2nd fix plumbing

crazy_kenny

Hi all,

I'm in the process of buying a house at the moment. The second fix plumbing is not completed. All the rads are in place but that's it. How easy is it for a plumber to take over a job started by someone else?

Dtp79

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm in the process of buying a house at the moment. The second fix plumbing is not completed. All the rads are in place but that's it. How easy is it for a plumber to take over a job started by someone else?

It really depends on the first fix, which could be a disaster or be done quite well. Is your house in an estate?

crazy_kenny

Dtp79 wrote: »

It really depends on the first fix, which could be a disaster or be done quite well. Is your house in an estate?

No its a dormer bungalow. In the utility downstairs there is loads of qualplex pipes I'm assuming are going to the rads. However upstairs is where the tank and cylinder are located. Does this make sense?

shane0007

Yes that's pipe in pipe to each rad. Wouldn't take long sort what's what. Just make sure everything is pressure tested.

Dtp79

crazy_kenny wrote: »

No its a dormer bungalow. In the utility downstairs there is loads of qualplex pipes I'm assuming are going to the rads. However upstairs is where the tank and cylinder are located. Does this make sense?

Being honest it's looks as rough as a bears arse. The pipes aren't lagged which is shocking, and what's worse is the tops of the pipes aren't even taped off to stop dirt and debris entering the pipework. Show a pic of the hotpress if you can

crazy_kenny

Dtp79 wrote: »

Being honest it's looks as rough as a bears arse. The pipes aren't lagged which is shocking, and what's worse is the tops of the pipes aren't even taped off to stop dirt and debris entering the pipework. Show a pic of the hotpress if you can

Don't have picture of hotpress. Not sure the guy did it was a qualified plumber probably explains it. Is it possible to separate into zones with that set up? I am using oil boiler for rads and to heat water. I will install solar at a later date and want an extra coil in the cylinder for this. Would I need a 2 or 3 coil tank?

corkplumber

@crazy kenny. I know that photo makes the pipework look rough. However the good thing is the pipes are protected from the cement and when the manifold is put on that will tidy up the pipework.

I done a house recently for a friend of mine in a similar situation as yourself in Waterford. He got a great deal in my opinion. Defo make money in the long term.

However , I had no major problems with the 1st fix. Before I commenced I pressure tested every thing, checked for timbers for hanging appliances ect. I would have designed things different myself if I was starting from scratch. However I had no issues that would cause great concern with the 1st fix.

Dtp79

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Don't have picture of hotpress. Not sure the guy did it was a qualified plumber probably explains it. Is it possible to separate into zones with that set up? I am using oil boiler for rads and to heat water. I will install solar at a later date and want an extra coil in the cylinder for this. Would I need a 2 or 3 coil tank?

If its just oil and solar then you just need 2 coils. I'd recommend getting a third coil as a spare just in case you ever decide in future to put in a solid fuel stove. It's easy enough to zone the pipework the way it is at the moment but I would definately get the pipework flushed beforehand because the original. " qualified plumber" never taped off the the pipe ends.

crazy_kenny

Anyone hazard a guesstimate how much the 2nd fix would cost? There are 12 rads and are all hanging and connected. As far as I can see the manifold needs to be connected, copper cylinder, water tank and boiler. The house is 1600ft2 and I was thinking of getting a grant vortex 50-90 condensing boiler and a grant triple coil 250 litre cylinder.

crazy_kenny

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Anyone hazard a guesstimate how much the 2nd fix would cost? There are 12 rads and are all hanging and connected. As far as I can see the manifold needs to be connected, copper cylinder, water tank and boiler. The house is 1600ft2 and I was thinking of getting a grant vortex 50-90 condensing boiler and a grant triple coil 250 litre cylinder.

Anyone?

shane0007

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Anyone?

Too difficult to price over a forum. Too many unforeseens that could only be determined on inspection.

crazy_kenny

Was thinking about installing LPG supply instead of oil. Anyone have opinions?

corkplumber

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Was thinking about installing LPG supply instead of oil. Anyone have opinions?

one word sentence to advice you.


dont.

