The Last of Us [SPOILERS]

SouthTippBass

You know what would have been nice? If the game gave us the choice weather to hand over Ellie to Marleane when the elevator opens in the carpark of the hospital. Or even just to leave her on the bed in the operating room instead.

I'm still happy with the ending we got, It'l probably stay with me for a long time.

Choice would have been nice though.

Kirby

NotorietyH wrote: »

For me all those recordings were about reinforcing the importance of Ellie just before Joel makes his decision. I think that was Naughty Dog just laying out the stakes. That's why Marlene's recording is there where she talks about the weight of the decision and how much she cares for Ellie, but still makes the choice to go through with it. It's a direct mirror of Joel's relationship with Ellie but with Marlene making the opposite conclusion to Joel.

But is their relationship similar? Marlene promised her mother she would take care of her and yet she abandoned her. Joel never abandoned her like Marlene did. Joel had his Marlene moment in the cabin after Ellie stole the horse....he wanted to dump her the same way and hand responsibility over to his brother.......but he stuck with her.

Marlene's insistence on killing Ellie for the greater good could be seen as guilt for not "doing the right thing" the first time round when she put herself first. I don't know what it is but I just find it hard to sympathise with her character at all. She turns up her nose at Joel and Tess at the start of their game and acts all noble when she really isn't. Bugged me.

SouthTippBass wrote: »

You know what would have been nice? If the game gave us the choice weather to hand over Ellie to Marleane when the elevator opens in the carpark of the hospital. Or even just to leave her on the bed in the operating room instead.

I'm still happy with the ending we got, It'l probably stay with me for a long time.

Choice would have been nice though.

They actually considered that quite heavily after playtesting before release. A lot of testers said the same thing as you did. But when Naughty Dog asked them "If given the choice, what would you have done?" nearly everybody said "Save Ellie anyway".....so they left it as it was.

Grumpypants

NotorietyH wrote: »

Yeah I'm not a hundred percent certain about that recording now, but I'm almost sure, because if there were other people who were immune and they knew about it would kind of undercut the impact of the ending. Joel keeps humanities last hope for survival to himself, or Joel keeps one of humanities last hopes of survival to himself. I think you'd lose a lot of the emotional weight of the lie Joel tells if Ellie isn't the only possibility of a cure.

I took it as they were "unsuccessful" tests and killed the other people (they had been infecting chimps to try cure them without success. I had the impression they had also done tests on people but the people died during the operations).

So Joel was telling a half "truth" when he said there were others but just left out the bit that they were now all dead.


So it is pretty much the same thing you think, that she was the last chance for a cure but Joel had no guarantee it would work and had no interest in losing her to save the human race.

When you look at Joel in the part where the giraffes are walking along and Joel is left starring at them and thinking. This comes after a brutal encounter with humans. I got the impression Joel pretty much made up his mind there and then that the Human race were not worth saving. When at the end of the game it was going to cost Ellie her life to save a race of horrible humans he had no interest.

richymcdermott

i know for certain i would watch my friend day while traveling that long just to sacrifice someone i grew to attach too just to be left alone.

NotorietyH

Kirby wrote: »

But is their relationship similar? Marlene promised her mother she would take care of her and yet she abandoned her. Joel never abandoned her like Marlene did. Joel had his Marlene moment in the cabin after Ellie stole the horse....he wanted to dump her the same way and hand responsibility over to his brother.......but he stuck with her.

Marlene's insistence on killing Ellie for the greater good could be seen as guilt for not "doing the right thing" the first time round when she put herself first. I don't know what it is but I just find it hard to sympathise with her character at all. She turns up her nose at Joel and Tess at the start of their game and acts all noble when she really isn't. Bugged me.

Yeah, that's what I meant by mirror. It's a common enough thing in movies, that you'll have a secondary character who shares a lot of traits in common with a character but will differ in key areas that reveal and strengthen aspects of the main character. Exactly as you said, she promised to take care of Ellie but abandoned her, unlike Joel, which reveals he is more noble than Marlene thinks she is, or how she's portrayed to the outside world. Shadow would be a better term than mirror I supposed. Maybe a fun house mirror. It's cleverly done though as it really reveals those aspects of reluctant nobility or even honour in Joel and simultaneously reveals the hypocrisy of Marlene and as a result the Fireflies.

