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Options if landlord doesn't want to register us at the PRTB

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  • 19-06-2013 11:45am
    #1
    joostl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭


    Hi all,

    I moved in a new apartment a few months ago and up to this day the landlord still hasn't registered the tenancy with the PRTB. Normally I wouldn't mind this but I need the registration letter due to it being a key requirement for my GF's visa. (normal proof off address isn't enough based on information i received)

    Can we break the lease on this ground?

    Also if i report him to the PRTB how long would it take before they force would force him to register us? We quite like the apartment and don't want to leave it.

    If we manage to finally get him to register, how would i turn get around to the PRTB to add my girlfriend to the tenancy as at the moment only my name is on the lease.


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    #2
    discodavie
    Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭discodavie


    you could offer him the 90 quid....

    But in all seriousness

    It doesnt affect your rights only his ability to take you to the board,

    Was property registered before ?


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    #3
    joostl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭joostl


    discodavie wrote: »
    you could offer him the 90 quid....

    But in all seriousness

    It doesnt affect your rights only his ability to take you to the board,

    Was property registered before ?

    no never registered before, im not to worried about my rights. But a PTRB registration is a hard requirement for the visa application of my GF.


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    #4
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,990 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    If he's not PTRB registered you he may not be paying tax. Insist on being registered with PTRB or you'll report him to revenue. If he does register you with PTRB report him anyway, if he doesn't I'd hazard he won't be willing to take things legal so move out and report him.


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    #5
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Del2005 wrote: »
    If he's not PTRB registered you he may not be paying tax. Insist on being registered with PTRB or you'll report him to revenue. If he does register you with PTRB report him anyway, if he doesn't I'd hazard he won't be willing to take things legal so move out and report him.
    There is absolutely no connection to the PRTB and revenue. It is wild speculation to even suggest not registering with the PRTB means tax fraud. Nobody responds to threats well.

    In this case I would simply state the facts to the LL. You require the registration and will be contacting the PRTB to get registered. Not a threat just stating the facts.

    FYI the tax office do not investigate every random contact informing them of alleged tax fraud. It makes it a useless threat from the get go.


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    #6
    ABajaninCork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,411 ✭✭✭ABajaninCork


    Would not a copy of the lease satisfy Immigration? That would have the name and address on it.


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    #7
    joostl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭joostl


    ABajaninCork wrote: »
    Would not a copy of the lease satisfy Immigration? That would have the name and address on it.

    i asked this to my lawyer also and apparently not.

    Ill just keep on pressing the issue with the landlord

    thanks all


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    #8
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,379 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    So a signed legal document is now not evidence enough for a lease but a letter from an QUANGO that anyone could get for €90 is? I suspect your lawyer is wrong in this case.

    Did your landlord actually confirm he wasn't registered? Often it takes the PRTB a long time to get themselves sorted out.


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    #9
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Report him to the PRTB for non-registration and let them deal with it? If I recall correctly its a fairly hefty fine (€2500 I think?) for not registering a tenancy; the threat of that might kickstart him into action.


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    #10
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,948 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Ray Palmer wrote: »

    FYI the tax office do not investigate every random contact informing them of alleged tax fraud. It makes it a useless threat from the get go.

    FYI of late they take tax allegations quite seriously in relation to property.


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    #11
    Citycap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 200 ✭✭Citycap


    While they have taken their time about it the PRTB have commenced prosecuting landlords for non registration. The Revenue may not automatically pick up on this but really they should. Non registration is a fair indication that a landlord is likely dodging the tax as well. Might as well go after the serial offender as anyone else.


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    #12
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    djimi wrote: »
    Report him to the PRTB for non-registration and let them deal with it? If I recall correctly its a fairly hefty fine (€2500 I think?) for not registering a tenancy; the threat of that might kickstart him into action.
    Lets be clear a maximum fine is not the fine they will get. The reality is they don't really fine people unless they refuse to pay once contacted like most other fines of this type. They will contact him to register give him plenty of notice and it is very unlikely he will be fined other than a late fee and they often waive these types of things.

    I really wonder are people living in the real world because they assume that once any rule is broken the full weight of punishments are brought down. It doesn't happen unless you really set out to not to engage.


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    #13
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,948 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    Lets be clear a maximum fine is not the fine they will get. The reality is they don't really fine people unless they refuse to pay once contacted like most other fines of this type. They will contact him to register give him plenty of notice and it is very unlikely he will be fined other than a late fee and they often waive these types of things.

    I really wonder are people living in the real world because they assume that once any rule is broken the full weight of punishments are brought down. It doesn't happen unless you really set out to not to engage.

    the system was setup to make incompliant people compliant and its the primary function was to insure revenue had some avenue to gain tax compliance on all the property that was bought during the boom years.


    Although it would appear from your posts you come across as promoting non compliance (it appears) not saying you do.


    PRTB is there for a reason, every landlord should be on it. Its not 'okay' not to be registered.


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    #14
    Citycap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 200 ✭✭Citycap


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    Lets be clear a maximum fine is not the fine they will get. The reality is they don't really fine people unless they refuse to pay once contacted like most other fines of this type. They will contact him to register give him plenty of notice and it is very unlikely he will be fined other than a late fee and they often waive these types of things.

    I really wonder are people living in the real world because they assume that once any rule is broken the full weight of punishments are brought down. It doesn't happen unless you really set out to not to engage.

    Have a read>

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/state-taking-landlords-to-court-over-registration-1.955897


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    #15
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    Lets be clear a maximum fine is not the fine they will get. The reality is they don't really fine people unless they refuse to pay once contacted like most other fines of this type. They will contact him to register give him plenty of notice and it is very unlikely he will be fined other than a late fee and they often waive these types of things.