Dtp79

Jaysus nothin wrong with LPG if the system is controlled properly. Alot to be said for a modulating boiler

corkplumber

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Anyone hazard a guesstimate how much the 2nd fix would cost? There are 12 rads and are all hanging and connected. As far as I can see the manifold needs to be connected, copper cylinder, water tank and boiler. The house is 1600ft2 and I was thinking of getting a grant vortex 50-90 condensing boiler and a grant triple coil 250 litre cylinder.

ballpark for the listed supply and fit. 6k

corkplumber

Dtp79 wrote: »

Jaysus nothin wrong with LPG if the system is controlled properly. Alot to be said for a modulating boiler

agree. however my preference would be oil over lpg.

shane0007

corkplumber wrote: »

one word sentence to advice you.


dont.

Why?

Cost per kwh is pretty much the same as oil but you have the added benefit & savings of modulating boilers with gas.

corkplumber

shane0007 wrote: »

Why?

Cost per kwh is pretty much the same as oil but you have the added benefit & savings of modulating boilers with gas.

i could be wrong. but the last time I checked the cost per therm of lpg was more than oil. Allowing for the rental ect .

another factor is the way both products can be purchased. you can buy 5 or 10 gallon drum of oil from a local garage . lpg bulks are minimum. cold nights , money is short, need heating.

shane0007

You pay more per litre when buying in small quantities for oil.
You can also pay more & connect a 47kg propane bottle with LPG also!

corkplumber

shane0007 wrote: »

You pay more per litre when buying in small quantities for oil.
You can also pay more & connect a 47kg propane bottle with LPG also!

you have to set the system up for the small bottles of lpg. when its not been supplied direct, we all take the risk of been caught out. rather rely on the garage for oil with no additional set up costs.

shane0007

corkplumber wrote: »

you have to set the system up for the small bottles of lpg. when its not been supplied direct, we all take the risk of been caught out. rather rely on the garage for oil with no additional set up costs.

You can connect upto 3 x 47kg bottles with auto changeover valve without requirement of OPSO & would be very simple to set initially. 4 or more install an OPSO.
1 x 47kg bottle can provide a takeoff of upto 34kw.

My point is, LPG is a very viable option even for people who wish to buy in small quantities.

corkplumber

well to be honest I dont do many lpg installations. if its not mains gas I always advice go for kero. maybe im just set in me ways. the last lpg I installed was commercial. my 2 babies is always 1 mains gas and 2 kero for the ole domestic clients. but the majority of installations iv been asked to do in the last few years are stoves and solid fuel boilers. I only ever fitted 2 biofuel systems in me whole carer.

shane0007

I have never set up a boiler from a gas bottle either.
I was just making a point. The other downside of this would be the cost per kwh from a 47kg bottle would be price prohibitive.
So, agreed if small quantities are required frequently, then kerosene would be the way to go.

corkplumber

well id say eventually biofuel will be the future. conversion with oil burners , the way forward . id say.


then again. im probably talkin sh1t

but I remember about 10 years ago I done the oftec. the talk at the time was the biofuel. has there been any progress in that respect shane or is it a pipe dream?

shane0007

OFTEC is very wrapped up & determined to run with biofuel. I can't see it happening & IMHO is the wrong way to go for a number of reasons:
1. To grow rape & the likes, it will takeover food farm land & is bad for world food production. Already the UK experienced a drop in their food production because of incentives to grow for biofuels. So not good for long term.
2. At the moment it was increased from B5 to B7. Only a 2% increase but a 40% increase from what it was! Already playing havoc with farm machinery left idle over the winter months. All the rubbers, lines, etc. must be replaced. OFTEC want to get it to B30. They even mentioned that their long term goal was B70!
3. Biofuels are hygroscopic, therefore they attract water and therefore bacteria. Sludge from this will be and is a major issue.
4. Finally, a bi-product of biofuel is glycerine. A harmless product but will destroy burners/engines. 100 litres of the bio part of the fuel (B30 - so 30% - 30 litres) would produce 1% glycerine. So 0.3 litres of glycerine would be produced from 100 litres of B30. This needs to be drawn off from the tank so a draw off point would be required from the tank, i.e. tanks would have to be redesigned. Glycerine can be thrown on compost heaps but the catchment of it needs to be dealt with. It is also re-occurring so if drawn off & the existing 100 litres is not used, it will produce another 0.3 litres of glycerine and the process starts again. So imagine the issue with large storage in low demand times.

corkplumber

fair play to shane your on the ball.

i suppose its hard enough to get clients to buy bunded tanks. so the thought of trying to price a larger than usuall tank. would be a mission in its self.

crazy_kenny

Ok so I think i'm going to stick to oil.