I didn't sympathise with Marlene at all. I wanted Joel to save Ellie, for the same selfish reasons he did. That was just heightened by the fact that I'd no faith that the fireflies would put the vaccine, sorry meant to say vaccine above, to good use or use it as a tool, a means to end. Hold the world to ransom basically.

I had the same thought as well about would the vaccine really do anything. After twenty years of basically no society to speak of, how would people even begin to try to recreate what they had.

What I took from the edge interview too was how the symptoms of the virus itself is really a metaphor for the way nature is reclaiming the land. It's a real virus that effects ants. The virus infects the host, grows inside them before exploding out of the ant spreading spores and infecting more. Just like the way nature, with the trees and plants bursting through the concrete and the roads of the cities, is reclaiming and taking over what people had built.

Edit: Oh and I meant last hope as in from the point of view of the characters at that moment in time. There very well might be someone else in the future but as far as they know right there and then thinks the only person with an immunity that there is.

Grumpypants

The documentary called After Us (or something similar) is an influence. It shows nature reclaiming cities just like in the game. Pretty cool

The fungal thing is called Cordyceps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordyceps

danthefan

Doubt I have anything to add that anyone hasn't said already but my view is that Joel spends most of the game as a survivor, but shows at the end he is a deeply flawed human being. He clearly hasn't gotten over the death of his daughter and will go to any length to protect Ellie including outright murder and foregoing any possible vaccine. Funnily enough I think the murders are a lot worse, there's a clear moral quandary over killing Ellie, no matter what can be achieved from her death. He kills the doctor and Marlene in cold blood. Lying to Ellie at the end so bluntly also suggests to me that he's comfortable with what he's done. Someone in the other thread described him as "evil" which I don't actually agree with, he's been shaped by events and probably been broken by them.

Kirby

danthefan wrote: »

He kills the doctor and Marlene in cold blood.

They were both armed. Call me heartless, but I would have done the same thing.

Mr.Prodston

I finished this last night and I loved it. Everything about it. The score. The fact I was tense and nervous throughout. The story. The little interactions and comments.

I was not expecting that ending at all. When we got out of the car right at the end as Ellie and you see her arm I thought the end was going to be her turning and then turning Joel too. Then when we got to the ridge whatever camera angle I had I thought for a second it was prompting Ellie to jump so that Joel wouldn't have to kill her. Then when Joel was lifting her up I thought he'd see her arm. All these different things and thought processes occurred in under 2 minutes. None of which lead me to that ending.

Joel was deeply flawed from the very beginning, yet the world is now deeply flawed. It took me a little time to figure that out and just when I'd made some peace with the brutal murder of so many people (who were for the most part going to kill Joel anyway) we get the torture scene just after David calling Joel a psycho (not the right term but I can't remember). Those men were terrified of him, in fact they were running away from him to an extent just before that, yet I/Joel gunned them all down.

He's certainly an anti-hero, at best. I have to credit ND for making my realise what Joel had become through David, a cannibal that was going to rape and murder Ellie before eating her :eek: I was sh!tng my pants running away from him before the last stab. (When he let Ellie go I knew she was going to be tracked, for all her savvyness she's still just a 14 year old who needed Joel. He wouldn't have made that mistake).

Ellie had to know Joel was lying, although I think she may have had more recollection in the hospital than was let on. Although any sympathy I had for the fireflies was gone out the window when they wouldn't even let Joel say goodbye.

I have no idea how I actually feel but my gut tells me that Ellie was in the process of finally turning. She's dead any which way. Dead if she was used for the cure. Dead if she turns, which looks likely now. Dead because this world will get you, they can't be that "lucky" forever. As for Joel while he's not quite dead on the inside he is a very broken man and the slightest thing will send him over the edge now.