    I really wonder are people living in the real world because they assume that once any rule is broken the full weight of punishments are brought down. It doesn't happen unless you really set out to not to engage.

    Whatever way they go about it, if it ultimately leads to him getting the property registered then its mission accomplished.

    I said that there is a fairly hefty fine for not registering, which there is. I would have thought that it would be pretty obvious that the full fine was not going to be applied at first warning of the first offence, but perhaps you needed me to be clearer about that.


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    #16
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Citycap wrote: »
    Have a read>

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/state-taking-landlords-to-court-over-registration-1.955897

    Did you read it?

    In the cases of the landlords prosecuted this week, she said the board had given the individuals several opportunities to comply with the legislation and register. “When they still failed to do so we moved to prosecute them,” she added.

    This is the point. It isn't a straight forward instant fine. 22 out of 43,000 letters sent out or of the 96,400 getting rent allowance. This pretty much proves my point. Some of these will be addressed before it even goes to court.

    The revenue do not jump every time they get a claim of tax fraud. I know because I worked there for a number of months. Claims they are focusing on property now and react straight away is just silly.

    The PRTB register was set-up to fund the PRTB nothing to do with tax at all. The fact they exchange information now doesn't change what the PRTB charge is for.

    You are completely kidding yourself if you think otherwise about revenue or the PRTB.

    The OP wants their letter best way is to go to the PRTB no need to assume they are dodging tax nor threaten the LL.


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    #17
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    joostl wrote: »
    Hi all,

    I moved in a new apartment a few months ago and up to this day the landlord still hasn't registered the tenancy with the PRTB. Normally I wouldn't mind this but I need the registration letter due to it being a key requirement for my GF's visa. (normal proof off address isn't enough based on information i received)

    Can we break the lease on this ground?

    Also if i report him to the PRTB how long would it take before they force would force him to register us? We quite like the apartment and don't want to leave it.

    If we manage to finally get him to register, how would i turn get around to the PRTB to add my girlfriend to the tenancy as at the moment only my name is on the lease.
    It is not the PRTB who adds names to a tenancy, it is the landlord. If you are checking the PRTB website to see if the tenancy is registered, it often takes many months to get up to date - your tenancy may well be registered.

    Have you notified the landlord that there are now two people living in the apartment. This is a legal requirement. If you haven't, you may be in breach of your obligations and the landlord may be able to evict you.

    It is a tenancy that is registered. Part of the information is the names of the tenants. As you are the only "legal" tenant, only your name would appear on the registration form. If other people enter into a contract with the landlord then he must notify the PRTB of a change / addition in tenants.


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    #18
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    Lets be clear a maximum fine is not the fine they will get. The reality is they don't really fine people unless they refuse to pay once contacted like most other fines of this type. They will contact him to register give him plenty of notice and it is very unlikely he will be fined other than a late fee and they often waive these types of things.

    I really wonder are people living in the real world because they assume that once any rule is broken the full weight of punishments are brought down. It doesn't happen unless you really set out to not to engage.

    Or to phrase it another way, the PRTB to all intents and purposes encourage the flouting of their rules by "letting people off" the fines that apply when those people are caught after ignoring the rules.

    Is it any wonder the rules are flouted then when there is no downside to doing so?


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    #19
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    View wrote: »
    Or to phrase it another way, the PRTB to all intents and purposes encourage the flouting of their rules by "letting people off" the fines that apply when those people are caught after ignoring the rules.

    Is it any wonder the rules are flouted then when there is no downside to doing so?
    The same applies to TV licences and similar fines. Why LL have to fund for a bias system against them in the first place is the real question. I pay plenty of tax on rental revenue no need for this or the household charge which is actually a property tax with the household paying nothing. They introduce that later

    I would love it if revenue actually caught all cheats but seeing the system at work I won't hold my breath. The system is too complex


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    #20
    joostl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭joostl


    odds_on wrote: »
    It is not the PRTB who adds names to a tenancy, it is the landlord. If you are checking the PRTB website to see if the tenancy is registered, it often takes many months to get up to date - your tenancy may well be registered.

    Have you notified the landlord that there are now two people living in the apartment. This is a legal requirement. If you haven't, you may be in breach of your obligations and the landlord may be able to evict you.

    It is a tenancy that is registered. Part of the information is the names of the tenants. As you are the only "legal" tenant, only your name would appear on the registration form. If other people enter into a contract with the landlord then he must notify the PRTB of a change / addition in tenants.

    The LL knows my gf is living there also. I'll give him one more chance and if he doesn't reply I'll fill the form @ http://www.prtb.ie/tenants/is-my-tenancy-registered-

    Is it correct to assume that by filling in this "registration enforcement referral form". The LL will be contacted by the PRTB to ask him to register the tenancy?


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    #21
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    joostl wrote: »
    The LL knows my gf is living there also. I'll give him one more chance and if he doesn't reply I'll fill the form @ http://www.prtb.ie/tenants/is-my-tenancy-registered-

    Is it correct to assume that by filling in this "registration enforcement referral form". The LL will be contacted by the PRTB to ask him to register the tenancy?

    That doesn't mean she is a registered tenant and on the lease.

    Yes he will be contacted by PRTB. It won't happen with any great speed. For the sake of your application you may be better off moving. Sad but true


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    #22
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    That doesn't mean she is a registered tenant and on the lease.

    Yes he will be contacted by PRTB. It won't happen with any great speed. For the sake of your application you may be better off moving. Sad but true

    I think so too, there are 2 steps needed here, LL to register tenancy, which he will have to do 'eventually', and secondly getting a probably p*ssed off LL to add your partner to the tenancy, which he might not do.
    Easiest might be to rent a new place and ensure your partner is on the tenancy from the getgo.


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