Saint pope John Paul II sealed by miracle that will 'amaze the world'

the culture of deference

The Vatican has secretly attributed a mystery miracle to the late John Paul II, clearing the way for him to be declared a saint.

The Holy See has yet to reveal what the miracle was or where and when it took place,



It concerns the "extraordinary healing" of a Costa Rican woman who was cured of a severe brain injury after her family began praying to the memory of the late Polish pope, according to reports in the Italian media.




Amazing. god rewards those in mysterious ways.

Rev Hellfire

the culture of deference wrote: »

Amazing. god rewards those in mysterious ways.

Do those mysterious ways provide any proof ?

Gumbi

No.

HurtLocker

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Do those mysterious ways provide any proof ?

Sure it's been well documented in scientific papers. It's baffled the science and medicine community. They've finally admitted that the Abramic God is the one...... :pac:

Penn

So, rather than praying to God, Jesus, Virgin Mary, the current Pope, whatever existing saints are the patron saints of illnesses or brains or whatever, they prayed only to a dead Pope.

Yup, sounds legit.

Frolick

lies and deceit

the culture of deference

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Do those mysterious ways provide any proof ?

what do you think?

when nutters believe that praying to a dead pope can cure someone

Corkfeen

Ohh I guess I'll start believing so. It appears to be rather easy to attribute a miracle to the pope if it's excessively vague. I'm going to claim that I prayed to the Pope and I miraculously do not have a hangover today as a result. :pac:

Dades

It is utterly confounding that people can actually make this kind of declaration with a straight face.

You'd imagine the people who see validity in this would have difficultly breathing and walking at the same time.

seamus

I love how the beatification process starts with, "We'd love to make <name> a saint, now we just need to find a miracle attributed to him".

Two weeks later, "Wahey, what are the chances?! A miracle by <name>"

bada_bing

and this is the very same pope that protected notorious serial pedophiles within his inner circle such as Fr. Marcial Maciel??

magicbastarder

Dades wrote: »

It is utterly confounding that people can actually make this kind of declaration with a straight face.

i don't see what the fuss is. we're talking about an organisation whose very existence is based on believing in stuff like this. it's just par for the course.

Sarky

bada_bing wrote: »

and this is the very same pope that protected notorious serial pedophiles within his inner circle such as Fr. Marcial Maciel??

Must have been god's will. Those mysterious ways, eh?

Cabaal

sure it was all gods will don't you know,

God caused the severe brain injury and then cured it,.....Ta Dah!

Next up, jesus does his magic tricks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvcpQSetMgI

banie01

It always amazes me that ''devout'' Catholics will pray to all manner of Saints, the Virgin Mary and various other non saints for intercession....
Surely the 1st commandment prohibits asking anyone or anything for divine intercession other than ''God'' itself?
I mean the language of the commandment itself is fairly plain and unequivocal....

The original from Exodus

I am the LORD your God,
who brought you out
of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage.
You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those
who love me and keep my commandments.

Which is fairly clear in stating, pray only to God.
Don't make images or statues for veneration of anything!
Worship God and God alone and your reward will be God's love.
But bear false idol or worship and I will punish your family to the 4th generation.
Fairly clear and simple? Or so I thought!
But maybe that only applies to Jew's now? And catholic's have some special dispensation?

1st in the catholic catechism is simplified even further to:

1. I am the LORD your God:
you shall not have
strange Gods before me.

Yet according to the Catholic church I'm understanding it wrong and since they've adapted it to the new testament and teachings what God actually meant is....

331 Q. Does the First Commandment forbid the honoring of the saints?

A. The First Commandment does not forbid the honoring of the saints, but rather approves of it; because by honoring the saints, who are the chosen friends of God, we honor God Himself.

That the 1st commandment really actually encourages prayers to saints and others because they're Gods special friends
And sure we all know if you want something done its best to exert extra influence via a friend or 2!
And statues of saints, stations of the cross and veneration of relics is all fine because we took those bits out of the book and they really only referred to pagan ****e anyway!
One could be forgiven that there was money to somehow be made in the Saints and Idols industry....
Surely there can't be a benefit to the Church in eleveting JP2 to sainthood?
Nah, they'd never exploit the cult of a modern miracle to prosytelize and gain revenue!
Not the church!
Luckily I'm not that much of a cynic to believe that an organised religion would seek avenues for revenue growth and exploitation in such a manner!
All while maybe making him the patron St of some 3rd world mumbo jumbo to get in with some caché amongst the religious growth markets! :rolleyes:

I'm glad I'm not religious, because if I was still a practicing catholic(Rather than the lapsed one I am) I think I'd be more than a little confused by the fact that an institution of man has ''revised'' the word of ''God''.
Because if, as many believe the bible is actually the word of God, then its ok for the fella with the funny hat to tell me what God actually meant
Because sure tis too complicated for me!

robindch

banie01 wrote: »

Surely the 1st commandment prohibits asking anyone or anything for divine intercession other than ''God'' itself? I mean the language of the commandment itself is fairly plain and unequivocal....