Wow that's a pretty bleak assessment but the whole game was bleak. I'll probably feel different in a few days. But that was the saddest "happy ending" I've probably ever seen and I'm delighted that I feel that way. Absolute GOTY for me, GTA would have to do something ridiculously special to even consider it. I think it edges Uncharted 2 as well and as a massive fan that's not something I say lightly.

It's funny as I was talking to my friend about it, he's still only 30 odd % through at best and while he appreciates everything about the game he's not sure if he'll keep going with it because the story is just so brutal and everything is so tense, stating that he much prefers UC's more entertaining swash-buckle. I understand that view yet still wanted to call him a pussy :pac: . For me the story is the most important part of any creative entity I participate in. If the plot doesn't hook me it could be the best technical creation but it won't draw me in like this did. Spending 20 hours scared to go around every corner yet at the same time I couldn't wait to find out. Ahh I'll stop gushing for a while now :pac:

C14N

Just for reference, here is what the surgeon's recorder said:

April 28th. Marlene was right, the girl's infection is like nothing I've ever seen. The cause of her immunity is uncertain. As we've seen in all past cases, the antigenic titers of the patient's Cordyceps remain high in both the serum and the cerebrospinal fluid. Blood cultures taken from the patient rapidly grow Crodyceps in fungal-media in the lab...however white blood cell lines, including percentages and absolute-counts, are completely normal. There is no elevation of pro-inflammatory cytokines, and an MRI of the brain shows no evidence of fungal growth in the limbic regions, which would normally accompany the prodrome of aggression in infected patients. We must find a way to replicate this state under laboratory conditions. We're about to hit a milestone in human history equal to the discovery of penicillin. After years of wandering in circles, we're about to come home, make a difference and bring the human race back into control of it's own destiny. All of our sacrifices and the hundreds of men and women who've bled for this cause, or worse, will not be in vain.

Marlene's:

It's 5:30pm on...April 28th. I just finished speaking...more like yelling at our head surgeon. Apparently there's no way to extricate the parasite without eliminating the host. Fancy way of saying we gotta kill the f**king kid. And now they're asking for me go ahead. The tests just keep getting harder and harder, don't they? I'm so tired. I'm exhausted and I just want this to end...So be it.

Marlene 2:

Hey Anna...It's been a while since we spoke. I uh...I just gave the go ahead to proceed with the surgery. I really doubt I had much of a choice, asking me was more of a formality. I need you to know that I've kept my promise all these years...despite everything that I was in charge of, I looked after her. I would have done anything for her and at times...Here's a chance to save us...all of us. This is what we were after...what you were after. They asked me to kill the smuggler. I'm not about to kill the one man in this facility that might understand the weight of this choice. Maybe he can forgive me. Oh, I miss you Anna. Your daughter will be with you soon.

I've searched 5 different final level walkthroughs now and couldn't find another surgeon's recorder and I don't think I found it in my playthrough although I can check it when I get home. I also looked up artifact guides and they only ever mention these three recorders so I'm assuming that's all of them for now (although if someone else found one that the walkthrough makers on Youtube couldn't then please post a transcript).

C14N

Grumpypants wrote: »

My take on the ending is that the Fireflies had tried this experiment with others and they had died or at least it didn't work so Joel wasn't totally lying, it was on one of the recorders found in an office in the hospital.

Unless this was on another recorder, this just isn't true. The recorder says they never saw anyone else like Ellie and there isn't even any straight indication that they've had anyone else who seemed even partially immune. He mentions "past cases" but I took this to mean a standard infection that they've observed (one that created a runner, stalker or clicker).

Kirby wrote: »

To be honest, the more I think about it the more I think there really isn't a vital necessity for Ellie's Vaccine. Was she really the last hope? I'm not so sure. According to the doctors, Ellie's mutation would maybe enable them to find a vaccine....not a cure. They can't cure the currently infected, just stop more from becoming infected.

The doctor didn't even sound like there was a question of whether the vaccine would be made, it sounded like "this is it, no doubts whatsoever". I guess you can argue that it's an unreliable narrator but to me, it sounds like the game is simply saying "Ellie's death would have resulted in the vaccine". Also, not curing the currently infected doesn't really matter. They were hardly going to go lining up clickers to give them injections but they could have saved millions of people who live in fear every day of suddenly dying or suddenly killing everyone around them.

