Is it ok to hit your dog?

noddyone2

Rowanvella199 wrote: »

Was having a debate with a friend earlier who is stating that it is very difficult to train your dog without the use of light slaps etc. As I have never owned I would be interested in hearing opinions from other dog owners on this matter. I personally feel that violance should not be used on animals and that in all situations positive reinforncment would suffice.
Would love to know your opinions....

Never ever hit a dog. Voice is the tool to use. And yes, I have a dog, have always had dogs since childhood. Hitting teaches fear, nothing else. Here's an example: A neighbour has a terrier on a farm, she let him out last thing at night to pee, he chased a rabbit across the field. Eventually he came back and (in her words)''I gave him a good hiding''
Now, consider: What did that little dog learn from that?
In my opinion, he learnt that to come back means getting beaten.

fatmammycat

Mrs W wrote: »

I agree with ms flutter ups, I have a very strong willed lab and after 8 weeks of training plus months of me continuing the methods,she still pulls the arms of us taking her for a walk. I got a choke chain and she got a few light slaps and stern words, now everyone enjoys their walks and she gets much more because she's easier to handle

That's mad, I've a 15 month old male GSD who I can walk on a flat lead thanks to training him not to pull, iv;e never had to 'slap' him or choke him, or yell at him or anything that might undermine his trust in me. 8 weeks? 8 weeks is nothing, training as far as I can see is ongoing throught out a dog's like, not just something you attempt for a while and give up if it doesn't work.

wolfpawnat

The UCD veterinary department recommended way to train your dog, according to their dog behaviourist, is positive reinforcement. So unwanted behaviours, you ignore the dog dramatically, say "ah-ah" or "no" and turn your back to them, that gets their attention, when they stop the unwanted behaviour, give praise and on occasion treats. To train them, praise anything they do right, they want praise, they want to feel the "pack/master/whatever" is pleased with them. To them there is no greater good. Dogs want to be good, dramatically pretending they are not there is the last thing they want. The similarities between under 5 year old children and dogs are startling! It is one of the ways to raise a child too.

Hitting a dog creates fear and could lead to the animal snapping in defence (as we would do ourselves).

muddypaws

miss flutter ups wrote: »

Hi I'm new so go easy! But from my experience light punishment (so to speak) is quick and effective. Please understand I'm a huge dog lover but I feel to enforce your authority (no more than an alpha family member) a nip on the bum as in the fleshy bits is very effective! From rearing what was reared and turned out to b an absolute pet, I feel in many ways it's a case of being cruel to b kind! I think we need to stop humanising wonderful, yet completely different to us animals! You only have to look at how d omega is treated to understand that they respond to sharp slaps much easier than talking! I think dogs need to know who's alpha and once that's established loyalty kicks in. Along with teaching doggys good manners I feel hugs kissys and general lovey doveyness is essential

miss flutter ups wrote: »

Ok I've read some very valid posts but as a dog owner of a lab/Alsatian that has since passed, I rared her the only way I knew how. The whole alpha/omega is just my way but I'm sure every breed is different. My madam was a girly (haven't experience with a male) She had the strength of an alsation and the personality of a lab. When she stepped out of line she got a sharp slap/a giving out to/was ignored for a couple of hours, she sulked as most young ones do and then would lick up to me, id give her a big cuddle we'd have a little chat and then all would b forgiven. This procedure only lasted a few months b4 she new right from wrong and she was my little babs. I know omega/alpha is disputed but as she grew older a simple look would b enough to signal mammy wasn't happy and Sheba would adjust her behaviour.

Sorry but if the highlighted parts aren't humanising an animals behaviour, I don't know what is, which you said in your original post we should stop doing.

I'm not my dog's mammy, as they are a different species to me and they know that they are. I have a large pack of dogs, and I have never once seen a dog do an alpha roll to one of the others. The position of 'alpha' is very fluid with my lot, one would be in charge in one situation, and another would take over in another situation. I live with a pack of domestic dogs, not captive wolves, on which all the wolf, alpha/omega studies were based and, as DBB and Wibbs have said, have been completely disproved.

Do i hit my dogs? Nope. The one dog that I have here that I handreared just looks at me as if to say 'what are you doing?' if I, as DBB does, playfully raise my hand. However, quite a few of my others, who are all rescues, cower if the brush appears, or my hand goes up (not to hit them obviously, but they assume it is so). one of my poor dogs who came out of the pound will crawl into the smallest space he can find if there are raised voices in the house, and with a teenager here, it does happen. It is amazing how 12 dogs can all live together without killing each other and without me having to resort to hitting them to achieve it :rolleyes:

smiley_face400

Having not read all posts on this thread I apologise if I repeat something said.

