I need feminism because...

Morag

Nope that thread was set up for people to express how they feel/think they need feminism as you don't then I don't' get why you don't start a separate thread.

fits

clairefontaine wrote: »

I don't know why you are bringing up Sweden. I don't want to pay 80% in taxes and live in one of the most depressive cultures in the world, with one of the highest suicide rates do you? Nor would I want that much government interference.

I just would like to say, this is well off the mark. I don't live in Sweden, I do live in Finland though. I have just enjoyed an evening swimming in the river after work. It has been sunny and hot for the last six weeks.

Never have I experienced such a family friendly, family-centric society. I am a researcher and two of my male colleagues have taken extended parental leave in the last year (5 months and two months). They genuinely share parenting equally as far as I have seen. The childcare and education standards are the envy of the world.

Oh yeah, and (from Wikipedia)
"The total income taxes including the mandatory insurance fees were 29.8% for an average yearly income of 37,400 € in 2010"

They were also the second country in the world to give women the vote and are generally a trailblazer in gender equality.

fits

Just found this article. Ivana Bacik arguing for paid paternity leave for men. Having seen such a system working in practice, I strongly agree with her.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-we-must-introduce-paternity-leave-%e2%80%93-for-the-sake-of-women-too-299313-Dec2011/

fits

This thread is about FEMINISM! If you want to start a thread or a movement about father's rights feel free. I would support that. But I am not going to start it!

And post I was replying to, magically disappeared.

The Corinthian

fits wrote: »

This thread is about FEMINISM! If you want to start a thread or a movement about father's rights feel free. I would support that. But I am not going to start it!

I was responding with reference to Ivana Bacik's politics, not father's rights - bizarrely, you can mention the topic, but the moment anyone you disagree with does, even if it is not the subject of what they're discussing, it becomes whataboutary to be censored or shouted down.

And post I was replying to, magically disappeared.

I deleted it almost immediately after I posted it because I decided there was little or no point in posting it here.

When you reach a point in a discussion, so entrenched, that clairefontaine effectively got called a 'gender traitor' for "setting women against women", one really has to give up.

fits

The Corinthian wrote: »

I was responding with reference to Ivana Bacik's politics, not father's rights - bizarrely, you can mention the topic, but the moment anyone you disagree with does, even if it is not the subject of what they're discussing, it becomes whataboutary to be censored or shouted down.

Is there anything in the article I linked to that you disagree with? Do you agree that paid paternity leave would benefit both genders?

AND if fathers were able to take a more active role in their infant's upbringing, it might lead to a more even balance in the family law courts, don't you agree?

Wibbs

Morag, if you have an issue with a post, report it, do not backseat moderate.
The Corinthian, you have been warned about this more than once on more than one thread, so take a week off for your trouble.

mariaalice

clairefontaine wrote: »

Sorry Morag but if you can't criticise an ideology, it's nothing more than another brainwashing cult. That is what is dangerous. Not what I am "spouting" as you so rudely put it.

This thread is about feminism, not pro choice and has a far wider reach than crisis pregnancies. Single parenting also includes divorced women who had planned pregnancies. The myopic view of feminism not to include a family perspective is what has led to all this conflict around childcare and working vs stay at home mothers. Single parents, including divorced mothers are part of this picture, but it also includes mothers, fathers, divorced, single, and married.

The crisis pregnancy picture pushes yet anther myopic view of single parenting and one income households. Everyone is one argument, one affair, one nervous breakdown, one episode of chronic malaise from finding themselves in a one income household. The western rates of divorce are phenomenal. No one can or should think they are invulnerable to this. Do I expect feminism to solve this? God no. But I will point out its part in it.

So no, I'm not too concerned about high heels or my boobs, but I am concerned about the roots of poverty connected to the breakdown of the family. It would appear to me to be a much bigger fish to fry.

