sugar evidence - to convince
me that recommendations unique to paleo diets are contributing to health.

I fully agree with you.

I don't think it is possible to go full paleo unless you are very driven or orthorexic. But even saying that, as far as I can tell there isn't one 'paleo' diet. Those heavily involved in it can't agree on what actually constitutes 'paleo'. So I think it is best served as a template and a basis to investigate foods that may be causing a problem to health.

Stuff like dairy, legumes and certain grains will probably forever be debated. All foods probably contain some substances that cause certain people problems. So it's probably wise for people to read up and make their own mind based on what they know about their own bodies.

Chris Kresser is one of the more rounded on all this with his evidence based approach. And this approach I am taking. I have a problem with sugar/starches and wheat. And I thrive on fat. That sugar is unhealthy is fairly straight forward but I needed evidence to justify my elimination of wheat and increase of fat. Through this wider paleo/evolutionary health world I found it, whereas the conventional advice is that wheat is very healthy unless your are a coeliac and animal fat will kill you within a week.

If I thought I had a problem with dairy I would investigate the evidence and decide whether to eliminate it. I have read up on it and I know why it could be a problem but if it causes me no problems there's no point in giving it up because a caveman didn't have it. And there's no point limiting my food choices on the off chance I might live 4 days longer.

Anyway I'm NOT a paleo, I borrow from them. But the paleo world is a good jumping off point if you want to investigate nutrition. Certainly better than listening to the conventional industry funded advice.

petethedrummer

Here is some Lustig.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCDeso6SVOI

petethedrummer

And some William Davis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbBURnqYVzw

Ole Rodrigo

Interesting article on maintaining body weight, HFLC and carbohydrates in athletics.

http://racingweight.com/2013/03/12/how-pro-athletes-manage-their-weight/

petethedrummer

ror_74 wrote: »

Interesting article on maintaining body weight, HFLC and carbohydrates in athletics.

http://racingweight.com/2013/03/12/how-pro-athletes-manage-their-weight/

Those are elite athletes though and most of us reading are not elite athletes. I would argue that we need to stop listening to what they do as it does not apply to the vast majority of us.

ROK ON

petethedrummer wrote: »

Those are elite athletes though and most of us reading are not elite athletes. I would argue that we need to stop listening to what they do as it does not apply to the vast majority of us.

But then we will never be elite. Is the goal to remain average, or in my case mediocre?

AstraMonti

ROK ON wrote: »

But then we will never be elite. Is the goal to remain average, or in my case mediocre?

The goal is to reach the top of your (mine) mediocrity. Unless you win the lotto and you can afford to train 50 hours a week

AstraMonti

petethedrummer wrote: »

Here is some Lustig.

Thanks again for another very interesting video. The wow point of it for me was on the Q&A at the end where he said that fruit juice is slightly worse than a can of soda as it has more fructose gram for gram.

CramCycle

Damn children, stuck to it fairly tight for 5 days. Blood sugars have been brilliant, like I am not even Diabetic, my insulin levels have dropped to under half of what I was taking.

Today my daughter left out her home made runny caramel, chocolate and biscuit blackjack.

Today I fell off the wagon.

colm_gti

I'm going pinting tonight - bad!

As a result, I'll be eating a fried breakfast tomorrow morning - good!

CramCycle

colm_gti wrote: »

I'm going pinting tonight - bad!

As a result, I'll be eating a fried breakfast tomorrow morning - good!

So basically this diet is the same as having a weekend every day of the week

colm_gti

I'm almost 2 weeks into an extreme LCHF switch now and feeling bloody fantastic!

Bodyfat has visibly dropped, how that converts to % I'm not sure, I was low at 10% to begin with, but I've definitely lost more!
I feel more energetic mid-day.
I'm sleeping like a rock and waking feeling well rested.
I don't get hungry during long, relatively intense spins.
I don't get hungry between breakfast, lunch and dinner.
I haven't farted in 2 weeks.

I did find that after a week in I was experiencing some chest discomfort on my right side, coupled with a very low blood pressure (110/52). This turned out to be unbalanced electrolytes, following the diuretic effect of eliminating so many carbs and not increasing my salt intake. A cup of water with lo-salt (potassium and sodium) cleared it up and I've been feeling great ever since!

colm_gti

CramCycle wrote: »

So basically this diet is the same as having a weekend every day of the week

My parents and gf are disgusted waking up to the sight of me frying rashers and eggs in butter every morning. I used to be disgusted at the sight of my parents doing it one morning a week....how the tables have turned

Soarer

I'll have been doing keto for a month this Monday. Not 100% religiously, but trying my best.

Sausages and rashers for breakfast. Normally not hungry until evening time, but I try to get some nuts into me in the afternoon. Might have a few streaky rashers in the evening.
Have the odd square of chocolate, and still drink my coke zero. Have a day off at the weekend where I allow myself carbs. Hoping to get to a stage where I won't have the carb day, but cutting 7 days down to 1 is a good start for me.

Like Colm mentioned above, I don't slump in the afternoons anymore. I sleep very well now, and the wife doesn't notice me snoring anymore. The work colleagues are definitely judging me, but I don't think they're ready to be unplugged yet!

Best part is, as of this morning, I'm down 9.5lbs and I'm eating like a king. It's certainly my kind of lifestyle.

AstraMonti

Any recipes for lchf energy bars or alternative foods you can carry on the bike?

ford2600

AstraMonti wrote: »

Any recipes for lchf energy bars or alternative foods you can carry on the bike?

Nice olives, nuts.
Also train your body to burn all that fat your eating.

AstraMonti

I am sitting for lunch with my colleagues in the work canteen. A guy who sometimes sits with us comes over with the stuff that he has brought from home. He tells us that he needs to eat healthy as he was prognosed with type two diabetes. So what he eats? White bread ham and cheese sandwich, an apple and a banana, something that will send your insulin levels up in the sky if I am not mistaken. I felt the need to tell him so I started talking about the lchf diet and send him a few links about it. His first reaction was to tell me that no diet with high fat intake could be good for anyone, I sent him more links, he hasn't come back to me yet.

Ole Rodrigo

Just something of interest to note regarding type 2 diabetes. Of all the licensed medical centres treating this condition with nutrition, none are doing so with the HFLC method, almost all of them are using plants ( fruit, veg, nuts and seeds )

The only diet related method of reversing Type 2 has been a low calorie high nutrient approach.

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm

CramCycle

AstraMonti wrote: »

I am sitting for lunch with my colleagues in the work canteen. A guy who sometimes sits with us comes over with the stuff that he has brought from home. He tells us that he needs to eat healthy as he was prognosed with type two diabetes. So what he eats? White bread ham and cheese sandwich, an apple and a banana, something that will send your insulin levels up in the sky if I am not mistaken. I felt the need to tell him so I started talking about the lchf diet and send him a few links about it. His first reaction was to tell me that no diet with high fat intake could be good for anyone, I sent him more links, he hasn't come back to me yet.

Send him links on the Newcastle diet, it is alot easier to comprehend for many people and is having good responses, it is basically a reduced carb diet if I remember right, would be helpful.

To be fair, his lunch does not seem the worst in the world. It is only 40-50grams of carbs, compare it to what he was having before, then make judgements.

AstraMonti

Ah I am not telling him what (or not) to eat by any means, I just gave him something else to look as well.