Kirby wrote: »

We know from one of the college student's journal entries that over 60% of the world had become infected.....and that estimate is way out of date. Would a vaccine really have made a difference? Surely it would be too late to help.

We don't know how out of date that was. The note could have been left fairly recently when the Fireflies were there. Either way, even if had been knocked down to just 10% of the population, that's 700 million people world wide and we at least know that there are some major cities that are still quarantine zones. I would say it's at all morally justified to just give up on that number of people.

Kirby wrote: »

And remember, there is no guarantee that the Firefly's would have distributed it evenly or even at all. They were quite the military outfit. And even if they did want to, how could they? It's not as if they could pop it into FedEx. Society has broken down.

NotorietyH wrote: »

That was just heightened by the fact that I'd no faith that the fireflies would put the vaccine, sorry meant to say vaccine above, to good use or use it as a tool, a means to end. Hold the world to ransom basically.

Being a military outfit makes it easier for them to distribute it since they can maintain order (people would no doubt be clamouring for a vaccine when they found it existed). It's true that we have no guarantee they will distribute it but from what the doctor said, it sure sounds like they planned to.

we're about to come home, make a difference and bring the human race back into control of it's own destiny

I can't see how they would use this to sieze power anyway. The Fireflies are no match for the military, especially now that their numbers had been decimated on their trip to the lab at the end. If the military found out they had a cure, they could take it by force. What exactly would they want to hold it ransom for? It's not like they want a load of money, the whole world has come to rely on absolute necessities which they already have.

Kirby wrote: »

It seems to me that the world got on fine while humanity was crumbling. Plant life, animals, etc. Humanity would live on anyway without a cure anyway as the infected slowly die of old age, exposure or starvation, and isolated settlements in the middle of nowhere live on unmolested by the infestation.

The infected keep infecting though. We see at the start of the game that the military are doing checks even 20 years later on people to see if they've become infected. The risk of getting infected is still very real, it's not just a case of waiting for them to die out. And we have no real idea how the natural world is taking this. Who knows how many species might have gone extinct because of it?

SouthTippBass wrote: »

You know what would have been nice? If the game gave us the choice weather to hand over Ellie to Marleane when the elevator opens in the carpark of the hospital. Or even just to leave her on the bed in the operating room instead.

I'm glad I didn't get the choice. I would have chosen to leave Ellie and then the ending would have lost a massive amount of impact on me.

Kirby wrote: »

They were both armed. Call me heartless, but I would have done the same thing.

Both armed but neither was willing to attack. The doctor won't touch you with his scalpel and Marlene tries to convince Joel to do "the right thing" peacefully when she lowers her gun, even though she could have just shot him and left Ellie back. Instead Joel is the one who shoots her so that he can get his own way. He can even leave her alone and still make off with Ellie but he turns to finish the job. At that point, it's completely cold blooded.

Also, for everyone taking shots at Marlene for "abandoning" Ellie and being a coward, remember that Ellie was completely willing to go along with Joel and Tess that time. That at least was a choice that Ellie got to make, Joel taking her from the hospital wasn't.

NotorietyH

Yeah I think it's my own cynical inference that made me not have faith in the fireflies. I think what was partly it, at the start of the game that I thought the big reveal would be that the fireflies were going to use the vaccine for some nefarious purposes. I thought that would be the big sucker punch, working all the time to get Ellie to them only to realise they are just as bad as everyone else. I'm really glad that wasn't the ending. It would be terribly cliched. I think I was watching out for signs for that ending though which might have made me view the fireflies more negatively than they're portrayed.

C14N

NotorietyH wrote: »

Yeah I think it's my own cynical inference that made me not have faith in the fireflies. I think what was partly it, at the start of the game that I thought the big reveal would be that the fireflies were going to use the vaccine for some nefarious purposes. I thought that would be the big sucker punch, working all the time to get Ellie to them only to realise they are just as bad as everyone else. I'm really glad that wasn't the ending. It would be terribly cliched. I think I was watching out for signs for that ending though which might have made me view the fireflies more negatively than they're portrayed.