Violence or physical discipline is never the right way to go with dogs. In fact, it can make them very insecure which leads to viciousness more often than using other measures. I'd never even put my dog's nose in his wee if he pee'd in the house, it took 3 days to house train my current dog simply by pointing at the wee and saying "outside" every time he went in the house and then he got a small treat (the tiny Royal Canin ones are good as they're not fattening) and lots of praise when he went outside. We trained him all the usual tricks (sit, lie down, roll over, stay, etc.) in the same manner as well as teaching him to "high 5".

Positive reinforcement from a young age is the best way to go. They learn that if they do something they're not supposed to then they don't get your praise and/or a treat (I don't condone giving dogs treats All the time just in case that wasn't clear)

kylith

Mrs W wrote: »

I agree with ms flutter ups, I have a very strong willed lab and after 8 weeks of training plus months of me continuing the methods,she still pulls the arms of us taking her for a walk. I got a choke chain and she got a few light slaps and stern words, now everyone enjoys their walks and she gets much more because she's easier to handle

Your dog is walking better because 1) it's being choked and 2) it knows it will be hit if it doesn't. Imo it's bullying, not training; you are teaching your dog to fear your hands.

Anyone who thinks that an odd slap does no harm should see my Tegan. Genuinely one of the nicest, sweetest, most gentle and people loving dogs that you will ever meet. In her early life she was slapped and kicked to 'train' her before being dumped in the pound for being 'useless for hunting'. The rescue I got her from reported that she urinated when approached by people and tried to hide. She is still nervous of raised voices and sudden movements and she runs for cover with her tail between her legs if you try to step over her because she is afraid of people's feet. She is, tellingly for the 'a bit of a slap' trainers, now an enthusiastic, if untrained, ratter with a strong prey drive that had been completely stifled by fear caused by harsh training methods. I'll never know how badly she was treated; whether it was genuine abuse or the odd smack, but what I do know is the effect it had on her.

borderlinemeath

kylith wrote: »

Your dog is walking better because 1) it's being choked and 2) it knows it will be hit if it doesn't. Imo it's bullying, not training; you are teaching your dog to fear your hands.

Anyone who thinks that an odd slap does no harm should see my Tegan. Genuinely one of the nicest, sweetest, most gentle and people loving dogs that you will ever meet. In her early life she was slapped and kicked to 'train' her before being dumped in the pound for being 'useless for hunting'. The rescue I got her from reported that she urinated when approached by people and tried to hide. She is still nervous of raised voices and sudden movements and she runs for cover with her tail between her legs if you try to step over her because she is afraid of people's feet. She is, tellingly for the 'a bit of a slap' trainers, now an enthusiastic, if untrained, ratter with a strong prey drive that had been completely stifled by fear caused by harsh training methods. I'll never know how badly she was treated; whether it was genuine abuse or the odd smack, but what I do know is the effect it had on her.

Agreed. I have had a dog here that has been so badly effected by forceful training that he cannot be touched and looking him in the eye literally sets him shaking. He is terrified of humans to such an extent that he will not allow contact unless it is on his terms - ie he will come up and sniff you if he feels it's ok to, and has determined that you aren't a threat/going to try and pet him or touch him. Putting the lead on him to go for a walk is the closest contact he will bear because he enjoys his walks so much. He loves the company of other dogs and loves his grub, but humans have scarred him psychologically for life so it's very questionable as to whether he will ever enjoy tactile comfort. He'll tolerate the very few he can trust but for now, that number can be counted on one hand.

borderlinemeath

miss flutter ups wrote: »

Yea totally agree with the choke chain tbh pulling never bothered me I liked that she was excited. The thing is the slaps were very rare. Would U agree with shouting? Basically, if she over pushed her look she'd get a warning, then she'd get another warning and this would usually do the trick. I don't believe she associated this with having been given a slap 6 months previously. The slaps were used when she'd ignore d warnings and would have this bold defiant look about her! It was so cute but I couldn't give in.

Having said that, this dog got away with murder! There was a rule that Sheba wasn't allowed on d new leather suite, it lasted about a week!

