Fine Gael TD Brian Walsh will not support abortion bill; political suicide?

kennryyr

Fine Gael TD Brian Walsh has said he will go against his party wishes and will not support the abortion bill as it passes through the Dail.

This will effectively end his political career and he has mentioned that another 10 Fine Gael TD's might follow in his footsteps.

Thoughts?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0619/457515-abortion-legislation/

TheSB

Meanwhile 5,000 young women are being forced to go abroad to seek a termination. These religious nutjobs can go and fock off.

Manach

A brave person and a rare politician who is willing to stand on principle in defence of the life of the unborn.

golfball37

Manach wrote: »

A brave person and a rare politician who is willing to stand on principle in defence of the life of the unborn.

More like someone who knows John O'Mahony will be in his constituency next time around so he has to do something.

charlemont

Manach wrote: »

A brave person and a rare politician who is willing to stand on principle in defence of the life of the unborn.

Nothing brave about denying people medical help if necessary.

XxMCRxBabyxX

kennryyr wrote: »

Fine Gael TD Brian Walsh has said he will go against his party wishes and will not support the abortion bill as it passes through the Dail.

This will effectively end his political career and he has mentioned that another 10 Fine Gael TD's might follow in his footsteps.

Thoughts?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0619/457515-abortion-legislation/

While I don't agree with his stance at all I do have to respect him for standing up against his party for his beliefs. It is a brave decision for himself and hid career. I just have to hope that too many don't follow him either.

If this was the other way round and he was fighting against an "anti-abortion" bill we would all be supporting him.

Robbo

If I were more cynical, I'd note that given FG drops in the polls and that the selection process bloodbath that's likely to ensue in Galway-West when Mayo South is rolled into it, it's never been a better time to seek expulsion from the party on a matter of principle...

kennryyr

I find it quite odd that he would be willing to end his career in politics over something that can potentially save the lives of mothers.

Whatever his religious beliefs may be, it is a matter of principle that he as an elected representative of the people, would be willing to give up all that he has worked for throughout the years over this simple bill.

As many in Ireland have been outspoken in the belief that this bill will open the floodgates for "abortion on demand", it is astonishing that he would go against his parties wishes and is seemingly supporting this absurd notion.

BobTheNihilist

He's looking for the Granny/Grandad vote, and he'll get it, because theyre the age that vote the most. I serioulsy doubt he gives a toss about abortions or lack thereof, and he's just grandstanding to be seen to be doing something. His thoughts are on his political future and not the future of any zygote/foetus or whatever.

sooner we have full UK style abortion on demand in Ireland the better. its not the 1950s anymore. If you dont want an abortion dont have one.

goose2005

What's the point in having a "political career" if you never express any opinion, just keep your head down for decades in the hope that you might drift to the top, and then once you find yourself there you realise you have no idea what to do? (cf. Enda Kenny)

And it's pretty pathetic that merely opposing one bill, in a coalition with an 70-vote majority in the Dail, is enough to brand someone a dangerous rebel.

(i'm pro-choice and Walsh is a moron, but that doesn't change that our parliament is badly broken)

Bobby42

Manach wrote: »

A brave person and a rare politician who is willing to stand on principle in defence of the life of the unborn.

He's not really defending the life of the unborn though. If he really wanted to do that he'd have to advocate for the removal of pregnant women's right to travel.

Mr.Micro

Its the prerogative of Brain Walsh to vote on what he believes to be right with regards to the bill. The proposed bill is a step in the right direction, to at least have some clarification with regard to the law, for medics and above all the women who are affected.

ShooterSF

If he is unable to do his job and legislate as our constitution requires him to, especially a part of the constitution that has been kept in place by the public in 2 referendums, then he should resign as a TD. Our democracy is built on the idea that we elect people with some power and that they in turn answer to our constitution. If they can't do such a job they shouldn't be a TD.

InchicoreDude

ShooterSF wrote: »

If he is unable to do his job and legislate as our constitution requires him to, especially a part of the constitution that has been kept in place by the public in 2 referendums, then he should resign as a TD. Our democracy is built on the idea that we elect people with some power and that they in turn answer to our constitution. If they can't do such a job they shouldn't be a TD.