Whats the difference between grant euroflame and vortex?

Also do ye know are warmflow boilers any good?

corkplumber

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Ok so I think i'm going to stick to oil.

Whats the difference between grant euroflame and vortex?

Also do ye know are warmflow boilers any good?

my pref be the votex. but i think shanes the man for the spec. ill leave that to him.

shane0007

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Ok so I think i'm going to stick to oil.

Whats the difference between grant euroflame and vortex?

Also do ye know are warmflow boilers any good?

Efficiency & a couple of other things.

Euroflame has approx 1/3 less size in the secondary (condensing) heat exchanger so higher flue temps and therefore higher losses to outside rather than to the system.
Number of turbolators in the Euroflame is also 1/3 less. SO a 36kw Vortex has 33 turbulotors, the Euroflame has 22.
Outdoor Vortex has a built in frost thermostat.
Euroflame does not, so one must be fitted.
Euroflame is approx €100 + VAT cheaper than the Vortex.

For the difference in cost, definitely go with the Vortex. Long term cheaper to run, more heat to the system, better for the environment & frost protection already built in, if outdoor model.

crazy_kenny

Thanks for all the information guys. I might have a few more questions over the coming weeks.

corkplumber

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Thanks for all the information guys. I might have a few more questions over the coming weeks.

your right to. get as much info and advice before hand.


the main thing is to know how to use your system , when its fitted. to get the full benifit from it. a lack of consumer knowledge in that area is IMO the biggest cost factor to clients.

a well planned heating system saves money. zones , stats ect.

crazy_kenny

Where are the best locations to put heating control stats? Is it a good idea to have one in the upstairs hallway or is it more beneficial in a bedroom? Also what is a good brand copper 3 coil cylinder?

shane0007

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Where are the best locations to put heating control stats? Is it a good idea to have one in the upstairs hallway or is it more beneficial in a bedroom? Also what is a good brand copper 3 coil cylinder?

Best location for a room stat is the room that would be of average general heat for the zone it is controlling, such as for ground floor the hallway (kitchen not good as cooking, living room not good as fires, stoves, etc) & for upstairs the master bedroom. Heat can travel to landing via stairs from downstairs.
Stats should be located at 1.5m high & never above radiators, near windows/doors where sunlight can affect them & never within 300mm from a corner.
Much better to go with a stainless steel cylinder for heat loss reasons. Joule are excellent cylinders. For copper, Coppercraft are good.

corkplumber

shane0007 wrote: »

Too difficult to price over a forum. Too many unforeseens that could only be determined on inspection.

shanes on the ball . if your close to cork i can quote on viewing . no obligation . im sure if your in dublin. shane. or another can doveze same . just pm.

shane0007

corkplumber wrote: »

shanes on the ball . if your close to cork i can quote on viewing . no obligation . im sure if your in dublin. shane. or another can doveze same . just pm.

Some of us are also known for invading Cork ;-) lol

Dtp79

shane0007 wrote: »

Best location for a room stat is the room that would be of average general heat for the zone it is controlling, such as for ground floor the hallway (kitchen not good as cooking, living room not good as fires, stoves, etc) & for upstairs the master bedroom. Heat can travel to landing via stairs from downstairs.
Stats should be located at 1.5m high & never above radiators, near windows/doors where sunlight can affect them & never within 300mm from a corner.
Much better to go with a stainless steel cylinder for heat loss reasons. Joule are excellent cylinders. For copper, Coppercraft are good.

