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Rent, Moving Out and Landlords Demands

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    #32
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,379 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    SashaBond wrote: »
    Had an awful experience with 2 of the landlords when I lived in Dublin and neither of them returned deposit. Oh, wait, one did - 200 out of 1200.

    Must have easy wins when you took your PRTB cases then?


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    #33
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    SashaBond wrote: »
    The new one? Nope :) Unfurnished. I live in Denmark now and it's a standard practice here: 3 months deposit, get your own furniture & everything else, most places don't even have washing machines in and you have to re-paint the walls after you move out too ;)

    Who holds the deposit.


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    #34
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    djimi wrote: »
    Not before we get a proper deposit holding scheme its not. The idea of risking one months deposit is bad enough; no way I would hand over any more than that to any landlord/agent unless I knew that it was being held by an impartial third party.

    The LL is risking a lot more than one months deposit. No protection for them either.


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    #35
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    beauf wrote: »
    The LL is risking a lot more than one months deposit. No protection for them either.

    Be that as it may, the fact remains that from a renters point of view there are simply too many cowboy/amateur landlords in Ireland at the moment to make it worth the risk of handing over several grand of a deposit. A deposit handling scheme would protect both parties, but in terms of unjust deductions (which happen a lot) it would offer vital protection to the tenant.

    Other laws also need reviewing/changing to protect landlords and their interests, not least the fact that a tenant could, if they so choose, dig their heals in and not pay rent for the better part of a year in the knowledge that the landlord can do absolutely nothing about it. Thats a seperate matter though.


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    #36
    SashaBond
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭SashaBond


    beauf wrote: »
    Who holds the deposit.

    The landlord.


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    #37
    SashaBond
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭SashaBond


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Must have easy wins when you took your PRTB cases then?

    Nope - no cases ;( First time didn't have anyone to help me out with advice and didn't have a clue where to go.

    The second time we had an extensive e-mail exchange with the landlord and even were talking to a "friend of a friend who has a degree in law" but landlord just continuously came back with more issues, that we have seemingly caused and we were told by this "friend" that we can't really prove anything...

    A limpy excuse maybe: but I'm a girl, not Irish, and was kind of left on my own to deal with this - so had no clue. If only I thought of Boards.ie at that moment ;)


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    #38
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    How long ago was this? Its probably not too late to take cases now. I would certainly follow up if it meant a chance of getting a grand of my money back.


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    #39
    SashaBond
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭SashaBond


    djimi wrote: »
    How long ago was this? Its probably not too late to take cases now. I would certainly follow up if it meant a chance of getting a grand of my money back.

    4 or 5 years ago at this stage. Wouldn't bother anymore with it, as we had a long argument about it when it was on, but I think it's good to know for the rest of the people that these things happen - especially if the landlord sense that you don't know better. I must have been an easy target at 21 ;)


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    #40
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    djimi wrote: »
    Not before we get a proper deposit holding scheme its not. The idea of risking one months deposit is bad enough; no way I would hand over any more than that to any landlord/agent unless I knew that it was being held by an impartial third party.
    This is in the Programme for Government and I think the legislation has been drafted. Will probably go before the Dail late this year. When this is in place I imagine 3 month deposits will become more common.


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    #41
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    djimi wrote: »
    Be that as it may, the fact remains that from a renters point of view there are simply too many cowboy/amateur landlords in Ireland at the moment to make it worth the risk of handing over several grand of a deposit. A deposit handling scheme would protect both parties, but in terms of unjust deductions (which happen a lot) it would offer vital protection to the tenant....

    Likewise considering the risk of losing hundred if not thousands in damages which the deposit can't cover, it would be vital for a LL.


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    #42
    quietsailor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    StillWaters wrote: »
    This is in the Programme for Government and I think the legislation has been drafted. Will probably go before the Dail late this year. When this is in place I imagine 3 month deposits will become more common.

    StillWaters - you don't have a link to this do you, I've tried some google combinations but I'm getting mainly blogs.