But doesnt the bill also include a part that has been rejected in referendums? The suicide part or am I getting confused with it. So many flipping abortion information, it is difficult to keep up.

****

To be honest, I am well fed up of hearing all these extremist views on abortion. One crowd calling the other murderers. Such extreme views are rarely ever productive views.

I think this should be a free vote. The reason I think it should be a free vote is that very few TDs would have joined their party due to that party's stance on abortion. It is a very personal opinion. The only reason that a free vote is not being allowed is because the government are terrified they will not pass the bill. And if they do not pass it, then all their claims about being the government who will legislate for the X case will turn out to be false. However, is it really correct that a bill is passed when there is a fear amongst some of the government TDs that they have to vote in the way their leader tells them? That is actually threading very very closely to a dictatorship. This differs to other issues like property tax etc. because they are typical political issues, this is not.

If I was a TD, I think I would vote to pass the bill (from what I know of it and I havent read it in detail). But I can absolutely understand why some TDs want to go against their party on this.

TheSB

InchicoreDude wrote: »

But doesnt the bill also include a part that has been rejected in referendums? The suicide part or am I getting confused with it. So many flipping abortion information, it is difficult to keep up.

The proposed 25th Amendment to Constitution would have restricted abortion on the grounds of suicide but it was rejected by the people in 2002.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_Bill,_2002_(Ireland)

I think there has been too many referendums on this issue that the consitution is in a utter mess.

hfallada

Isnt the point of a TD to represent the people he elected and no his own personal values? With a majority of people in favour, I dont know what he wants to achieve other than free publicity.

The legalisation wont allow on demand abortion but it doesnt make a difference as if a person wants an abortion. It is only 40 mins away on a flight

TheSB

hfallada wrote: »

Isnt the point of a TD to represent the people he elected and no his own personal values? With a majority of people in favour, I dont know what he wants to achieve other than free publicity.

No TD's should not legislate based on opinion polls, all that we would have then is mob rule and anarchy. People in his constituency should just remember this decision and vote accordingly in the next election.

InchicoreDude

hfallada wrote: »

Isnt the point of a TD to represent the people he elected and no his own personal values? With a majority of people in favour, I dont know what he wants to achieve other than free publicity.

The legalisation wont allow on demand abortion but it doesnt make a difference as if a person wants an abortion. It is only 40 mins away on a flight

But how do you know that the majority of people in his consituency favour the legislation???? They may not. The only way to determine that is to have a referendum.

Also, at the time of the last election, I dont think abortion was such a big election issue. What any politician / party asked about their stance on abortion in the run up to the last election?

It is an issue now because of the Savitha case.

hfallada

InchicoreDude wrote: »

But how do you know that the majority of people in his consituency favour the legislation???? They may not. The only way to determine that is to have a referendum.

Also, at the time of the last election, I dont think abortion was such a big election issue. What any politician / party asked about their stance on abortion in the run up to the last election?

It is an issue now because of the Savitha case.

Irish times said about 80% of Irish people support it. So you can imagine a majority support it. We have already had a referendum and legalisation is putting what people voted for into law.

Why do other people care about whether someone else whats an abortion. Its not a decision that is taken lightly. Unless your in the position that there is a risk of you dying from the pregnancy I dont think people should decide what others can or cant do.

bmaxi

The people have had their say on the abortion issue and that should be an end to it. TDs have a duty to legislate, while they are free to have their own personal opinions or religious beliefs, they had the same opportunity as the rest of us to register them at the referendum.

Robbo

It's been speculated in the local papers that FG will move John O'Mahoney to the rejigged Galway West next time out. With Sean Kyne comanding a sizeable Connemara vote, it's entirely possible that Walsh sees the only means of survival as going independent and duking it out for the city vote. Splitting from the government line on abortion is an ideal way to put some distance between himself and Nolan.

nuac

Robbo wrote: »

It's been speculated in the local papers that FG will move John O'Mahoney to the rejigged Galway West next time out. With Sean Kyne comanding a sizeable Connemara vote, it's entirely possible that Walsh sees the only means of survival as going independent and duking it out for the city vote. Splitting from the government line on abortion is an ideal way to put some distance between himself and Nolan.