I'd go with coppercraft for copper too. Can't judge joule on their stainless steel cylinders but I'd never fit another of their copper ones

corkplumber

copper craft is not the same as they use to be. they dont make the cylinders any more. they import them. i use to go to ballyfermot and buy them to do work in cork. they moved to tallaght and only sell them. be careful. i havnt bought of them over 3 years now.

corkplumber

sorry should have mentioned . i use to bring cylindes there to be insulated . great job they done. cant find a pláče does it now . i use to put a coil in the old cylinders . much better cylinders. they would insulate them for me

corkplumber

did not read post fully. apolgies. but i wouldnt trust there copper pípe either . unless someone can tell me who they are importing from. its defo not the supplier of old.

scudo2

shane0007 wrote: »

Some of us are also known for invading Cork ;-) lol

Hi, just to say I let the air out of any foreign service van I could find in Passage last week.
Hope I gave you a little let down Shane!!

shane0007

scudo2 wrote: »

Hi, just to say I let the air out of any foreign service van I could find in Passage last week.
Hope I gave you a little let down Shane!!

I anticipated that you scoundrels would do something like so I swapped my plates with the Cork boyo's working next door. I had a bit a giggle to myself driving off watching a few heads being scratched.....

shane0007

corkplumber wrote: »

did not read post fully. apolgies. but i wouldnt trust there copper pípe either . unless someone can tell me who they are importing from. its defo not the supplier of old.

Kingspan own CopperCraft now.

scudo2

corkplumber wrote: »

copper craft is not the same as they use to be. they dont make the cylinders any more. they import them. i use to go to ballyfermot and buy them to do work in cork. they moved to tallaght and only sell them. be careful. i havnt bought of them over 3 years now.

Fair play to you. A lot of effort to do good work that most costomers wouldn't have a clue about or appericate.
Or did you make a fortune this way and pay off the villa?

Only joking.

ps. I always thought that baths should be sprayed too.
Anybody agree?

Dtp79

scudo2 wrote: »

Fair play to you. A lot of effort to do good work that most costomers wouldn't have a clue about or appericate.
Or did you make a fortune this way and pay off the villa?

Only joking.

ps. I always thought that baths should be sprayed too.
Anybody agree?

Totally agree. On my own bath I've packed fibreglass around it as an insulator then put on the panel

scudo2

Dtp79 wrote: »

Totally agree. On my own bath I've packed fibreglass around it as an insulator then put on the panel

Dito

sky6

Just a useless bit of knowledge. Joule operate from the same premises that Coppercraft used in Ballyfermot. Joule do both Copper and Stainless cyls.
They still insulate them in House. I was there last year looking at them being insulated.

crazy_kenny

So I finally got the keys to the new house and got the plumber in for a look. He said I have to go for a pressurised system as no space above 2nd floor for tank fed system. He also advised splitting house into a zone for upstairs one for downstairs and one for just heating water. He also mentioned using a tank with a submersible pumped dropped into it, I'm assuming is for heating system. Is it a good idea having this upstairs in attic space? Would it be noisy when in bed etc.

rightjob!

crazy_kenny wrote: »

So I finally got the keys to the new house and got the plumber in for a look. He said I have to go for a pressurised system as no space above 2nd floor for tank fed system. He also advised splitting house into a zone for upstairs one for downstairs and one for just heating water. He also mentioned using a tank with a submersible pumped dropped into it, I'm assuming is for heating system. Is it a good idea having this upstairs in attic space? Would it be noisy when in bed etc.

definately a good idea to zone.
the submersible pump hes talking about will be fitted in the tank to supply you hots colds,so yes it will be noisy.
if you can put a pump in the utility room or somewhere that you wontt hear it.

crazy_kenny

rightjob! wrote: »

definately a good idea to zone.
the submersible pump hes talking about will be fitted in the tank to supply you hots colds,so yes it will be noisy.
if you can put a pump in the utility room or somewhere that you wontt hear it.

In the meantime I was talking to someone else and they said to supply downstairs with a gravity fed system from tank and supply upstairs with a negative head pump. Dont really understand this tbh.

sky6

If you do go with the pump get a vessel also put in. Otherwise every time someone opens a tap the pump will come on. Drive you mad after a while especially during the night.

crazy_kenny

sky6 wrote: »

If you do go with the pump get a vessel also put in. Otherwise every time someone opens a tap the pump will come on. Drive you mad after a while especially during the night.

Would that vessel store water and when it drops below certain point pump refills again?