    As regards the 3 month deposits, if the price fo 3 month deposits is using a 3rd party service most Lls will jump with joy;
    1. The argument about who has the deposits disappears, LLs will never again have to deal with it because we simply don't posess it.
    2. If there is an arguement about costs returning the deposit it goes to an independent assesor. I've seen the state people, including to my disgust a lot of my friends, have left rented accomodation - dirty walls, unhoovered floors, full rubbish bins, excess rubbish etc and no assesor will accept that as being clean to day-to-day living standards.
    3. Tenants stand to lose a lot more money now so hopefully they will take care of the properties they rent. In turn when LLs see that they are getting propertirs back in a well kept condition they will furnish and decorate them better.


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    #43
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,379 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    quietsailor wrote: »
    As regards the 3 month deposits, if the price fo 3 month deposits is using a 3rd party service most Lls will jump with joy;

    I am assuming this service is not going to be free? Is there any details about who needs to pay for it?


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    #44
    miss no stars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    I am assuming this service is not going to be free? Is there any details about who needs to pay for it?

    Into a deposit account and the deposits themselves fund it. Maybe also a €5-€10 charge on both landlord and tenant. I think that would more than cover their costs and would probably earn them some profit, too.


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    #45
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,379 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Have you got a link for this? It is the first I have heard of it.

    I can see this going disastrously wrong tbh where the bond company invests the money in a 'secure' location and then suddenly all the money disappears.


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    #46
    miss no stars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Have you got a link for this? It is the first I have heard of it.

    I can see this going disastrously wrong tbh where the bond company invests the money in a 'secure' location and then suddenly all the money disappears.


    Don't be a DB, it was opinion on how it could be funded. Seriously, I think the "I think that would more than cover their costs and would probably earn them some profit, too. " made it clear (ya know, the whole, "I think" bit) that it's a guess/opinion at how it would/could be funded in an equitable way.


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    #47
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,379 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Sorry I thought you were restating something you had heard elsewhere. What is a DB?


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    #48
    miss no stars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Sorry I thought you were restating something you had heard elsewhere. What is a DB?

    D-bag :o Sorry, bit of an overreaction as your post came across very high and mighty and a bit put-downy


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    #49
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    quietsailor wrote: »
    StillWaters - you don't have a link to this do you, I've tried some google combinations but I'm getting mainly blogs.

    Its at Committee stage at the moment. http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2012/6912/document1.htm


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    #50
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    beauf wrote: »
    Who holds the deposit.
    SashaBond wrote: »
    The landlord.

    The problem in Ireland is that a couple of landlords have a tendency to spend the deposit when they get it.
    miss no stars wrote: »
    Into a deposit account and the deposits themselves fund it. Maybe also a €5-€10 charge on both landlord and tenant. I think that would more than cover their costs and would probably earn them some profit, too.
    Having seen the way that the value of peoples pensions have gone, I'd prefer the money to be held in an account that earns no-one money.
    quietsailor wrote: »
    StillWaters - you don't have a link to this do you, I've tried some google combinations but I'm getting mainly blogs.
    I can only find links to ipoa.ie which is some landlords association.
    quietsailor wrote: »
    As regards the 3 month deposits, if the price fo 3 month deposits is using a 3rd party service most Lls will jump with joy
    Who does one give the notice that they're leaving the house; the landlord or the 3rd party, I wonder?
    quietsailor wrote: »
    The argument about who has the deposits disappears, LLs will never again have to deal with it because we simply don't posess it.
    I agree on this one; they won't be able to spend it.
    quietsailor wrote: »
    If there is an arguement about costs returning the deposit it goes to an independent assesor. I've seen the state people, including to my disgust a lot of my friends, have left rented accomodation - dirty walls, unhoovered floors, full rubbish bins, excess rubbish etc and no assesor will accept that as being clean to day-to-day living standards.
    I hope said assessor also has to take photos of what the place is like when the tenant moves in, as a lot places that are left like sh|te, were like that when the tenant moved in (from experience).
    quietsailor wrote: »
    Tenants stand to lose a lot more money now so hopefully they will take care of the properties they rent. In turn when LLs see that they are getting propertirs back in a well kept condition they will furnish and decorate them better.
    Actually, no, they don't. They stand to lose a lot less, as the landlord will have to explain why they've spent the money to the 3rd party before they are able to claim it. Or I hope they'll have to, otherwise the 3rd party will be seen as a sham landlords association.