Lots of pros and cons there for O'Mahoney to consider.

The number of voters moving from Mayo is about 6000.

O'Cuiv at Clonbur is right on the edge of the new area. O'Mahoney is a long way away at B'hadreen. He would have to compete against Kyne for those votes, and prise other former FG voters in present WG area away from Kyne and Walsh

Red Kev

I reckon most of those who vote against the bill, if they are expelled, will be quietly readmitted to the party before the next election.

nesf

There really is nothing wrong with him doing this if he strongly disagrees with it. If his voters disagree strongly with him doing this they'll take care of him next election. If they return him they obviously agree with him or don't feel strongly on the issue.

Personally I'm very happy if they vote against, it gives me a short list of people never to vote for again and I'm sure there are other people who are doing the same with people who will vote for it.

Nodin

InchicoreDude wrote: »

But doesnt the bill also include a part that has been rejected in referendums? The suicide part or am I getting confused with it. So many flipping abortion information, it is difficult to keep up.
...........

Two attempts via referenda were made to remove suicide as grounds for abortion - one in 1992 and the other in 2002. Both were rejected. Given that, the whole 'free vote' thing becomes a murky issue. In addition and more generally, its a bit much to expect strict adherence to the whip to be dropped in the middle of a term, given the vast shift that would indicate in political culture. Personally I'd favour a freedom of conscience clause, but it would have to be an election issue, and weighed against the right of the electorate to have their votes acted upon.

kabakuyu

Well,Galway West might be better off when Brian and Fidelma are gone.

OCorcrainn

charlemont wrote: »

Nothing brave about denying people medical help if necessary.

So abortions are medical treatments now and anyone who disagrees is just a religious nutjob who should not be listened to?

So tell me,since you say abortion is a medical treatment, what does it treat?

OCorcrainn

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Its the prerogative of Brain Walsh to vote on what he believes to be right with regards to the bill. The proposed bill is a step in the right direction, to at least have some clarification with regard to the law, for medics and above all the women who are affected.

So having a bill that allows for abortion all the way to the end of term is a step in the right direction?

nesf

OCorcrainn wrote: »

So abortions are medical treatments now and anyone who disagrees is just a religious nutjob who should not be listened to?

So tell me,since you say abortion is a medical treatment, what does it treat?

OCorcrainn wrote: »

So having a bill that allows for abortion all the way to the end of term is a step in the right direction?

Hey, if we could keep this a thread about the ramifications of going against the whip on this issue for a politician that'd be great. Having it turn into yet another rehash of the debate on the Bill is really not interesting, we already have that going on in several threads. I agree with the issue being raised, this isn't the place for it here.

Mr.Micro

OCorcrainn wrote: »

So having a bill that allows for abortion all the way to the end of term is a step in the right direction?

Yes, a step in the right direction with regards to the law. Whether one agrees with it or not is a moral issue.

ethical

Politicians that stand on their own two feet must be admired!,whither you agree with their stance or not.I note from this evenings news that a number of the so called 'no' side on the Government benches have changed their mind (and possible beliefs as well!).In the case of one of the politicians to vote 'no' would mean the end of a political career and a tilt at Europe.......One needs to seriously look at this particular TD and really see who does he really represent ,his constituency or his own pocket? The answer,considering the same TDs stance on the abortion issue, has to be his own pocket,money,money and more money!

Cerco

John O'Mahony changed his mind because he (finally) discovered that the people voted "yes" in the referendum. RTE news @6pm.

Michelle Mulherin will vote yes because otherwise she iould be chucked out of Fine Gael.

Staying on the gravy train is more important to them than their declared conscience.

ethical

ethical wrote: »

Politicians that stand on their own two feet must be admired!

Absolutely. Always nice to see one lamb, break from the flock.

I despise political parties. Throwing a member out, for having an alternative perspective? Total bollocks.

