Is it ok to hit your dog?

Rowanvella199

Was having a debate with a friend earlier who is stating that it is very difficult to train your dog without the use of light slaps etc. As I have never owned I would be interested in hearing opinions from other dog owners on this matter. I personally feel that violance should not be used on animals and that in all situations positive reinforncment would suffice.
Would love to know your opinions....

DBB

Absolutely, positively no need at all op! To me, it's like slapping kids, in that if you have to do it, you've done something wrong!
Dogs that are highly trained to do really impressive work, like bomb/drug/cadaver detection, search and rescue, disaster site recovery, dogs for the disabled, other therapy dogs, assistance dogs, are all taught to do their thing without a hand ever laid on them except in friendliness. If it's good enough for them, and effective enough for them, then there's no argument for any other owners of any other dogs!
That's leaving aside the ethics of it: qualified trainers and behaviourists sign codes of conduct as membership of professional organisations where they commit never to raise a hand to a dog, or do anything to frighten, startle or hurt a dog. This reflects the fact that good professionals simply don't have to hurt a dog to train it, nor do they need to instruct anyone to do so.
If you'd like some good stuff to back up your argument, have a look at http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org.uk.
Good luck! The force of good training is with you :-D

Rowanvella199

DBB wrote: »

Absolutely, positively no need at all op! To me, it's like slapping kids, in that if you have to do it, you've done something wrong!
Dogs that are highly trained to do really impressive work, like bomb/drug/cadaver detection, search and rescue, disaster site recovery, dogs for the disabled, other therapy dogs, assistance dogs, are all taught to do their thing without a hand ever laid on them except in friendliness. If it's good enough for them, and effective enough for them, then there's no argument for any other owners of any other dogs!
That's leaving aside the ethics of it: qualified trainers and behaviourists sign codes of conduct as membership of professional organisations where they commit never to raise a hand to a dog, or do anything to frighten, startle or hurt a dog. This reflects the fact that good professionals simply don't have to hurt a dog to train it, nor do they need to instruct anyone to do so.
If you'd like some good stuff to back up your argument, have a look at http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org.uk.
Good luck! The force of good training is with you :-D

I agree 100 percent, the argument has now become quite heated. I put your points across to my friend, he asked me to ask you if you have a dog?

ABajaninCork

No.

DBB

Rowanvella199 wrote: »

I agree 100 percent, the argument has now become quite heated. I put your points across to my friend, he asked me to ask you if you have a dog?

Yes! I own two dogs now, one of whom is a professional dog working for a State agency, trained by me, coz that's what I do! If i raised a hand to her in jest, she'd wag her tail... She has no idea what it means. In other words, she got to the highest levels of her particular field with ne'er a harsh word nor a raised hand. Same goes for pet dogs, I've trained hundreds of them, some with really serious behavioural problems, but have never resorted to any slapping, shouting or anything the colour of it. This is not just me on a personal crusade... I'm simply conforming to the codes of conduct of the various professional organisations that I and many others are members of. Science has shown us how to teach dogs without coercion...That site I linked you to explains it all!
Another huge group of dogs who must be trained without any form of coercion is herding dogs. And whilst the hunting fraternity have some who don't cover themselves in glory, most hunting folk know that hitting your dog is a damn risky thing to do... It's all about trust with any dog, and once you start hitting them, you've lost their trust.

miss flutter ups

Hi I'm new so go easy! But from my experience light punishment (so to speak) is quick and effective. Please understand I'm a huge dog lover but I feel to enforce your authority (no more than an alpha family member) a nip on the bum as in the fleshy bits is very effective! From rearing what was reared and turned out to b an absolute pet, I feel in many ways it's a case of being cruel to b kind! I think we need to stop humanising wonderful, yet completely different to us animals! You only have to look at how d omega is treated to understand that they respond to sharp slaps much easier than talking! I think dogs need to know who's alpha and once that's established loyalty kicks in. Along with teaching doggys good manners I feel hugs kissys and general lovey doveyness is essential

ABajaninCork

Nope! Still don't agree. I've never hit my sometimes wilful Shih Tzu nor any other dog I've owned. And I've had Dobies as well as Heinz 57's and a JRT. Never saw the need to hit them.