I looked at you links and they seem to be all American, its true loan parenting mean you are more likely to live in poverty, but not always my sister was a loan parent with very little involvement form the father and she was no badly off at all as teachers are relatively well paid, nor was I badly off after I separated from my first husband( my children's father was very involved after we separated ), you can't compare Irish society to USA we have a welfare state and a different culture family is still very important here, we don't have the same rate of divorce etc, ultimately what you earn mostly come down to your education. After an initial surge Irish divorce rates have stabilise, again I think father involvement post separation is down to the sort of man their are in the first place.

clairefontaine

Feminism and pro life have this in common. Both encourage single motherhood. Neither have addressed their role in one of the major causes of widespread poverty.

Maryalice, respectfully a welfare state is also poverty. Just wait till Irish mammies get their slash and burn from the government. It's coming. The RC church is a patriarchy. We don't have accurate statistics on divorce as there are all these separated people who never got divorced and started new families.

I can't see how you can claim a €900 a month crèche fee nation is a family value nation.

Historically, feminism was about he redundancy of men, so I can't see why you can't mention it. Funnily a lot f feminism was about men, so it seems odd that it should be considered off topic.

Oops there's me expecting reason again, my bad.

mariaalice

Feminisms is a broad church and you can be a feminism and not subscribe to every feminist agenda, again Ireland is not the US. Crèche fees should be subsidised through tax credits.

clairefontaine

mariaalice wrote: »

Feminisms is a broad church and you can be a feminism and not subscribe to every feminist agenda, again Ireland is not the US. Crèche fees should be subsidised through tax credits.

Ah so the tax payer should cover it. Re appropriation of wealth?

No Ireland is not the US, but that is hardly the point. Feminism is a global ideology.

To think the same knock on effects don't happen in Ireland is misguided. Or maybe it's because Ireland is still a patriarchal run theocracy is the reason it doesn't? And that is assuming it doesn't.

fits

Claire fontaine, I am having some difficulty trying to figure out the kind of society you want? Is it a return to single income families?


Of course that would have some benefits but it can also be very risky for the individuals involved... both men and women no?

bluewolf

bluewolf wrote: »

Made affordable how?

clairefontaine wrote: »

Ah so the tax payer should cover it. Re appropriation of wealth?

How do you want childcare made affordable?

clairefontaine

bluewolf wrote: »

How do you want childcare made affordable?

I'm not an economist. I can't answer that.

clairefontaine

fits wrote: »

Claire fontaine, I am having some difficulty trying to figure out the kind of society you want? Is it a return to single income families?


Of course that would have some benefits but it can also be very risky for the individuals involved... both men and women no?

I'm not proposing a utopia. I'm saying feminism hasn't been the answer and brought about a host of consequences with it because it is faction obsessed and partial.

fits

clairefontaine wrote: »

I'm not proposing a utopia. I'm saying feminism hasn't been the answer and brought about a host of consequences with it because it is faction obsessed and partial.

Hmm. Well obviously, in the first instance, I don't agree. Feminism has brought a huge improvement to the lives of women in the west (contraception, divorce, votes etc)

But secondly, I think its a good idea that if you're not happy with things the way they are, that people have constructive ideas about how to solve it. You just seem very negative about anything which has been suggested in this thread.

clairefontaine

fits wrote: »

Hmm. Well obviously, in the first instance, I don't agree. Feminism has brought a huge improvement to the lives of women in the west (contraception, divorce, votes etc)

But secondly, I think its a good idea that if you're not happy with things the way they are, that people have constructive ideas about how to solve it. You just seem very negative about anything which has been suggested in this thread.

I have repeatedly suggested a more family based approach.m

Make things issue based, not gender partisan based.

fits

clairefontaine wrote: »

I have repeatedly suggested a more family based approach.m

Make things issue based, not gender partisan based.

Well to my idea of things if feminism reaches its goals, society will be more family friendly... as it is in the Nordic countries.

But I think we have very different ideas about what feminism means.

clairefontaine

bluewolf wrote: »

You surely can if you're attacking everything else as "tax payers paying"

I already said I can't. I'm not an economist.