Banjo String

Cerco wrote: »

Michelle Mulherin will vote yes because otherwise she iould be chucked out of Fine Gael.

Bible bashing nut job when it suits, but when it comes down to her party or principles, Michelle has proved that she's only 'good living' for a living.

Dropping moral principles and beliefs in favour of a hefty salary and expense system seems to be the way forward for the FG party.

InchicoreDude

Cerco wrote: »

John O'Mahony changed his mind because he (finally) discovered that the people voted "yes" in the referendum. RTE news @6pm.

Michelle Mulherin will vote yes because otherwise she iould be chucked out of Fine Gael.

Staying on the gravy train is more important to them than their declared conscience.

In fairness, the referendum result is a perfectly valid reason for a TD to vote for the bill.

But Mulherin's openly admitting she is voting Yes as otherwise she will be kicked out is political suicide!

There was an interesting article in one of Sunday papers lat weekend where it suggested that when you have the likes of Keaveney, Shorthall & Creighton 'ousted' from their parties, that there is a very big opportunity for a new party to be formed.

hmmm

We shouldn't elect politicians purely as transcribers of public opinion, we should expect them to be able to think for themselves. If they feel strongly enough about something, it's right that they should oppose their party (and possibly their own constituents).

The risk they face is they don't get voted back in - and in Lucinda's case, I'm sure the people of what is the probably the most liberal constituency in Ireland may be a bit shocked to find out what her views on these sort of issues are. Across the world it's become clear that the generations that are in their teens, 20s and 30s are strongly weighted towards social liberalism and fiscal conservatism, and I think as a young(ish) politician you're going to find life hard if that's not your position.

Fine Gael as a party are also in a spot of bother, with a social liberal and conservative wing roughly matched. However I think they're best placed of all the major parties to capture this new vote, if they can figure out what they want to be.

questionmark?

Regardless of your views on abortion a T.D. has decided to vote with his conscience and I say kudos to him even if it is the end of his career. I would say the same if he was voting in favour of it if his party said not too.

Brussels Sprout

hmmm wrote: »

Across the world it's become clear that the generations that are in their teens, 20s and 30s are strongly weighted towards social liberalism and fiscal conservatism,

really? I know it's like that on here but generally young people seem to be liberal on fiscal issues as well (until round about time that they start earning their own money and paying taxes and realise the'll have to pay for all the hand-outs themselves)

Cerco wrote: »

Michelle Mulherin will vote yes because otherwise she iould be chucked out of Fine Gael.

As the 4th FG TD in the Mayo constituency surely she had absolutely nothing to lose by breaking ranks. So not only is she gutless but she's politically naive to boot.

ethical

Herd TD Mulherin on the radio today,in one sense she was honest in saying that the reason she sided with the Whip was that she was afraid she'd loose her 'nice Dáil package.The interviewer gave her a hard time.Yet he generally goes softly,softly with TD O'Mahony on such issues. Mulherin took the flack for O'Mahony.If he was really honest he would tell the people the real reason that he sided with the Whip (and against his own beliefs) was due to the fact that his DáIL package and possibility of going to Europe (if they could get Jim Higgins to retire) was gone for ever more.Listening on line (and far away!) to the local Midwest Radio station,TD O'Mahony would seem to get more than a fair crack of the whip any time he wishes to say something.....perhaps its because of the GAA connection,yet the same radio station is part funded by the Catholic church!!! Wonder what they make of him siding with the Whip and against his beliefs?

hatrickpatrick

F*ck party whips. Whips should be left in the bedroom where they belong. :pac:

Cerco

InchicoreDude wrote: »

In fairness, the referendum result is a perfectly valid reason for a TD to vote for the bill.

But Mulherin's openly admitting she is voting Yes as otherwise she will be kicked out is political suicide!

There was an interesting article in one of Sunday papers lat weekend where it suggested that when you have the likes of Keaveney, Shorthall & Creighton 'ousted' from their parties, that there is a very big opportunity for a new party to be formed.