DBB

miss flutter ups wrote: »

Hi I'm new so go easy! But from my experience light punishment (so to speak) is quick and effective. Please understand I'm a huge dog lover but I feel to enforce your authority (no more than an alpha family member) a nip on the bum as in the fleshy bits is very effective! From rearing what was reared and turned out to b an absolute pet, I feel in many ways it's a case of being cruel to b kind! I think we need to stop humanising wonderful, yet completely different to us animals! You only have to look at how d omega is treated to understand that they respond to sharp slaps much easier than talking! I think dogs need to know who's alpha and once that's established loyalty kicks in. Along with teaching doggys good manners I feel hugs kissys and general lovey doveyness is essential

The problem with everything you've said here is that dogs do not have an Alpha/Beta/Omega social structure, and it is highly debatable whether their ancestors, the wolf, do either... At least, not in the context in which you and some trainers mean it.
Again, to save me having to explain it, please take a read of http://dogwelfarecampaign.org.uk
because it explains in reasonable detail where you're going wrong. Take the time to read it, please, and take a look at the weighty organisations who put their support to it. Please. This belief in alpha stuff when it comes to dogs simply has to stop... It has been disproved, I cannot say it any simpler than that. Snakeoil. Poppycock. Bunkum. Disproven. To say this is anthropomorphisation is simply wrong: dogs, not humans, have been at the centre of extensive dog behaviour research in the past 15 yrs... This is not anthropomorphisation, it is good, hard science.
Like I said above, there is simply no need to use any nip-replacements, pinches, slaps or taps on dogs. I never said they can't work, but they can and often do cause more problems than you started with. Believe me, I see it every day. There is always, always, always an ethical, non-physical alternative to dealing with all problem behaviours or misbehaviour is dogs. Always. In light of this, it is simply unethical to use any physical coercion in the name of training.

endacl

Same as children. If you need to hit them, you probably shouldn't have them.

Rowanvella199

DBB wrote: »

Yes! I own two dogs now, one of whom is a professional dog working for a State agency, trained by me, coz that's what I do! If i raised a hand to her in jest, she'd wag her tail... She has no idea what it means. In other words, she got to the highest levels of her particular field with ne'er a harsh word nor a raised hand. Same goes for pet dogs, I've trained hundreds of them, some with really serious behavioural problems, but have never resorted to any slapping, shouting or anything the colour of it. This is not just me on a personal crusade... I'm simply conforming to the codes of conduct of the various professional organisations that I and many others are members of. Science has shown us how to teach dogs without coercion...That site I linked you to explains it all!
Another huge group of dogs who must be trained without any form of coercion is herding dogs. And whilst the hunting fraternity have some who don't cover themselves in glory, most hunting folk know that hitting your dog is a damn risky thing to do... It's all about trust with any dog, and once you start hitting them, you've lost their trust.

Thank you for your input. In my opinion you are certainly right and i think the majority of your arguments my friend had no awnser for.

Mrs W

I agree with ms flutter ups, I have a very strong willed lab and after 8 weeks of training plus months of me continuing the methods,she still pulls the arms of us taking her for a walk. I got a choke chain and she got a few light slaps and stern words, now everyone enjoys their walks and she gets much more because she's easier to handle

DBB

Rowanvella199 wrote: »

Thank you for your input. In my opinion you are certainly right and i think the majority of your arguments my friend had no awnser for.

That kinda sums up why justifying using coercive training techniques falls flat on its face. Glad I was able to help. I'd love to get your friend, and any other doubters, into a big room to watch a good, qualified trainer or behaviourist work with a difficult dog... I would defy them not to leave converted!

endacl

DBB wrote: »

That kinda sums up why justifying using coercive training techniques falls flat on its face. Glad I was able to help. I'd love to get your friend, and any other doubters, into a big room to watch a good, qualified trainer or behaviourist work with a difficult dog... I would defy them not to leave converted!

Dogs are fairly straightforward. Once they're not confused and stressed by confusion.

ABajaninCork

Mrs W wrote: »

I agree with ms flutter ups, I have a very strong willed lab and after 8 weeks of training plus months of me continuing the methods,she still pulls the arms of us taking her for a walk. I got a choke chain and she got a few light slaps and stern words, now everyone enjoys their walks and she gets much more because she's easier to handle

WTF?? Your dog 'enjoys' her walks because the choke chain is hurting her. Not to mention the 'light slaps'. :mad:

A choke chain is beyond cruel. And cheap. Why don't you get her a decent Halti or a Dogmatic? Much kinder to the dog, and I bet you don't have to slap her either.

endacl

Feck. A lab is one of the more 'trainable' and compliant breeds. I've a pal who directs his using only hand signals. No need to choke. Ever.