Why are you telling me I can, when I already said I can't.

I identified a problem, doesn't mean I can solve it. Respect that.

eviltwin

Here's an interesting insight into what life might have been like if it weren't for feminism

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/How-things-have-changed---ten-things-that-Irish-women-could-not-do-in-1970s-183526621.html

For these reasons alone I am very grateful to feminism

Delirium

eviltwin wrote: »

Here's an interesting insight into what life might have been like if it weren't for feminism

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/How-things-have-changed---ten-things-that-Irish-women-could-not-do-in-1970s-183526621.html

For these reasons alone I am very grateful to feminism

My mother lost her job in the county council after she married my dad. Even though she would have been considered the person with the more stable job (dad was self-employed in a sector that could be tough at the best of times). Financially, they would have been better off if they hadn't married.

clairefontaine

eviltwin wrote: »

Here's an interesting insight into what life might have been like if it weren't for feminism

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/How-things-have-changed---ten-things-that-Irish-women-could-not-do-in-1970s-183526621.html

For these reasons alone I am very grateful to feminism

You mean if it weren't for the EU.

Women could do alot of those things before it became a papal state in 1916.

pharmaton

clairefontaine wrote: »

Families have been forgotten because it never paid attention to motherhood, only pursued your rights and obligations not to be a mother or wife.

While the baby boomers where burning their bras, the kids were microwaving Heinz beans left on the counter as they let themselves in from school. These kids are now grown up and helicoptering their kids. This would be now my generation raising kids. These kids will be the most spoilt kids in history due to over compensation. Be scared for who will be running things up the road. Wussy spoiled kids.

Feminists love single mothers because they are freed from the patriarchal shackles/slavery that is marriage, even if their kids are living on Heinz beans and in poverty.

Men also love feminism because they too are freed from the the shackles of marriage. When I heard all these gay men wanted to get married, I thought it might be the apocalypse. Feminists for so long moaned about marriage and now gay men want to get married. Both on the left, one day hate marriage the next day lobby for it. Whatever, it's not like I ever expected it to make sense.

Then you had them putting down the 50s housewife and now the burkha is alternative feminism. Go figure.

They are a chaotic divisive mess.

Thank god for microwaves.

pharmaton

I actually want to respond to some of your issues but I genuinely don't feel it would be worth my time or energy.

Mod

This thread has been derailed enough. The thread title is simple. "I need feminism because....." that has been sufficiently ruined for the OP and it ends now.

If anyone wants to start a thread on the pros and cons of feminism go right ahead, any further such discussion in this thread will result in mod action.

Fair warning.

Obliq

pharmaton wrote: »

Thank god for microwaves.

You needn't thank god pharmaton! I need feminism because Marie Curie still doesn't get the credit she deserves for microwaves

....and all the rest.

Sala

I need feminism because I live in a country where a large portion of society would rather let me die than terminate a pregnancy, and don't want to give me any choice in the matter.

nesf

Obliq wrote: »

You needn't thank god pharmaton! I need feminism because Marie Curie still doesn't get the credit she deserves for microwaves

....and all the rest.

What did she do in relation to microwaves? All the work I've ever seen attributed to her was in a very different area of science.

Obliq

nesf wrote: »

What did she do in relation to microwaves? All the work I've ever seen attributed to her was in a very different area of science.

Yeah, true. She is famous for her pioneering research on radioactivity. However, it was a point I was making about why we need feminism, so as to restart the OP's discussion in a slightly humorous way....my bad, eh? :rolleyes:

nesf

Obliq wrote: »

Yeah, true. She is famous for her pioneering research on radioactivity. However, it was a point I was making about why we need feminism, so as to restart the OP's discussion in a slightly humorous way....my bad, eh? :rolleyes:

Honestly, people are ignorant enough of science and Marie Curie's work that it's not clear that's a joke.