Must add I used the reward/encouragement method with easy singles when training her to sit/roll over etc I know easy singles aren't good for dogs but I was only ten

I have a buck cat now and there ain't no training that little tear away ha ha

No, I don't shout. I used to have to shout for my girl to come back to me but since learning that she returns to praise I raise my voice to a high octave and whoop for her to come back, or use a whistle. Then while she's running back I'm yippee'ing and yay'ing that she's brilliant for coming back. It works so so much better. And they come back with a smile on their face rather than a sheepish or a bold look because they're looking forward to coming back because they know they're not going to be given out to.

kylith

I don't shout, but I do tend to put on my Stern Voice if I have to tell them something more than once and they know that when I use it I mean business. Slapping will only, as I said, teach the dog that your hands can hurt it. If they need to be disciplined for something (and only if you catch them in the act!) then separating them from you for a couple of minutes will get the job done.

T vanished into an overgrown field whilst on a walk at the weekend and it took everything I had not to roar and Eff and blind, but I knew that if she thought I was angry she'd never come back so I kept it as light as I could and gave her lots of pets when she reappeared; soaking wet, covered in burrs, and grinning like a loon.

mr bungle.

Would anyone slap their dog if they were bitten

Tranceypoo

noddyone2 wrote: »

Never ever hit a dog. Voice is the tool to use. And yes, I have a dog, have always had dogs since childhood. Hitting teaches fear, nothing else. Here's an example: A neighbour has a terrier on a farm, she let him out last thing at night to pee, he chased a rabbit across the field. Eventually he came back and (in her words)''I gave him a good hiding''
Now, consider: What did that little dog learn from that?
In my opinion, he learnt that to come back means getting beaten.

h

Similar situation with one of my neighbours, old lady with a small terrier cross type dog, he's very barky and yappy and very very unfriendly, whenever I would pass with my dog he would chase us up the lane, she calls him, he ignores her, eventually comes back and she smacks him, I said to her 'you do realise you're teaching him that his reward for coming back to you is a smack, it's no wonder he doesn't come back to you', might as well have said it in Cantonese for all the notice she took, I no longer take that route because of that. Horrible old bat of a woman.

ShaShaBear

My dog got a few light slaps as a pup from my dad, this was about 8 1/2 years ago, and it was all my father ever knew about training dogs. I moved him in with me after my dad passed away and it brings tears to my eyes if I lift my purse off the table in a hurry, because Shadow will shriek and drop to the floor. I have never in my life lifted a hand to him. He knows by my tone of voice if what he is attempting to do is wrong. Mind you, we can tell just by watching the speed at which he attempts something if he knows it's wrong, eg, sneaking in a half crouch and slowly slipping a tongue out to pick up a biscuit sitting on a saucer on the coffee table. He never takes his eye off you the entire time. All I have to do is say "Shaaaaadowww?" and he sits down and leaves it.

Coincidentally, every trick he knows (which ranges from sit to opening and closing the all the doors, which he knows by name) he has learned in the past two years using purely positive reinforcement from me.

Tell your friend the next time their child does something they shouldn't, to give them a good slap. Then present them with the opportunity to do it again. I guarantee you that your friend will see the fear in their eyes, because even the thought of doing it again will trigger the fear response. And if for some reason the temptation is absolutely too great and they do it again anyway, watch how utterly terrified that child will be, likely actually hiding from your friend to avoid the inevitable slap they got. Now, remember that the dog feels exactly the same, but cannot communicate that fear the same way as a child.

And above all, remember that a dog is not as submissive as a child. You keep hitting them and eventually they will simply tell you to p1ss off, with their teeth So what, you hit them again? You are simply provoking the dog into defending itself, and then the poor thing gets dumped in the pound, terrified of people's hands, because someone couldn't be bothered to train it properly.

Gumbi

mr bungle. wrote: »

Would anyone slap their dog if they were bitten

That's not the right question to ask. The meat of the matter is, do you need to slap the dog to get the respect you need and reprimand it? No. If I'm playing with my dog and she bites me hard. I'll say "HEY, NO" very sternly. That's her cue to calm down. And she knows this. And she calms down. And I didn't have to hit her to teach her this.

Tranceypoo

borderlinemeath wrote: »

No, I don't shout. I used to have to shout for my girl to come back to me but since learning that she returns to praise I raise my voice to a high octave and whoop for her to come back, or use a whistle. Then while she's running back I'm yippee'ing and yay'ing that she's brilliant for coming back. It works so so much better. And they come back with a smile on their face rather than a sheepish or a bold look because they're looking forward to coming back because they know they're not going to be given out to.