DBB

Mrs W wrote: »

I agree with ms flutter ups, I have a very strong willed lab and after 8 weeks of training plus months of me continuing the methods,she still pulls the arms of us taking her for a walk. I got a choke chain and she got a few light slaps and stern words, now everyone enjoys their walks and she gets much more because she's easier to handle

No need. Just, simply no need.
Both I and my peers in the world of dog training have dealt with hundreds, probably thousands of bad pullers, big, small, and I'll bet, even worse than yours. Never once, ever, have any of us had to use a choke chain, or slaps or stern words.
Dogs are so soft and biddable, humans get away with so, so much. But meet the wrong dog, and this sort of thing will get you bitten.
I meet a number of dogs every year who become aggressive towards their owner when they see "that face" or hear "that tone of voice" which predict to them that a slap is on the way. They have had to resort to defending themselves from their own owner... And I'm not talking huge abuse here, I'm talking dogs who've had the little slap, or tap, or pinch on the soft, fleshy parts.The latest of those was just today. Could somebody who advocates slapping dogs, or using stern words, please advise me on how best to deal with a dog who's doing this?
Thanks.

miss flutter ups

Ok I've read some very valid posts but as a dog owner of a lab/Alsatian that has since passed, I rared her the only way I knew how. The whole alpha/omega is just my way but I'm sure every breed is different. My madam was a girly (haven't experience with a male) She had the strength of an alsation and the personality of a lab. When she stepped out of line she got a sharp slap/a giving out to/was ignored for a couple of hours, she sulked as most young ones do and then would lick up to me, id give her a big cuddle we'd have a little chat and then all would b forgiven. This procedure only lasted a few months b4 she new right from wrong and she was my little babs. I know omega/alpha is disputed but as she grew older a simple look would b enough to signal mammy wasn't happy and Sheba would adjust her behaviour.

Tigger

my dogs love me and only need to know what i want
i adopted a boxer a few months ago and i'll soon have some before and after pics
no hitting just attention and love and play
choke chains etc are barbaric
no judging i've had dogs for years and years ago hitting and choking were mainstream

miss flutter ups

Just to add to this I never bothered training her to stop pulling on the lead/i lived quite near to the beach so it was never a real issue. She was so happy to b out and about I didn't feel d need. My corrections only came into play with nervous beach walkers/dogs. I hope I don't sound like a dog abuser im far from it and tbh take issue with d poor little mites left howling out of loneliness in cramped back gardens

DBB

But none of that, ie giving her looks etc is nothing to do with dominance, leadership, alpha stuff. It is purely the dog knowing that doing the bold thing, in your presence, results in punishment, so she doesn't do it. Indeed, research has shown that dogs are far less likely to do bold stuff (like stealing food) when they know they're being watched, that even goes for dogs that have not been trained or punished not to do said bold stuff.
The size of the dog is immaterial, my professional dog as posted about above is a large GSD. Breed is also largely immaterial, other than having to be aware of breed traits which may make some things more challenging to teach. But no matter how challenging, it's never necessary, knowing what we know now, to resort to coercion.
Just to clarify, there is no "dispute" about the alpha, dominance, leadership end of things. It's been blown out of the water. That site I linked you to is great, but it's also 5 years old... That 5 years has seen an exponential growth in research into dog behaviour, cognition, and learning theory.
I completely understand that you did what you did at the time because you knew no better... I was exactly the same. I'm a product of the Barbara Woodhouse era, a woman that makes present-day trainers and behaviourists cringe... Morto!
If you have a few quid to spare, or want to hint at someone for a birthday or Christmas pressie, get your mitts on "In Defence of Dogs" by John Bradshaw. It's a much more up to date version of where dog training and behaviour is at now.

miss flutter ups

I appreciate that and when I decide to adopt another puppy I'll read into it. I know nothings black and white. I'll need another few years as my heart is still broken but I just posted what worked for me, although id have hated to think she ever obeyed out of fear alone it did work for 14 years. I was so honoured to b there at d end and she wanted noone else. Although in agony she was wagging that tail and lifting that big head at any sound i feel my job was done, a happy and content dog right till d end

cocker5

Mrs W wrote: »

I agree with ms flutter ups, I have a very strong willed lab and after 8 weeks of training plus months of me continuing the methods,she still pulls the arms of us taking her for a walk. I got a choke chain and she got a few light slaps and stern words, now everyone enjoys their walks and she gets much more because she's easier to handle

Im sorry but choke chains are just wrong. on so many levels.

You dog pulls on the lead beacuse you didnt train her properly.

My cocker is the same a terrible puller, would NEVER use a choke chain. I use a head collar (dogmatic) instead far more effective and less damagaing to the dogs neck and less painfull.