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    #51
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,379 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Realistically this will need to be administered by the PRTB or some related party. I cannot see a situation in Ireland where this would be a free service so I can see a situation where PRTB registration will rise to €120/€130 to cover their inefficiencies.
    Whatever organisation runs this will find themselves with a permanent cash pool of about €500,000,000*. I think it would be naive to think that they will happily sit on this cash and not invest it/speculate with it. Or indeed the government sees this big pool of cash and diverts it elsewhere under government guarantee (see pension reserve fund).
    We will be left with a situation that the government is guaranteeing the deposit. I for one do not think they are competent enough to do that. This is why I think that it would end in disaster.

    *Average rent in Ireland €808 x 600,000 which is my wild guess at the amount of rental properties in Ireland. Adjust as appropriate.


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    #52
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    It will be administered by the PRTB, or whatever their new name will be.


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    #53
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    €500,000,000
    You forgot to multiply that by 3 (months) to get just over €1,500,000,000

    I'd be happy if the PTRB took €100 off each of the deposit to cover costs, if it meant employing people so that the PTRB functioned smoothly and quickly.

    But yes, if it was controlled by the government, it'd only be a matter of time before it would go tits up.


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    #54
    quietsailor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    the_syco wrote: »
    The problem in Ireland is that a couple of landlords have a tendency to spend the deposit when they get it.


    Having seen the way that the value of peoples pensions have gone, I'd prefer the money to be held in an account that earns no-one money.
    7 day notice account would be best, long enough that its not instant access, short enough its readily available


    Who does one give the notice that they're leaving the house; the landlord or the 3rd party, I wonder?
    Both I would hope, and if one is refusing to co-operate there should be a quick, <7 day, mechanism to complete the process


    I hope said assessor also has to take photos of what the place is like when the tenant moves in, as a lot places that are left like sh|te, were like that when the tenant moved in (from experience).
    Guess what, the LL doesn't start moving in bags of rubbish as soon as the last tenant leaves - that sh!te is from tenant, get tenants to stop wrecking properties and the LLs will start making the properties nicer for tenants, keep wrecking them and the LLs won't improve them. Why improve something you know is going to be mistreated at best, wrecked at worst.

    Actually, no, they don't. They stand to lose a lot less, as the landlord will have to explain why they've spent the money to the 3rd party before they are able to claim it. Or I hope they'll have to, otherwise the 3rd party will be seen as a sham landlords association.
    I take photos before and after a tenancy, have inventories before and after and now I'm getting lazy so will be getting in cleaners before tenancies. Believe me I have receipts, if you try to stiff me I will go for the 3 months and look for more, as I have proof I think i would get it too.
    In the case of an normal LL who might not go to that trouble if they have photos of rubbish overflowing bins, manky sinks, greasy ovens, basically all the nasty things normal human beings won't live with how is the tenant going to say their deposit is kept unfairly, the pre-photos are just extra insurance in that case.


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    #55
    miss no stars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    the_syco wrote: »
    You forgot to multiply that by 3 (months) to get just over €1,500,000,000

    I'd be happy if the PTRB took €100 off each of the deposit to cover costs, if it meant employing people so that the PTRB functioned smoothly and quickly.

    But yes, if it was controlled by the government, it'd only be a matter of time before it would go tits up.

    I wouldn't be happy if the government was taking €100 off my deposit. That's a lot of money for some of us. Why on earth take €100? Holding the deposit just wouldn't require that amount of money. That's a completely unacceptable amount. I'd rather take my chances with a landlord holding it, keep the place nice and have no reason to lose €100 than be guaranteed that at best all I will lose is €100.
    quietsailor wrote: »
    I take photos before and after a tenancy, have inventories before and after and now I'm getting lazy so will be getting in cleaners before tenancies. Believe me I have receipts, if you try to stiff me I will go for the 3 months and look for more, as I have proof I think i would get it too.
    In the case of an normal LL who might not go to that trouble if they have photos of rubbish overflowing bins, manky sinks, greasy ovens, basically all the nasty things normal human beings won't live with how is the tenant going to say their deposit is kept unfairly, the pre-photos are just extra insurance in that case.