It's not quite as simple as that -- religious mumbo-jumbo never is.

In catholic terms, and going largely from memory, god-jesus-holyspirit are the only entities who are allowed to carry out some action that somebody prayed for. Consequently, you end up with two types of prayer - the first type is you praying to god-jesus-holyspirit for it to do something; second type is you praying to Mary, the angels and the saints, so that they can then put in a request to god-jesus-holyspirit to do something. The second type here is called "intercessory prayer" or "invocatory prayer", as you're invoking another religious entity to intercede with the acting agent, upon your behalf. Confusingly, both types of prayer can also be carried out for your own benefit, or on behalf of somebody else. That latter type is also called "intercessory prayer", as you yourself, by praying, are interceding in another's place.

Anyhow, yes, intercessory prayer, in the sense of requesting Mary, the angels and/or the saints, is permitted in the catholic religion, but not in the protestant one. Hence the rather splendid declaration in article 22 of the 39 anglican "Articles of Religion":

Anglican Church wrote:

The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.

iDave

I know people who prayed to JP2. They still died of cancer

Zombrex

HurtLocker wrote: »

Sure it's been well documented in scientific papers. It's baffled the science and medicine community. They've finally admitted that the Abramic God is the one...... :pac:

lmfo :pac:

Zombrex

banie01 wrote: »

It always amazes me that ''devout'' Catholics will pray to all manner of Saints, the Virgin Mary and various other non saints for intercession....
Surely the 1st commandment prohibits asking anyone or anything for divine intercession other than ''God'' itself?
I mean the language of the commandment itself is fairly plain and unequivocal....

It does, but Catholics attempt to get around this by simply saying that all this honours God, so is not a sin.

Of course the 1st commandment doesn't say don't pray to these things unless you are honouring me. It says don't. Point blank don't do it. It is a bit like someone saying that yes they were speeding down a country road, but they had a good reason. The law doesn't mention anything about "good reasons", and neither does the 1st commandment mention anything about its ok if you are honouring God.

The idea of praying to Saints is also ruled out by the New Testament

1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

The first commandment also rules Jesus out. But good luck trying to explain that to any Christian, let alone a Catholic. :rolleyes:

Just another reason why the idea that religious people hold to stead fast moral codes is nonsense. They just think they do, but it is ridiculously easy to justify anything you want in religion because nothing is going to actually punish you if you do it wrong.

Religions always have a vested interest in restricting who is at the head of the religion, and thus restricting the system of authority. We can't have you listening to another god. We can't have you listening to another messiah. We can't have you listening to another prophet. We can't have you listening to another Pope. He might say something we don't agree with.

Every time someone wants to start a new religion based on the old one they have to get around this some how, because they want their new system to be able to claim authority.

Catholic Saints is just another example of this. The Catholic church need to have a reason why you should devote your attention to their Saints, in order to give you a reason why being part of their religion is good.

Religion is ***king stupid

maguffin

I bet JP II couldn't match this one....;)

"Levitation and Ecstatic Flights:
St Gerard Majella was often enraptured into remarkable levitations, often being drawn away by God for some distances. It was sufficient for St Gerard Majella to think of the love of God, or to contemplate the mystery of Incarnation, to cast his eyes upon a crucifix or a picture of the Blessed Virgin, or to be in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.
One of the many examples would be when St Gerard, intending to spend some days at Oliveto, received hospitality at the house of an archpriest named Don Salvadore. The miracle took place on the very morning of his arrival at Oliveto. Gerard had withdrawn to his room to pray. At the dinner hour, the archpriest went himself to invite him to dinner. But to his astonishment he found the brother ravished in ecstasy and raised about three feet from the ground. Filled with amazement, he withdrew, but returning shortly after, he found him in the same state. The whole household, all witnesses to the extraordinary event, unable to sit down to dinner, awaited the guest with tears of emotion. At last he appeared, his face all inflamed. "Please do not wait for me," he said to the archpriest. "I do not wish to inconvenience you." To preserve the memory of this rapture, the archpriest marked on the wall of the room the height to which he had seen the Saint elevated."

the culture of deference

iDave wrote: »

I know people who prayed to JP2. They still died of cancer

religious people are mad, 10 million could have died after being prayed for, but 1 survives and all evidence of a recovery is replaced by "i prayed to jp2"

The Polish-born pope has been on the fast track for sainthood ever since retired Pope Benedict XVI waived the traditional five-year waiting period and allowed the investigation into his life and virtues to begin just weeks after his 2005 death. John Paul was beatified in 2011.