I think a lot of people kind of want the Fireflies to be the bad guys. I don't think they're saints by any means (killing Joel, while actually a good idea, would have been pretty bad) but it still seems to me like their goals are generally pretty noble. I think the fact that the guy is pushing Joel around after he just lost Ellie makes a lot of people angry toward them as well.

mystic86

http://www.videogamer.com/ps3/the_last_of_us/features/article/the_last_of_us_final_hours_the_generations_perfect_ending.html

mystic86

http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2013/06/21/the-last-of-us-single-player-dlc-is-a-side-story-first-draft-of-the-campaign-included-a-dog/

cloud493

Mind blowing time.... Ish changed his name to David :eek:

Zero-Cool

cloud493 wrote: »

Mind blowing time.... Ish changed his name to David :eek:

I was thinking the exact same! Would be cool if the DLC put you in charge of Ish, maybe at the part of leaving the sewer.

Fantastic game. Kind of a hopeless ending. Still not as tragic as The Walking Dead. Clem and Lee's story hit me way more than Joel and Ellie.

I was fully expecting to be given a choice at the end to hand her over or kill marlene. I was waiting for the kill option but the game took over anyway which I'm glad it did.

One thing I was annoyed about was Ellies jokes thing? I never heard her reference a joke book and she never stopped to tell a joke. I would always check on her for convo options but no jokes. I will definitely have to play through it again with a collectibles guide.

Playthrough was 15 hours 30 minutes and collected 101 of 141 items.

James Forde

SouthTippBass wrote: »

Best use of a giraffe in a game.

Please tell me I wasn't the only one that tried to shoot them?

cloud493

You tried to shoot them lovely giraffes? :pac:

mystic86

James Forde wrote: »

Please tell me I wasn't the only one that tried to shoot them?

Scum... : )

Zero-Cool

So, I read in another foum that Nolan North confirmed that David was going to rape Ellie. Can't find any interview or vid with the evidence but what do ye think? I think David was a cannibal alright and he was doing his best to keep Ellie alive while the rest wanted to kill her. Plus the men said she was 'david's new toy'.

Also, ye think ellie ate human or deer from David?

Kirby

sheehy83 wrote: »

So, I read in another foum that Nolan North confirmed that David was going to rape Ellie.

Well, if he wasn't infected before, he sure as hell would have been after. And yeah, I think it was fairly obvious where that scene was headed. Sure Ellie says "He tried to..." as soon as Joel comes running in.

C14N

sheehy83 wrote: »

So, I read in another foum that Nolan North confirmed that David was going to rape Ellie. Can't find any interview or vid with the evidence but what do ye think? I think David was a cannibal alright and he was doing his best to keep Ellie alive while the rest wanted to kill her. Plus the men said she was 'david's new toy'.

Also, ye think ellie ate human or deer from David?

I thought this was made fairly clear and it was the reason we were supposed to hate David in particular. I definitely got the vibe of him coercing Ellie and that was the only reason he wanted to keep her around but that he was definitely planning on raping her if that didn't work.

Zero-Cool

Ya, definitely sounded like it from what ellie said 'he was gonna..' But was trying to think of what david was actually doing. I was too busy trying to get the knife.

mystic86

well he did touch her hand when she was in that cell and said that she was 'special' - so it was at that point that I thought he was probably planning something to do with rape or something

Zero-Cool

Nice little interview with Nolan North on playing David

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiVmKnrjBMQ

Kirby

I like that take on characters. Assholes never think they are assholes so it makes sense to play them that way.

mystic86

http://kotaku.com/turning-a-beautiful-model-into-a-clicker-from-the-las-553488092

mystic86

Sorry for the lack of direct capture, and for the fact that the audio is ridiculously low (I just shot this now and I couldn't turn it up cause I'd wake the people in the house here) but this is one of my favourite moments from my playthrough, I literally LOL'd when she said that comment at the end!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCdS8aOq_yg

mystic86

My favourite pics from my playthrough:

http://imgur.com/a/qm7xu