Im sorry Mrs W but its wrong to train a dog by inflicting pain / fear and thats what choke chains do.

Im not going to even get into the slapping of your dog your communctaion skills are lacking. and as a result your dogs understaning of what you want is also lacking.

:eek:

cocker5

I would like to point out my cocker is a willfull little mite, pulls on the lead (before the dogmatic head collar), wrecked the house for 6 months as a pup.... give him an inch and he will take a mile BUT i have never slapped him or inflicted pain on him or used a choke chain or other cruel training methods.

Now at 8 years of age he is the most doscile, well mannered, sweet, loveable little rogue and all this without choke chains, slapping and abuse.

:rolleyes:

Gumbi

DBB wrote: »

or using stern words.

I snap my fingers and raise my voice if Maxi doesn't listen to me, surely that's acceptable? I think that's perfectly acceptable to be honest.

borderlinemeath

miss flutter ups wrote: »

I appreciate that and when I decide to adopt another puppy I'll read into it. I know nothings black and white. I'll need another few years as my heart is still broken but I just posted what worked for me, although id have hated to think she ever obeyed out of fear alone it did work for 14 years. I was so honoured to b there at d end and she wanted noone else. Although in agony she was wagging that tail and lifting that big head at any sound i feel my job was done, a happy and content dog right till d end

I think a hell of a lot of people who grew up with this thinking, keep up the same methods and that's where the problems start. I remember 20 years ago the family golden retriever being put on a choke chain. It never stopped him pulling. He was terrified of the 'man' in the house (my brother in law) because he would be giving him the odd slap and yank of the chain. Back then people didn't have any other methods to use.

6 years ago when I got my 'own' dog, I got numerous books on how to train and get the best from her. I still made some mistakes but I never have to touch her to get her to do exactly what I want her to do, nor my (very nervous at the start) rescue boy. Had I or anybody else laid a finger on him they would probably have broken the last nerve he had left. A bag of treats or whatever may be your dogs motivator (could be a squeaky toy) goes a lot lot further in getting your dog to do exactly what you want/need it to do. Coupled with the right tone of voice and praise it works wonders, you would be really surprised.

Wibbs

DBB wrote: »

The problem with everything you've said here is that dogs do not have an Alpha/Beta/Omega social structure, and it is highly debatable whether their ancestors, the wolf, do either... At least, not in the context in which you and some trainers mean it.

+1 DBB, it seems they don't. A wolf pack is an extended family, where authority is based on respect and deference not dominance. Just like in healthy human family groups*. The "alpha" male and female are basically mum and dad and the "betas" etc are their kids. The dynamic is based on mutual survival and trust.

Now some research does show wolves can have different roles within this family structure. IIRC there are "warners" who are hyper alert to threats, there are runners who well do all the chasing in hunts and there's even a peacemaker who dives in when squabbles kick off. That wolfman bloke Shaun Ellis holds that role in his pack. Even if the daddy/dominant guy kicks off with one of the kids he sticks his head between them and makes calming noises and gestures. Probably "ah here bud leave it oooouuu" in wolf. The crazy fecker. Even though he's sticking his head into a fast moving hairy mass of very big teeth and jaw snaps he very rarely even gets a nip and that's accidental(and which apparently they get all apologetic about afterwards, licking him to death and such). All down to trust. If he slapped one it would game over for trust and respect.

Just my take now, but maybe some "bad" behaviours in some dogs are echoes of those ancient roles coming through(and ones we selected for)? EG the very boundary defensive dog that barks at the slightest thing might be a "warner"? That early on his human family encouraged him or her in some way to take up that role?






*they're actually more similar to us than the other great apes in social behaviour, which helps explain how we ended up cooperating. A wolf cub brought into a paleolithic hunter gatherer group would understand the general gist of social interaction. Even those rare examples of children being "adopted" by wolves and feral dogs shows it can easily go the other way too. A child would last no time with a band of chimps.

DBB

Gumbi wrote: »

I snap my fingers and raise my voice if Maxi doesn't listen to me, surely that's acceptable? I think that's perfectly acceptable to be honest.