I do that too (on the rare occassions they would be off lead), works especially well for the younger dog (who is a bit hand shy, I've a feeling she got some smacks), it's so lovely to see her running back and straight into me for a big old cuddling session, even if I'm saying to her 'you little fecker I could kill you (for rolling in something/chasing something etc), as long as I'm saying it in a high pitched happy voice it doesn't matter!!

coffee_cake

If I get a nip or scratch while playing, I exclaim "ow! That hurts!" and possibly put them back down on the ground, and I get an apologetic lick and no more of it ...
No need to be hitting at all
It's all in the tone of voice


I need to find a way to get osky to stop barking at every noise while we're chilling out though, he has enough walks and toys and what have you to keep him occupied, and apparently he'll only do this "guarding" business when I'm around, he doesn't bark like that when I'm not...

ShaShaBear

bluewolf wrote: »

If I get a nip or scratch while playing, I exclaim "ow! That hurts!" and possibly put them back down on the ground, and I get an apologetic lick and no more of it ...
No need to be hitting at all
It's all in the tone of voice


I need to find a way to get osky to stop barking at every noise while we're chilling out though, he has enough walks and toys and what have you to keep him occupied, and apparently he'll only do this "guarding" business when I'm around, he doesn't bark like that when I'm not...

Its actually really easy. Teach him to bark on command. We have Shadow taught to "speak" either by saying the word or touching our chin. When he will bark on command, simply ask him to speak, then say "Shhh" and treat him when he is quiet. He will very quickly learn the meaning of the word is to be quiet.

coffee_cake

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Its actually really easy. Teach him to bark on command. We have Shadow taught to "speak" either by saying the word or touching our chin. When he will bark on command, simply ask him to speak, then say "Shhh" and treat him when he is quiet. He will very quickly learn the meaning of the word is to be quiet.

That's really clever, I'll try that. I've tried reassuring him that he doesn't need to bark or be worried, but I don't think it's that

borderlinemeath

mr bungle. wrote: »

Would anyone slap their dog if they were bitten

No, but I've never been bitten by a dog. And I'm around them all day every day. good ones, bad ones, big ones, small ones, ones that are frightened at first of new situations, ones that may not get on with others, well trained, not so well trained, dogs that may have a disability etc. But I've managed not to get bitten and if I did I would imagine it would be my own fault for not reading the dogs signal correctly.

wolfpawnat

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Its actually really easy. Teach him to bark on command. We have Shadow taught to "speak" either by saying the word or touching our chin. When he will bark on command, simply ask him to speak, then say "Shhh" and treat him when he is quiet. He will very quickly learn the meaning of the word is to be quiet.

^^^^

Exactly this. Make the dog know you have it covered unless you command otherwise, praise the good, "shh" "ah-ah" or what not the unwanted. As for the accidental nips, a yelp or "ouch" is perfect.

ShaShaBear

bluewolf wrote: »

That's really clever, I'll try that. I've tried reassuring him that he doesn't need to bark or be worried, but I don't think it's that

You'll get a lot of fun and enjoyment out of it. I advise you try to do them in quick succession, because we had a bit of an issue in between tricks where Shadow loved to demonstrate his amazing ability to bark, whether you asked him to or not. He would simply parade himself over to you, bark in your face, and then wait for his treat :P But as it stands now, we can tell him to shush before he starts barking (since we know who and what he likes to bark at) and it keeps him quiet. Slowly but surely he has actually started to associate the shush word with not barking at these things at all!

DBB

bluewolf wrote: »

That's really clever, I'll try that. I've tried reassuring him that he doesn't need to bark or be worried, but I don't think it's that

You could also, if you're sure it's only when you're there he barks, the very second he draws breath to bark, tell him a verbal warning, then get up and leave the room. So, if he barks, he loses you. Teaching to bark on command is great too, but it's nice to have a few options!

fatmammycat

mr bungle. wrote: »

Would anyone slap their dog if they were bitten

No, I wouldn't. For my dog to bite me, there would have to be an EXTREME reason, like pain or terror, or a redirection. So how would me striking him make any of those situations any better? All that would that prove to my dog was that in moments of stress I am not to be trusted either.
It's really not rocket science. Most dog go out of their way to be with and please their owners, if they make mistakes or do not respond to something you've asked them to do, the fault lies with you, you haven't given guidance, or you haven't trained the dog for the correct response.

I see it ALL the time with puppies, they're let do so many things that you know the owner will then frown upon in the adult dog. That's why patience and consistant training is so important, that's why reinforcing rules throughout a dog's life is vital. That's why trust is such a key element. People should stop setting their dogs up to fail and think, really think about what it is the want from their pets and stop taking short cuts to mask problems.

ShaShaBear

DBB wrote: »

You could also, if you're sure it's only when you're there he barks, the very second he draws breath to bark, tell him a verbal warning, then get up and leave the room. So, if he barks, he loses you. Teaching to bark on command is great too, but it's nice to have a few options!