    What about peeling wallpaper? Mould? Filthy carpets? Stains? All of that can already be present before the tenant moves in, no reason to presume that all properties are immaculate and any damage done must have been done by the tenant. Hence, take pictures before and after. If the place was a kip before and it's not in worse condition (or any more deterioration is down to LL failing to fix problems as they occur, such as peeling wallpaper, damp etc.) then the tenant should get the deposit back. Left as it was found, and all that.


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    #56
    quietsailor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    miss no stars wrote: »
    I wouldn't be happy if the government was taking €100 off my deposit. That's a lot of money for some of us. Why on earth take €100? Holding the deposit just wouldn't require that amount of money. That's a completely unacceptable amount. I'd rather take my chances with a landlord holding it, keep the place nice and have no reason to lose €100 than be guaranteed that at best all I will lose is €100.



    What about peeling wallpaper? Mould? Filthy carpets? Stains? All of that can already be present before the tenant moves in, no reason to presume that all properties are immaculate and any damage done must have been done by the tenant. Hence, take pictures before and after. If the place was a kip before and it's not in worse condition (or any more deterioration is down to LL failing to fix problems as they occur, such as peeling wallpaper, damp etc.) then the tenant should get the deposit back. Left as it was found, and all that.

    I wish, unfortunately tenants seem to intepret this as;
    Rubbish
    coming in: get a completely empty house and empty bins.
    going out: leaves personal belongings, used tampons, bags of rotting food waste.

    Cleanliness
    coming in: all cupboards scrubbed, hob clean, oven clean & grease free, oven racks free of crusted food, showers scrubbed including the grout lines, floors hoovered & mopped.
    Leaving: basically the opposite of the above. A pet hate of mine is to leave food in the fridge and then switch it off - why! it only rots.

    Damage
    coming in: everything is operated, opened/closed, turned on&off basically checked.
    Leaving: broken furniture with the usual BS excuse "it was like that when we came in" er, no it wasn't & I have the photos to prove it.

    After 14 yrs renting out rooms thats not every tenant every year but the rubbish and non-cleaning of the kitchen & bathroom crop up say 12 of the 14 years.

    On the flip side, having to put up with this I'll fix or replace anything that breaks when I rent a place from someone. One LL was so shocked by me offering to finish off a few jobs in the flat (I needed the flat immediately, could't wait) he gave me 2 weeks free rent as he rarely had a tenant offer to help before - he's been renting multiple houses for 20+ yrs so he's had a good sample of tenants to choose from.

    Look people in general just don't care about the rented property they are in and in turn LLs won't give a **** about the tenant. Why put in a €700 gas hob that cooks properly when a €300 will do and the tenant will break them in the same time period. I've experimented with this several times over the 14 yrs with cookers, washing machines, kettles, microwaves and hoovers. In all cases they were broken within 5 years. My family at home have the same cooker for 23 yrs and it's gleaming still. I'll take a photo of it if you want?

    What about peeling wallpaper? Mould? Filthy carpets? Stains? All of that can already be present before the tenant moves in
    Indeed it can, and I say report it to the PRTB, I'll even post links on here to the various parts of the PRTB site to help you. However I've no sympathy for a tenant that views a badly maintained house and then moves into it only to start complaing a month later, you saw it and accepted it. And please don't try the excuse of "they wouldn't know where/what to look at" - if you buy a car, computer, any type of goods you have no knowledge about you seek the advice of a person who does, renting is the same. My brother & myself both rent out properties and are often asked to come along with friends or children of friends (around UCC ie students) to inspect properties, surely most tenants have a friend/relative knowledgeable about houses.

    If the place was a kip before and it's not in worse condition (or any more deterioration is down to LL failing to fix problems as they occur, such as peeling wallpaper, damp etc.) then the tenant should get the deposit back.
    I couldn't agree more, then again i won't rent somewhere like that and if I get caught as I have done & we all get caught at some stage, then I move out. I got my deposit back - why - because I told that LL we were going to the PRTB regardless, I gave them plenty of oppertunities to fix a leaking gutter that caused damp/mould and they didn't fix it. I had emails, letters and texts plus photos. As soon as I lay that on the kitchen table the LL literally pulled out their wallet and wrote the cheque. Again why was it so easy - I used some simple common sense and had everything I said backed up with proof. This is basic sense, why do so many people out there have problems with it.


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