Zombrex wrote: »

Of course the 1st commandment doesn't say don't pray to these things unless you are honouring me. It says don't. Point blank don't do it.

Religion is ***king stupid

the 1st commandment should be

don't kill people

2nd should be

don't fcuk children

i love their saints

There are over 10,000 named saints and beati from history, the Roman Martyology and Orthodox sources, but no definitive "head count".



Canonization, the process the Church uses to name a saint, has only been used since the tenth century. For hundreds of years, starting with the first martyrs of the early Church, saints were chosen by public acclaim. some saints' stories were distorted by legend and some never existed.



In 1983, Pope John Paul II made sweeping changes in the canonization procedure. The process begins after the death of a Catholic whom people regard as holy. a panel of theologians at the Vatican evaluates the candidate. After approval by the panel and cardinals of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, the pope proclaims the candidate "venerable."


The next step, beatification, requires evidence of one miracle (except in the case of martyrs). Since miracles are considered proof that the person is in heaven and can intercede for us, the miracle must take place after the candidate's death and as a result of a specific petition to the candidate.



Only after one more miracle will the pope canonize the saint



Canonization is infallible and irrevocable



By the year 100 A.D., Christians were honoring other Christians who had died, and asking for their intercession, this practice came from a long-standing tradition in the Jewish faith of honoring prophets and holy people with shrines.


many people ask Saint Monica to pray for them if they have trouble with unanswered prayers,

Patron saints are often chosen today because an interest, talent, or event in their lives overlaps with the special area.


Saint Isidore of Seville (Spanish: San Isidro or San Isidoro de Sevilla, Latin: Isidorus Hispalensis) (c. 560 – 4 April 636) served as Archbishop of Seville for more than three decades and is
THE PATRON SAINT OF COMPUTERS

Dades

For some reason I'm reminded of another sadly departed individual...

The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.

banie01

Zombrex wrote: »

It does, but Catholics attempt to get around this by simply saying that all this honours God, so is not a sin.
Of course the 1st commandment doesn't say don't pray to these things unless you are honouring me. It says don't. Point blank don't do it. It is a bit like someone saying that yes they were speeding down a country road, but they had a good reason. The law doesn't mention anything about "good reasons", and neither does the 1st commandment mention anything a
bout its ok if you are honouring God.

That was kinda the point I thought I was making too...
Sorry if it didn't come across clearly as I meant it to.

Religions can use mumbo jumbo to make any point and find something in the book to reference it!
Or just go the Mormon route and create a whole new book with an even bigger range of Sky zombie crap.
And because God hasn't given ya a sign that you're wrong
Or stricken your progeny with plague...(Like he said he would!)
Sure ya must be right, lets sacrifice a chicken to Ctulhu and find out!

Zombrex wrote: »

The idea of praying to Saints is also ruled out by the New Testament

1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

The first commandment also rules Jesus out. But good luck trying to explain that to any Christian, let alone a Catholic. :rolleyes:

Just another reason why the idea that religious people hold to stead fast moral codes is nonsense. They just think they do, but it is ridiculously easy to justify anything you want in religion because nothing is going to actually punish you if you do it wrong.

Again pretty much the point I thought I was making, the original commandment from Exodus and Deuteronomy specifically excludes worship or prayer to anyone or anything except God.
No Saints, No Intercession by special friend , no relics,nothing!
Catholics and most Christians fudge this one by
a) Holding that God>Jesus>Holy spirit are one and the same in Trinity and a prayer to 1 is a prayer to all....
and
b)Going down the Catholic Cathecism route and actually changing the commandment to fit whatever version of Dogma fits with the leadership of the day.

Zombrex wrote: »

Religions always have a vested interest in restricting who is at the head of the religion, and thus restricting the system of authority. We can't have you listening to another god. We can't have you listening to another messiah. We can't have you listening to another prophet. We can't have you listening to another Pope. He might say something we don't agree with.

Every time someone wants to start a new religion based on the old one they have to get around this some how, because they want their new system to be able to claim authority.

Agreed, controlling the power and direction of the Religion gives control not just of the ''faithful'' but also the cash.
As I said,

One could be forgiven that there was money to somehow be made in the Saints and Idols industry....
Surely there can't be a benefit to the Church in eleveting JP2 to sainthood?
Nah, they'd never exploit the cult of a modern miracle to prosytelize and gain revenue!