Obliq

nesf wrote: »

Honestly, people are ignorant enough of science and Marie Curie's work that it's not clear that's a joke.

Fair enough, you're right. I feel bad now and I'm sorry. Please excuse my ignorance and perpetuation of ignorance towards women in science and all other fields of excellence and learning. Better?

nesf

Obliq wrote: »

Fair enough, you're right. I feel bad now and I'm sorry. Please excuse my ignorance and perpetuation of ignorance towards women in science and all other fields of excellence and learning. Better?

Obliq

nesf wrote: »

Great. Hope that cheered up your morning.

B0jangles

Let's pretend you said Hedy Lamarr instead and we can all be happy

(I know her work did not relate to microwave cookery, but c'mon, she did work with microwave technology)

Everyone should read about Hedy Lamarr, she was awesome but sadly quite unrecognised except as an actor in her lifetime

IvyTheTerrible

B0jangles wrote: »

Let's pretend you said Hedy Lamarr instead and we can all be happy

(I know her work did not relate to microwave cookery, but c'mon, she did work with microwave technology)

Everyone should read about Hedy Lamarr, she was awesome but sadly quite unrecognised except as an actor in her lifetime

Well you learn something new every day! Never knew that about her.

iwantmydinner

I've just read through this thread and, among other things, is in and of itself a reason I still need feminism.

I need it because despite my title and role being exactly the same as my male predecessor's, I still get called 'the girl in the office' and am expected to perform receptionist/admin/PA/tea-making duties, which he wasn't.

I need it because I'm sick of hearing about female rape victims being questioned about their sexual history and dress. Male rape victims, to my knowledge, do not suffer the same questioning; nor does their clothing come under scrutiny in the ensuing investigation, trial, or surrounding commentary.

I need it because there are far, far too few women in leadership roles in politics, business, academia, the law, etc.

... I could go on. I also want to point out that just because I really, really want to see change on these issues, does NOT mean that I hate men, think men are redundant, or that I don't care about mens' rights issues. For example, I fully believe the status quo in family law courts should be changed so that there is no such thing as a default judgement in favour of the mother.

But - let's remember which gender dominates the legal profession for a minute, and has done since the first courtroom was built.

Morag

I need feminism because despite being at a conference which was entitled
Empowering Women Through Secularism I still had to suffer the hostile arguments which were
'What about the men' from secularist and atheists whom consider themselves enlightened.

Morag

I need feminism as I fear this would happen to me or a family memember

Support needed, all women have human rights. but is is harder for migrant women to get support or get their stories told.

Inquest into the death of Bimbo Onanuga, July 5 support needed.

The second part of the inquest into the death of 32-year-old Bimbo Onanuga opens in Dublin's District Coroner's Court on July 5. Bimbo, Nigeria, died on 4 March 2010 in the Mater's intensive care unit. Three days before, at seven months pregnant, she had attended the Rotunda Hospital. She was told that her child had died in the womb and was sent away. She returned to the Rotunda on 3 March, was transferred to the Mater where she later died.

iwantmydinner

Morag wrote: »

I need feminism because despite being at a conference which was entitled
Empowering Women Through Secularism I still had to suffer the hostile arguments which were
'What about the men' from secularist and atheists whom consider themselves enlightened.

Jesus, that's depressing.

Feathers

iwantmydinner wrote: »

I also want to point out that just because I really, really want to see change on these issues, does NOT mean that I hate men, think men are redundant, or that I don't care about mens' rights issues. For example, I fully believe the status quo in family law courts should be changed so that there is no such thing as a default judgement in favour of the mother.

But - let's remember which gender dominates the legal profession for a minute, and has done since the first courtroom was built.

Can I ask why you feel the need to post this bit, as a matter of interest?

The first paragraph above seems to be saying that you're aware and considerate of men's rights issues & that being a feminist doesn't contradict that, which is great. A poster in a different thread linked to a piece, that essentially said modern feminism is against patriarchy, not against men, & that feminism was an ally of men in a push for more neutral gender expectations. Your paragraph here would seem to tie into that same sentiment.