I don't know if it's just my boy, but he's somehow managed to throw together this trick of sitting, putting a paw on my knee and barking once (it's actually more of a spastic growl, if you'll excuse my phrasing :rolleyes: ) and this apparently equates to "please". He only does it if you are holding his bowl, lead, a treat or if he wants to go outside. It's really odd, and he only started to do it when we taught him to speak.

PS, kids love it. "Shadow, say hello!" "Arrrooogoogoooroogooeoeooeo" (like I said, spastic growl). Queue kids going mental.

coffee_cake

DBB wrote: »

You could also, if you're sure it's only when you're there he barks, the very second he draws breath to bark, tell him a verbal warning, then get up and leave the room. So, if he barks, he loses you. Teaching to bark on command is great too, but it's nice to have a few options!

Mum complains that he only does it when I'm around!! So that's another excellent idea :cool:

He would simply parade himself over to you, bark in your face, and then wait for his treat

I can't imagine that from osky - he's the politest little doggy I've ever come across in my life. He'll sit for a treat, and he won't take it without encouragement sometimes. Then he'll have to and chew it politely somewhere, whereas kiki would have it swallowed whole in a second and back for more
Great ideas thanks guys, it gets a bit frustrating, especially as I can't have him in my room too long at night, he'll just bark at anything he hears through the window. Mum: "what are you talking about he's always completely quiet with me" ... :rolleyes::)

DBB

mr bungle. wrote: »

Would anyone slap their dog if they were bitten

No, there's no point. You need to look really deeply into it when it comes to bite, and ask, why did the dog feel the need to bite me just there?
Medical conditions aside, bites are always the culmination of a stream of warnings from a dog that he's uncomfortable about what you're doing. These warnings start with little signals like lip licking, raising a paw, averting the gaze, attempts to escape etc. If we ignore these, and we VERY often do purely because we don't interpret them properly, the dog has little alternative but to ask you with a little more force to desist. Lip-curling, growling, hackles up. Now, if these are ignored, the dog has to go to the next stage, lunging and snapping. And finally, biting. He asked you nicely to stop. You didn't. He had to become less polite. I think that's fair enough.
What happens too in a huge amount of cases is that by the time the dog starts growling, the owner gets angry, and shouts at or slaps the dog. Now the dog has confirmation that he was right to be worried, and right to be trying to ask you to stop.
Worse again, punishing the early warning system can make a dog give up using it altogether, so he goes straight from zero to bite.
These are your "unprovoked" bites. They may seem unprovoked, but when you look at it a bit deeper, they rarely are.
Dogs don't bite for no reason. There is almost always something that we're doing, or have done, that makes the dog feel the need to bite. And THAT'S what needs to be addressed, not the dog's reaction to it. It can be quite complex, this series of cues and predictors which force a dog to become aggressive with us, but certainly, slapping the dog is not the way to go. A neighbour of mine rescued a dog with a history of being slapped and kicked. He inadvertently forced the dog into a psychological corner recently, and she growled. In shock, he raised his hand to hit her, and she bit him. Hard. Now, of course he was upset, but in fairness to him, can now see what he did and why she reacted as she did. But it just goes to show where slapping a dog can end up.

mr bungle.

Very informative post,I think it will help me to understand my dogs a bit better!
Thanks

DBB

mr bungle. wrote: »

Very informative post,I think it will help me to understand my dogs a bit better!
Thanks

Great! I'll have a look around later for some good websites which will help you explore these things in a little more depth, the more you learn, the more interesting it all gets!
I'm on my phone now but when I get on my laptop later, it'll be easier to have a look. Though I suspect there are others here who can link to some good stuff too.

kylith

mr bungle. wrote: »

Would anyone slap their dog if they were bitten

You can never predict how you will react in a situation in which you yourself may be frightened or in pain.

What I can say is that I have been bitten by one of my dogs twice, by putting myself between her and another dog which she was trying to get to. I stepped between them just as she lunged because I'd rather she bit me than land me with massive vet bills. Both times the skin was broken, and at no point did hitting her cross my mind.

For a puppy: absolutely not. They are babies and don't know any better.

hfallada

When our dog misbeheaved we put her in our downstairs bathroom for a max of 2 mins(dogs forget they have done something wrong if its any longer) and she no longer misbeheaves

DBB

ShaShaBear wrote: »

sneaking in a half crouch and slowly slipping a tongue out to pick up a biscuit sitting on a saucer on the coffee table.

*snigger*
:-)