Zombrex wrote: »

Catholic Saints is just another example of this. The Catholic church need to have a reason why you should devote your attention to their Saints, in order to give you a reason why being part of their religion is good.

Religion is ***king stupid

100% Agree which is pretty much what I'd said...

All while maybe making him the patron St of some 3rd world mumbo jumbo to get in with some caché amongst the religious growth markets!

Creating modern saints is really a marketing tactic IMO which is why there current efforts at Saints and proselytization are aimed at places where a bit of Catholic shock and awe will pull in the punters.

badspealler

Patron saint of computers?!

You sure he's not the vatican webmaster or something?!

Hotblack Desiato

the culture of deference wrote: »

many people ask Saint Monica to pray for them if they have trouble with unanswered prayers

You think they'd have got the hint the first time.

housetypeb

Reminds me of how at my nephews communion I had to suppress a laugh as the priest spoke of the beautiful invisible miracle that is the Eucharist, Both beautiful AND invisible!
Learn it well, Invisible miracles can be anything you want them to be.

car.kar

I wonder why JP chose to cure only one person of Parkinsons, rather than curing the disease itself... well, God works in mysterious ways sure.

sbsquarepants

It's always some condition that just happens to display spontaeneous remission anyway, coincidently like.
The nazi fúcker could have made heather mills leg grow back live on telly - now there's a miracle that would amaze the world. No sense of spectacle these saints!:D

Nodin

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It's always some condition that just happens to display spontaeneous remission anyway, coincidently like.
The nazi fúcker could have made heather mills leg grow back live on telly - now there's a miracle that would amaze the world. No sense of spectacle these saints!:D

...it being H Mills some would wonder whether it was the work of God or the Devil....

swimming in a sea

the culture of deference wrote: »

There are over 10,000 named saints and beati from history, the Roman Martyology and Orthodox sources, but no definitive "head count".

A lot of them were not very nice:eek:

Even saints like Sir Thomas Moore who I was thought in school was a great man because he never betrayed his conscience(true) but they left out about his fondness for burning heretics at the stake.

Nodin

swimming in a sea wrote: »

A lot of them were not very nice:eek:

Even saints like Sir Thomas Moore who I was thought in school was a great man because he never betrayed his conscience(true) but they left out about his fondness for burning heretics at the stake.

...sure who doesn't like a toasted heretic of an evening?

Sarky

Used to be just becoming pope meant you were automatically a saint. The whole things a terrible mess.

Penn

Nodin wrote: »

...sure who doesn't like a toasted heretic of an evening?

Well I had one yesterday and I just know I wouldn't be able to handle another this evening

Nodin

Penn wrote: »

Well I had one yesterday and I just know I wouldn't be able to handle another this evening

Light-weight. No sainthood for you.

Rev Hellfire

And they say its not a personality cult.

legspin

Nodin wrote: »

...sure who doesn't like a toasted heretic of an evening?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=popslMUM_mE

Brian Shanahan

swimming in a sea wrote: »

A lot of them were not very nice:eek:

Even saints like Sir Thomas Moore who I was thought in school was a great man because he never betrayed his conscience(true) but they left out about his fondness for burning heretics at the stake.

Or ripping the bed sheets off his sleeping daughters to show their naked bodies to men he was trying to marry them off to.

I read it in the introduction to my (sadly lost) Penguin edition of Utopia.

Busted Flat.

iDave wrote: »

I know people who prayed to JP2. They still died of cancer

That was outside the policy, should have read the documents.
ie. small print.

Kidchameleon

iDave wrote: »

I know people who prayed to JP2. They still died of cancer

He answered their prayers. He said NO.

ShooterSF

Yay it's a miracle people. You see this woman? She prayed to John Paul II to stop her from being fast tracked to heaven and instead continue her trials here on Earth. She has been given possibly years of new opportunities to fail her extended trial and end up in hell for eternity. Blessed is she.

LashingLady

It's an absolute joke. I couldn't believe when I read about the beatification - the French nun whose cancer was cured by JP2. I assumed she had visited him before he died and he put his hand on her head or something, but then I read - she prayed to him just after he died and her cancer was cured - are you f***ing kidding me??

C'mon who honestly believes this stuff??

I was having coffee with workmates one day - all at least 30, and the conversation turned to something that had been lost - these adults all started discussing the miracle of praying to St Anthony to find lost things - "always works!", hmmmm ever try not praying and just looking?