The bold bit that follows though seems to be connecting men today, who are pushing for rights within family law, with the 20th century lawmakers who gave us the status quo. Would you see these two groups as connected?

Personally, I'd think that men today are just as much a victim of the status quo as women — I'd consider that to be a common view by men's rights groups and feminists, but if you'd agree, it definitely runs against the last part of your post. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on it.

Mod

Feathers infracted for ignoring mod instruction. Do not post in this thread again please.

sunshine and showers

I need feminism because...

Mod

Sorry YumCha, I've deleted your last post, we can't discuss ongoing criminal investigations for legal reasons.

dublin99

I need feminism because men are still dominant and instrumental in the world of women health issues/ medicine.

I am horrified to find out , through reports on the Bimbo Onanuga death inquest, that Irish Maternity Hospitals like the Rotunda still use Cytotec to induce labour. It is an orally administered drug for stomach ulcer and is not licenced to use as an induction drug by insertion in the vagina! Manufacturer themselves have warned about it. The dangers of uterine rupture associated with the unlicensed use of this drug is well documented - especially for women who may have uterine scar tissues eg from previous procedure such as surgical abortion (TOP) or C-section.

Expectant mums should be made aware of this risk. This potentially affects thousands of women who is being induced for labour.

YumCha

I need feminism because:

In the UK, a 13-year-old victim was described by a judge as a 'sexual predator' in giving her abuser a suspended sentence.

Here, a rape and kidnapping victim was accused of being an escort, dominatrix and thief in open court - thankfully the jury found him guilty on all counts.

Dolbert

I need feminism because a young Irish girl is being subjected to an online witch-hunt for being photographed performing a sex act at a concert. Grown adults are setting up twitter and Facebook pages to vent their violent misogyny on a (possibly underage) girl who made a stupid decision, while the reciever of said sex act is a 'lad', a 'legend' etc.

jaffacakesyum

Dolbert wrote: »

I need feminism because a young Irish girl is being subjected to an online witch-hunt for being photographed performing a sex act at a concert. Grown adults are setting up twitter and Facebook pages to vent their violent misogyny on a (possibly underage) girl who made a stupid decision, while the reciever of said sex act is a 'lad', a 'legend' etc.

Words cannot describe how píssed off I am about this.

To add to it, not only is this sexism, it's also online bullying. "Ordinary" "sound" people I know are liking pages on Facebook related to this, basically promoting the sharing of this photo, humiliating the poor girl. And only weeks earlier there were statuses and expressions of "oh cyber bullying is awful, look what bullying on ask.fm did to that poor girl" and yet here you are laughing about jokes about "Slane girl" and how she's such a slut and the guy is a lucky bastard? Ugh, drives me insane.

Morag

I honestly hope that the dept of Public Prosecutions get involves and we seen a massive amounts of charges related to this for those who have shared the pictures.
The Public needs to learn that they are traceable online and there are consequences.

jaffacakesyum

Morag wrote: »

I honestly hope that the dept of Public Prosecutions get involves and we seen a massive amounts of charges related to this for those who have shared the pictures.
The Public needs to learn that they are traceable online and there are consequences.

When pigs fly

I don't know, maybe I'm being pessimistic, maybe it's getting better. And I did read a headline on the paper the other day about how police are going to question bullies on ask.fm about that case of the poor girl committing suicide.

But I don't know...I just get the impression that online companies and police forces are not doing enough to combat online abuse. People need to be held accountable for their actions.

Morag

Morag wrote: »

I honestly hope that the dept of Public Prosecutions get involves and we seen a massive amounts of charges related to this for those who have shared the pictures.
The Public needs to learn that they are traceable online and there are consequences.

Looks like the Guards are on the case anyway.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gardai-investigating-slane-girl-incident-604128.html

That poor family, I'd say she's in a very fragile place at the moment.