I agree. However is it unreasonable to expect our TDs to be familiar with the referendum result (2002)? O'Mahony supposedly just became aware in the last few days. Hence his change of mind.
No point in commenting further on Mulherin.
On the new part issue Icannot see how they would fund it. Neither do I see a common policy between those candidates.

Sand

Looks like Creighton has fallen on her sword. She's my local TD and I would admire her principled stance, only I cant help but think that if she was willing to take a hit to represent her principles on this issue then it implies that she fully agreed and supported the government policy up until this point. So she wont be getting even a transfer from me next time around.

It's irritating that this talk about free votes and TDs having to have the ability to be responsible to their own conscience only becomes audible when it comes to an issue relating to old school Catholicism. I didn't see Creighton get all that bothered about some more troubling government measures, but a vaguely coherent response to the X case is her red line issue apparently. I'm fully in favour of abolishing the party whip in the Dail but I'm disgusted by the likes of Creighton who will happily fall into line on all issues unless the Catholic church is offended. Good riddance.

EDIT: Looks like I wont have to worry. Apparently Creighton was warned by the members of her local organisation in the constituency earlier this week that they will not support her in another election if she voted against the X case bill. That should essentially be the end of her career as a political representative of the Catholic Church.

nice_guy80

Sand wrote: »

Looks like Creighton has fallen on her sword. She's my local TD and I would admire her principled stance, only I cant help but think that if she was willing to take a hit to represent her principles on this issue then it implies that she fully agreed and supported the government policy up until this point. So she wont be getting even a transfer from me next time around.

It's irritating that this talk about free votes and TDs having to have the ability to be responsible to their own conscience only becomes audible when it comes to an issue relating to old school Catholicism. I didn't see Creighton get all that bothered about some more troubling government measures, but a vaguely coherent response to the X case is her red line issue apparently. I'm fully in favour of abolishing the party whip in the Dail but I'm disgusted by the likes of Creighton who will happily fall into line on all issues unless the Catholic church is offended. Good riddance.

EDIT: Looks like I wont have to worry. Apparently Creighton was warned by the members of her local organisation in the constituency earlier this week that they will not support her in another election if she voted against the X case bill. That should essentially be the end of her career as a political representative of the Catholic Church.

religion should never come into it

we're meant to be a secular state.

if she was principled, she'd have voted no because the legislation was faulty. nothing to do with moral or religious beliefs.

EDIt: actually delighted to see her gone as a junior minister

jhegarty

Didn't she only vote against Amendment 56 and not the rest of bill ?

bmaxi

Good riddance to Creighton, another grandstanding publicity seeker. I'd say her next step will to form her own party, where hopefully she'll be joined by similarly minded religious political dinosaurs, it'll make ticking the ignore box that much easier at the next election.

nuac

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

re?


As the 4th FG TD in the Mayo constituency surely she had absolutely nothing to lose by breaking ranks. So not only is she gutless but she's politically naive to boot.

I live in Mayo.

If MM left FG she would lose quite a lot of votes. A local councillor who polls well would get the FG nomination in the area,

She would have no help from other FG councillors, organisation, or activists. Would have to do her own posters and advertising.

I don't think there are enough pro-life voters to make up what she would lose.

If she wanted to stay in politics, she had no option.

Surprised that FG did no allow a free vote or agree some of the amendments requested.

Under orders from the smaller party, Labour?

ethical

Did FG really want Mulherin,if what my colleague in the West tells me is true, didn't the Enda canvas for O'Mahony in the election previous to the last one .......in part of Mulherin homeland!!!she lost out then and O'Mahony and GAA got elected,our Taoiseach is a bit star struck(meeting the queen,Obama,Clinton,cycling around his newly adopted home ,Kerry, etc.) and thought TD O'Mahony would deliver the SAM MAGUIRE as well as the seat,thanks to the GAA the seat was delivered..........and Mayo GAA lost SAM due to the treatment of previous management team of Moran and Morrison and dare I say the mal treatment of the best gaelic footballer in Ireland at the time,Ciarán McDonald.Sometimes it makes my blood boil to see what shenanigans are happening back in the old sod.