There's no arguing, let them off, whatever, just try really hard to keep your kids out of their schools. My son did Junior Infants in a catholic school and thankfully is moving to an ET this year. Learning to "genuflect" was on the plan for 4 and 5 year olds. I cried with joy when we got the ET place. I'm sure it won't be perfect but at least we'll be able to introduce some objectivity to the whole learning about belief systems....

kylith

LashingLady wrote: »

It's an absolute joke. I couldn't believe when I read about the beatification - the French nun whose cancer was cured by JP2. I assumed she had visited him before he died and he put his hand on her head or something, but then I read - she prayed to him just after he died and her cancer was cured - are you f***ing kidding me??

If you like that you'll get some kick out of the Miracle of the Herring! Not PJP, but lol-worthy all the same.

I was having coffee with workmates one day - all at least 30, and the conversation turned to something that had been lost - these adults all started discussing the miracle of praying to St Anthony to find lost things - "always works!", hmmmm ever try not praying and just looking?

I'll admit to making use of Anto, but it's obviously just a method of focussing the brain.

seamus

LashingLady wrote: »

I was having coffee with workmates one day - all at least 30, and the conversation turned to something that had been lost - these adults all started discussing the miracle of praying to St Anthony to find lost things - "always works!", hmmmm ever try not praying and just looking?

It's one of the more straightforward examples of confirmation bias, a useful way to introduce the concept if you ever find yourself in that discussion with a religious person.
Of course with St Anthony it seems to "always work" because if you lose something, the chances are it's dropped within a few metres of you and you will find again.

I bet when someone loses something overboard at sea, they never pray to St Anthony, because they know there's no way it's coming back. They probably consider it good luck or something...

kylith

seamus wrote: »

It's one of the more straightforward examples of confirmation bias, a useful way to introduce the concept if you ever find yourself in that discussion with a religious person.
Of course with St Anthony it seems to "always work" because if you lose something, the chances are it's dropped within a few metres of you and you will find again.

I bet when someone loses something overboard at sea, they never pray to St Anthony, because they know there's no way it's coming back. They probably consider it good luck or something...

IIRC if you lose something it's because it 'wasn't for you' because 'God works in mysterious ways'. There may also be a smidgen of 'He took it to give you something better', but that may have just been my parents trying to calm me down after I lost my necklace and Anto came up empty-handed.

eyescreamcone

I pray to St Boniface (the patron saint of parking spaces)
When I'm in town in need of a parking space I pray

"Boniface, Boniface - help me find a parking space"

Usually works (eventually - after driving around the block a number of times)

I must say this prayer works better earlier in the morning - (Boniface knocks off early now - he's not getting any younger you know)

Does that count as a miracle? - even if its 3pm on Xmas Eve???

mr lee

let them have their makey upy saint,the rest of their ****e is made up so why not this.

LashingLady

mr lee wrote: »

let them have their makey upy saint,the rest of their ****e is made up so why not this.

Of course you're right, and I don't know why I get so exercised about this as it's neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things...

Although maybe it is because there are so many of "them". They don't go on about it all too much to be honest. The times I feel my blood boiling is when I am sitting in the pews at friends weddings and the priest starts congratulating them for choosing "the Christian marriage" - as if my husband and I are any less of a loving married couple because we did not choose "the Christian marriage", or that we love our children any less because we are not "bringing them to God through baptism". They always have to get the dig in that there can be "no love without god" - simple statement but heinous insult to those who do not believe....

mr lee

the one that really annoys me is 'if its gods will',
to me that implies god has control of what happens on earth,
so lets forget about all the starving people in the world as long as we can raise enough money to tarmac the church car park,
'if its gods will'

Cabaal

mr lee wrote: »

the one that really annoys me is 'if its gods will',
to me that implies god has control of what happens on earth,
so lets forget about all the starving people in the world as long as we can raise enough money to tarmac the church car park,
'if its gods will'

You're forgetting the most important part about gods will,

Don't question it

bumper234

In the immortal words of Homer Simpson

I'm normally not a praying man, but if you're up there, please save me Superman.

I'm having the best day of my life, and I owe it all to not going to Church!

But Marge, what if we chose the wrong religion? Each week we just make God madder and madder.


Dear Lord.. The gods have been good to me. For the first time in my life, everything is absolutely perfect just the way it is. So here's the deal: You freeze everything the way it is, and I won't ask for anything more. If that is OK, please give me absolutely no sign. OK, deal.


And my absolute favorite

I'm not a bad guy! I work hard, and I love my kids. So why should I spend half my Sunday hearing about how I'm going to Hell?

Gumbi

I love this one. Marge is trying to get Homer up for church.

Marge: Come one Homer, the Lord only asks for an hour a week.

Homer (grumbles): Then he shoulda made the week an hour longer!