I think you're taking my comment a little out of context there... Of course it's ok to give a verbal reminder if necessary, as long as the dog knows what it means, and to do this properly, you've got to actively teach the dog what a verbal warning means. Otherwise, the risk is that the dog stops doing what he's doing because you've just given him a fright, or in some cases because he has learned that "that voice" is a precursor to physical punishment (not referring to you here, just generally).
Without context, the danger with verbal corrections is that they often morph into verbal abuse, mainly because the dog has no clue what they mean.
Some really sensitive or nervous dogs will stop dead in their tracks at the merest raised voice, but this is not obedience, it's anxiety.
To teach context to the dog, it involves using a stern(ish) word, such as "no" or "ah ah" or whatever, just before you, for example, put the dog on a time-out, or turn your back on him and walk away from him, or don't give him an expected reward.
So, just say you're teaching a dog to sit instead of jumping up on you. You ask him to sit. He jumps up. You say "ah ah", then turn your back, walking out of the room if necessary with your bag of treats. Next time, the dog sits when you ask, and gets his reward straight away. Both need to be repeated and done consistently. The former is teaching him that jumping up will go unrewarded and punished by you leaving and not rewarding him, the latter teaches him that sitting works. The former also teaches him that when you say "ah ah", it's a precursor to him losing out, and so "ah ah" becomes a verbal marker for the dog to quit jumping up/humping the cushion/hassling your other dog etc etc. If you give the verbal warning, and the dog quickly stops and reverts back to nice behaviour, then reward him, tell him he's great! This feedback (good and bad) is important, and dogs get very tuned into it when we use it well.
Many people who refuse to accept ethical training techniques will accuse those of us who do use ethical techniques of being soft, that we can't take on really bad cases... One fella who routinely uses shock collars to train dogs calls us "biscuit flingers", thinking that all we do is reward, reward, reward, with no consequences for bad behaviour. But they are utterly mistaken on the latter, really showing up their own ignorance and lack of training, I suppose. We do use punishment for bad behaviour, but it is punishment which is 100% non-physical, and also deemed by human and adult behaviourists as not causing damage, yet highly effective. In other words, they are ethical punishments. I've already mentioned them: with-holding an expected reward, and time-outs. Extremely effective when used correctly, but do not cause huge or lasting psychological trauma.

OldNotWIse

No.

OldNotWIse

endacl wrote: »

Feck. A lab is one of the more 'trainable' and compliant breeds. I've a pal who directs his using only hand signals. No need to choke. Ever.

There is nothing more irritating than someone who does not train their dog...and then punishes the dog for not being trained!We were minding a dog for someone a while ago who had not been trained. My mum was screeching "sit! sit!" at him and he was just looking at her in confusion. She got so p1ssd with him for not "doing what he was told" - I had to point out that they dont inherently know what sit means like??? :rolleyes: ffs

The saddest thing is a dog that cowers or moves away when a hand is raised. If I saw someone hitting their dog I'd rip into them. And if anyone so much as touched a hair on my dogs body - god help them.

Over... because threads like this can kill a happy Friday buzz lol

westies4ever

Some great advice here. Both my dogs were awful pullers and they still have their moments but its rare and only if something REALLY sets them off - a cat crossing the road in front of us while we're out for example.

If they're pulling, I tell them no and I stop dead and get them to sit by my side. Then we start again, if they pull again I repeat. They soon click on that by pulling, they aint going anywhere and they settle down. No punishment needed.

miss flutter ups

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I think a hell of a lot of people who grew up with this thinking, keep up the same methods and that's where the problems start. I remember 20 years ago the family golden retriever being put on a choke chain. It never stopped him pulling. He was terrified of the 'man' in the house (my brother in law) because he would be giving him the odd slap and yank of the chain. Back then people didn't have any other methods to use.

6 years ago when I got my 'own' dog, I got numerous books on how to train and get the best from her. I still made some mistakes but I never have to touch her to get her to do exactly what I want her to do, nor my (very nervous at the start) rescue boy. Had I or anybody else laid a finger on him they would probably have broken the last nerve he had left. A bag of treats or whatever may be your dogs motivator (could be a squeaky toy) goes a lot lot further in getting your dog to do exactly what you want/need it to do. Coupled with the right tone of voice and praise it works wonders, you would be really surprised.

Yea totally agree with the choke chain tbh pulling never bothered me I liked that she was excited. The thing is the slaps were very rare. Would U agree with shouting? Basically, if she over pushed her look she'd get a warning, then she'd get another warning and this would usually do the trick. I don't believe she associated this with having been given a slap 6 months previously. The slaps were used when she'd ignore d warnings and would have this bold defiant look about her! It was so cute but I couldn't give in.

Having said that, this dog got away with murder! There was a rule that Sheba wasn't allowed on d new leather suite, it lasted about a week!

Must add I used the reward/encouragement method with easy singles when training her to sit/roll over etc I know easy singles aren't good for dogs but I was only ten

I have a buck cat now and there ain't no training that little tear away ha ha